Author Topic: Justify your torrent downloads!  (Read 2826 times)

Tapeworm

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Justify your torrent downloads!
« on: April 21, 2009, 03:12:27 AM »
Lets hear the rationalizations why it isn't wrong.

I will provide my own reasons in the fullness of time.

Grape Ape

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2009, 10:10:54 AM »
It's stealing, no matter how you slice it. 

But, I have no problem downloading old stuff that I may have purchased in CD or even cassette tape form that no longer works.  I'm not going to pay twice for it.

But I can easily see the other side of it.  For the longest time, before the internet, it wasn't uncommon to buy a CD that had 1-2 decent songs combined with 8 or so piles of shit.  The consumer got ripped off a lot in the past, so they might not have any qualms about getting back at the industry.
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24KT

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2009, 03:52:46 PM »
Not claiming to download torrents, ...but the way I see it, ...it comes down to simple commerce & greed.

Technology has evolved at a pace that smashes previous paradigmns and it has caused previous monopolys to lose their hold on the market. Rather than innovate, they are attempting to retain their hold on the market through legislation.

Lets look at this from a historical point of view.

If you owned a copy of a book for instance, and suggested to your friend that s/he should read it, they had 2 choices. They could go to the bookstore and buy the book, or you could choose to share your copy with him. I don't think any book publisher would raise a ruckus if you chose to share your copy with your friend. It is yours to do with as you want.  the challenge for you however, is you may not get the book back, ...and if you do, it may not be in as good a condition as it was when you first lent it out.

The same goes for vinyl records, etc., etc., often returned with scratches, ...if returned at all.

Well, the industry rushed to bring to market forms of media they wanted to profit with, however, did not have an adequate means to ensure what they were bringing to market could not be duplicated.

Now, when someone wants to review something, ...the technology exists that enables you to share it with them without any risk to yourself of not seeing the article again, or any deterioration of it's original quality or condition. Kind of like seeds.

The R IAA & the M PAA is attempting to do the same thing monsanto is attempting to do with seeds.

Canada long ago addressed this issue with the advent of cassette tapes. Recording artists complained that consumers were taping their music off the radio using blank cassette tapes and as such artists were not earning the royalties on their music that they should be. So the canadian government, realizing there was no way to stop a consumer from taping a song off the radio, simply instituted a tax that goes onto every blank cassette tape sold. Those funds were distributed to ASCAP in order to compensate artists for their work. That precedent was applied to blank VHS tapes etc etc, and now DVDs. As technology marches forward, there is room to apply the model elsewhere.

As such, in Canada, the downloading of copyrighted materials music, movies etc for personal use is not unlawful. Redistribute for profit however, ...and your butt is toast. That is most definately stealing.

It is only in the USA where downloading is illegal because Jack Valenti was such a powerful figure, however, when you really consider what is taking place, it is not wrong. Sure, it's not very profitable for the studios etc., but it's not wrong. To classify it any other way is tantamount to making eMail illegal because it circumvents profits to the post office.

The advent of newer more efficient technologies will always negatively impact the technology that preceded it.

I have no doubt that if horse breeders had a more powerful lobby at the time, automobiles would have been deemed illegal as well, since they negatively impacted the horse trade and all the spin off cottage  & satellite industries that surrounded it.

Innovate or die. You don't think the downturn in the saddle market had a negative impact on Hérmes?
It most certainly did, but they knew the cardinal rule of business; ...Innovate or die. They're not making as many saddles as they once did, but dammit, any company that can get $4,000 - $5,000 upfront for a handbag, and then put you on a 4 - 5 year waiting list just to get delivery of that handbag is a company that knows how to innovate.
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HTexan

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2009, 04:25:34 PM »
not all torrents are illegal material. ::)
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SuperNatural

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2009, 09:42:16 PM »
Lets hear the rationalizations why it isn't wrong.

I will provide my own reasons in the fullness of time.

Well, I'm not saying it is entirely appropriate, but I have less qualms about stealing music as opposed to burning movies. 

The average Cd might cost $15,000 to make (instruments, production, studio time, etc.).  So the art form doesn't really suffer significantly from theft.  Even the smallest budget indie bands have high quality sound production.
Movies, on the other hand, can easily cost $65 million to create.  Taking the product illegally from the film industry will decrease their overall income and production value.  And the consequence of that is not something I'm willing to contribute towards only to save 8$ dollars. 

Tapeworm

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2009, 07:20:07 AM »
It's stealing, no matter how you slice it. 

But, I have no problem downloading old stuff that I may have purchased in CD or even cassette tape form that no longer works.  I'm not going to pay twice for it.

But I can easily see the other side of it.  For the longest time, before the internet, it wasn't uncommon to buy a CD that had 1-2 decent songs combined with 8 or so piles of shit.  The consumer got ripped off a lot in the past, so they might not have any qualms about getting back at the industry.


Well... maybe it's stealing & maybe it's not.  Some stuff - absolutely.  With other stuff I'm not so sure, no matter what a company or copyright law says about it.  I question the validity of these laws.

Like you, lots of my downloads are old favorites which I have paid for in the past.  I have purchased Casablanca three times in my life and currently have a purchased copy, but I will not buy it again.  If they want to change technology (like tape to cd, vhs to dvd, etc), that's not my problem.  My ticket to ride remains valid imo.

Similarly, I consider any purchase I have made which gives me an agreed upon right to view a movie, to extend to a lifetime right.  If I bought a ticket to watch Top Gun in the theatre back in 1987, I have a right to download it and watch it at will.  A studio exec might tell me to try to go see a movie twice with the same ticket and see how well I fare, but the theatre's refusal to let me in for a second viewing would only be based on the fact that they have a limited number of seats and my ass in one of them would mean one less ticket they could sell to someone who hasn't yet paid to see the film.  I have paid to see it and a portion of my ticket price went to the studio.  Viewing the film at home doesn't harm anyone's business like a second viewing in a theatre would, and I have already compensated the studio.



Not claiming to download torrents, ...but the way I see it, ...it comes down to simple commerce & greed.

Technology has evolved at a pace that smashes previous paradigmns and it has caused previous monopolys to lose their hold on the market. Rather than innovate, they are attempting to retain their hold on the market through legislation.

Lets look at this from a historical point of view.

If you owned a copy of a book for instance, and suggested to your friend that s/he should read it, they had 2 choices. They could go to the bookstore and buy the book, or you could choose to share your copy with him. I don't think any book publisher would raise a ruckus if you chose to share your copy with your friend. It is yours to do with as you want.  the challenge for you however, is you may not get the book back, ...and if you do, it may not be in as good a condition as it was when you first lent it out.

The same goes for vinyl records, etc., etc., often returned with scratches, ...if returned at all.

Well, the industry rushed to bring to market forms of media they wanted to profit with, however, did not have an adequate means to ensure what they were bringing to market could not be duplicated.

Now, when someone wants to review something, ...the technology exists that enables you to share it with them without any risk to yourself of not seeing the article again, or any deterioration of it's original quality or condition. Kind of like seeds.

The R IAA & the M PAA is attempting to do the same thing monsanto is attempting to do with seeds.

Canada long ago addressed this issue with the advent of cassette tapes. Recording artists complained that consumers were taping their music off the radio using blank cassette tapes and as such artists were not earning the royalties on their music that they should be. So the canadian government, realizing there was no way to stop a consumer from taping a song off the radio, simply instituted a tax that goes onto every blank cassette tape sold. Those funds were distributed to ASCAP in order to compensate artists for their work. That precedent was applied to blank VHS tapes etc etc, and now DVDs. As technology marches forward, there is room to apply the model elsewhere.

As such, in Canada, the downloading of copyrighted materials music, movies etc for personal use is not unlawful. Redistribute for profit however, ...and your butt is toast. That is most definately stealing.

It is only in the USA where downloading is illegal because Jack Valenti was such a powerful figure, however, when you really consider what is taking place, it is not wrong. Sure, it's not very profitable for the studios etc., but it's not wrong. To classify it any other way is tantamount to making eMail illegal because it circumvents profits to the post office.

The advent of newer more efficient technologies will always negatively impact the technology that preceded it.

I have no doubt that if horse breeders had a more powerful lobby at the time, automobiles would have been deemed illegal as well, since they negatively impacted the horse trade and all the spin off cottage  & satellite industries that surrounded it.

Innovate or die. You don't think the downturn in the saddle market had a negative impact on Hérmes?
It most certainly did, but they knew the cardinal rule of business; ...Innovate or die. They're not making as many saddles as they once did, but dammit, any company that can get $4,000 - $5,000 upfront for a handbag, and then put you on a 4 - 5 year waiting list just to get delivery of that handbag is a company that knows how to innovate.


A comprehensive answer Jag, but are you saying that it's not a question of right or wrong anymore?  I agree that torrents will be downloaded and companies had better innovate and deal with real world problems, but this doesn't negate the validity of intellectual property rights.  That's why I don't agree with your post office analogy.  Email doesn't violate anyone's property rights but downloading might.

Books and records can presumably be loaned at the owner's discrecion since the manufacturer doesn't object to the property there in being distributed in this way.  In principal, however, I think they possibly could.  The potentially exponential distribution of something by torrent download is certainly objectionable to them tho.

The Canadian tax seems odd to me.  I don't know enough to know if a DVD disc is useful only for movie copying, although that is all I have used it for.  An audio cassette tape is useful for other things though.  Maybe you just want to record your friends singing.  If so, you shouldn't have to pay a tax which subsidises music studios.  Also, someone could simply store downloads on a drive.  If your tax on discs is heavy enough, Canadians are probably leading the charge with this.  We can't charge everyone a heavy tax on their new terrabyte harddrive and give money to movie and music companies.

As a real world problem for a company trying to make a profit, I agree with your opinion that they had better just find a way to deal with it.  However, I am looking at this from the perspective of what is right or wrong, and if there is a grey area in between.  I think there are intellectual property rights which are valid and which it is wrong to violate, but they aren't nearly as extensive as some people want us to think they are.



not all torrents are illegal material. ::)

Of course not but I'm asking about copyrighted material which you feel justified in downloading.



Well, I'm not saying it is entirely appropriate, but I have less qualms about stealing music as opposed to burning movies. 

The average Cd might cost $15,000 to make (instruments, production, studio time, etc.).  So the art form doesn't really suffer significantly from theft.  Even the smallest budget indie bands have high quality sound production.
Movies, on the other hand, can easily cost $65 million to create.  Taking the product illegally from the film industry will decrease their overall income and production value.  And the consequence of that is not something I'm willing to contribute towards only to save 8$ dollars. 

As a practical matter I can appreciate what you're saying, but you still don't seem to feel justified in grabbing it.  Is there anything that you would download and feel that it was your right to do so?

Migs

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2009, 07:22:26 AM »
justify how some actors can demand 20 million dollars for a movie...

Tapeworm

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2009, 08:42:33 AM »
Ok, I reckon I can justifiably download something if:

1. I have paid for it before. 
Bought it, rented it, paid to watch it in a theatre.  If I gave my friend Joe $2 to loan me a copy of his DVD rip then that doesn't count, but any bona fide agent which I have good reason to believe has an arrangement with the studio to compensate them for my viewing counts as a-ok.  Ok in theory, I shouldn't watch it with someone who has never paid to see it or loan it to them.


2. Material made available to the public domain. 
If it's in the library then I can download it.  The only thing that changes is that I save the drive to the library & that's good for the environment ;).  If Braveheart is going to be on TV but there is a lightening strike and the power goes out, I feel ok about downloading it and watching it the next night.  You could argue that I should have to stop every 20 minutes and go watch some commercials, but I see and hear enough commercials already each day that supplementing them is absurd.


3. Culturally significant material. 
If I want to listen to some Mozart concertos, I could go to the library and get them.  But say I lived in Concord, Massachusetts and wanted to read Twain's Huckleberry Finn and find that it is banned (although it's probably not banned there anymore).  I don't think my government has the right to determine what I should be allowed to read, nor are they the final word on what is culturally significant.  I will make that determination for myself.

This does not open the door for willy-nilly downloading imo.  The latest Beyonce recording or whatever is indefensible as being culturally significant since it simply hasn't been around for long enough to make an impact. 

Consider also that a kid in a poorly funded municipality with a shitty library has just as much of a right to familiarize himself with, for example, the evolution of classical music as does a kid living near a kick ass library with an extensive collection.  Sony would disagree.  Similarly, a kid from a rich family who buys him culturally significant material which is not found in the library does not have a greater right to education (although he usually gets one) than a kid from a poor family who cannot afford to buy the same things.  The rich kid and the poor kid have the same rights.

This is sort of an aside but... there are some great fuckin' movies out there that are simply not available anymore in some places.  For example, My Dinner With Andre.  This movie deserves to be kept alive even if video stores disagree and the studio which put it out doesn't find it profitable to print any more copies.  Some things should be downloaded and shared to ensure their availabilty to others.  An argument against downloading is frequently made that it violates 'the rights of the artists' but I would bet that a true artist would applaud the continued existence of his work when businessmen who hold the legal rights to its distribution deem it to be no longer profitable.

What is culturally significant is open to debate but since this thread (and the wide world of downloads) is about personal justification, it is up to each person to honestly make that determination.



4. Educational material in general.
Knowledge should be available to anyone who wants it.  Will Hunting was wrong - your library will not provide a university level education.  At least my local library wouldn't, it is a pain in the ass compared to google, and audio and video stuff available online give a busy person a better opportunity to learn than do more time consuming books.

I regularly rip off lectures recorded in university lecture halls.  I am now listening to "Introduction to Ancient Greek History" which was recorded at Yale and I will tell you that it is a good thing I didn't try to go to Yale.  If by some miracle they let me in, my ass would be filling a seat which should have been filled by a much wiser ass than my own and it would be unjust that I got the seat instead of them.  However, I have the same right to that information as a Yalie (whether I have the capacity to take it in and understand it is my problem). 

I am grateful to the company which recorded it for setting up a mic on those days and if they had a donations option I would make use of it.  As it is, I plan to buy a series or two from them, but I will do this out of gratitude rather than obligation.  I reject the idea that knowledge in any form is something which has to be paid for, by attending Yale or by purchasing the lecture, so that your right to knowledge increases with the size of your bank balance.  I therefore make no distinction between a course made freely available by a university (although it's awfully cool of them to do so) and one put out by a company as a copyrighted item, and I download them both without guilt.

Not to shoot out too far on a tangent, but I think this is really the point of the internet.  Throughout history, only a select few had access to information.  The decentralization of knowledge which the internet affords us means that information is (or should be) freely available to anyone who wants it (I mean information for the purpose of education, not all information without exception, including trade secrets, classified government stuff, etc).  This is the first time in history that this has been the case.  I think that is truly awesome and I would permit no roadblocks if I had my way.  I would like to see much more stuff find its way out there, since there is nowhere near enough information for someone to achieve the equivalent of a uni degree, but what is out there is usually very good and I plan to make full use of it. Which is the greater injustice - that Yale University or a company which sets up a microphone to record what is said there make a lower profit, or that everyone who wants access to first class information has to settle for second rate stuff or go entirely without because they can't afford to pay for it?  The right to education supersedes intellectual property rights imo.

Nevertheless, I plan to buy some lectures too and when I do I will be seeding them, so keep an eye out.  ;)

SuperNatural

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2009, 10:58:03 AM »
Excellent post, tapeworm.  I especially agree with the dissemination of intellectual property and culturally significant material. 

Tapeworm

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2009, 11:06:02 AM »
Excellent post, tapeworm.  I especially agree with the dissemination of intellectual property and culturally significant material. 

And I thank you for your patience in reading all that nonsense!  8)

SuperNatural

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2009, 11:16:01 AM »
The impact of copyright laws can be very detrimental towards technological and intellectual progress.  Granted, inventors and creators need to be rightfully compensated and have their material protected, but there is a fine line on how far copyrights should extend.  For example, copyrighting valuable material will hinder new adaptations of that work.  What if someone were to copyright the color blue?  Or a catch phrase/word?  Recently, Microsoft copyrighted a lengthy numerical system protecting their Windows Vista or something.  Anyone caught with this number could face legal prosecution.  Imagine that, owning the rights to a number?

Tapeworm

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2009, 06:06:43 PM »
The impact of copyright laws can be very detrimental towards technological and intellectual progress.  Granted, inventors and creators need to be rightfully compensated and have their material protected, but there is a fine line on how far copyrights should extend.  For example, copyrighting valuable material will hinder new adaptations of that work.  What if someone were to copyright the color blue?  Or a catch phrase/word?  Recently, Microsoft copyrighted a lengthy numerical system protecting their Windows Vista or something.  Anyone caught with this number could face legal prosecution.  Imagine that, owning the rights to a number?

I don't know much about patent law (btw - I am generally opposed to a legal system which has become so complex that it is indecipherable to the people for whom it exists) and any patent lawyer would probably shoot my position so full of holes that it couldn't stand.  Certainly there are things to which the inventor has an inviolable right, and that right could extend to an application of an existing thing, such as the process of vulcanization, for example.  However, the knowledge of how to vulcanize rubber in a particular way is a secret I think.  Seems to me that the process should benefit from legal protection and someone should be in trouble if they copy it, but knowledge of the process should be free.  Then we have the best of both worlds - freedom of knowledge and patent protection.

You seem to be objecting to the patenting of naturally existing things.  I would have thought no one would get away with this, but if Microsoft has patented a number then I guess that's that.  If it's an algorithm, then maybe I'd allow it since that's a process, but just a number?  Wouldn't pass in my democratic assembly!

Are you objecting more or less to the modern day tyranny of corporations?

SuperNatural

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2009, 05:28:41 PM »
I don't know much about patent law (btw - I am generally opposed to a legal system which has become so complex that it is indecipherable to the people for whom it exists) and any patent lawyer would probably shoot my position so full of holes that it couldn't stand.  Certainly there are things to which the inventor has an inviolable right, and that right could extend to an application of an existing thing, such as the process of vulcanization, for example.  However, the knowledge of how to vulcanize rubber in a particular way is a secret I think.  Seems to me that the process should benefit from legal protection and someone should be in trouble if they copy it, but knowledge of the process should be free.  Then we have the best of both worlds - freedom of knowledge and patent protection.

You seem to be objecting to the patenting of naturally existing things.  I would have thought no one would get away with this, but if Microsoft has patented a number then I guess that's that.  If it's an algorithm, then maybe I'd allow it since that's a process, but just a number?  Wouldn't pass in my democratic assembly!

Are you objecting more or less to the modern day tyranny of corporations?

Yeah, freedom of disseminating knowledge is all I'd really advocate.  And I'm the same, I know little about the legal system and its intricacies.  Heck, I probably know even less about technology in order to keep up with demand for patent protections. 

I wouldn't go so far as to say corporations are tyrannical.  Granted some are, possibly the ones the government says are "too big to fail."  But overall, I think that corporations are overwhelmingly dependent on the consumers.  Simple boycotting and the fears of a tarnished image have made many large companies alter policy, advertising or products.  Take Detroit auto, for example.  They couldn't mirror the needs of evolving energy policy and now they are playing catchup.  The music industry is currently finding out how to balance the model.  They still might have a fighting chance with concerts, memorabilia and ringtones/downloads, but cd sales probably won't do the trick. 

Just a side note:  The vital actor in this symbiotic relationship of company/consumer is informative media and the internet.  Investigative journalism can hold the candle of transparency to corporations that otherwise might have gotten away with fraud in early industrial America.  Although this isn't always the case, i.e. Bernie Madoff racking up $65 billion before exposure. 

Tapeworm

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2009, 05:33:20 AM »
Hmmm, ok maybe 'control' or 'influence' would have been a better word than 'tyranny.'  I swear I'm not wearing a tin foil hat or anything.  What I'm driving at is that large companies exert an inappropriate amount of influence on policy making imo.  Also, I'm not a believer in the doctrine of a government kissing company ass in the belief that it will serve the citizenry later down the line.  Policy should serve its citizens first, and directly, and corporate interests second imo.

I'm still a pretty gung ho capitalist so I believe the company that produced the educational material which I have 'liberated' deserves a fair chance to make a profit.  However, I also believe in free and equal access to educational material and important information.  Under the current system, these are irreconcilable viewpoints, but since I don't see anything wrong with either of them, I have to conclude that it is the current system which needs revision. 

I don't know the answer, but if I were king for a day I would identify certain classes of material which should be available for free download, subsidize the companies which produce the stuff (since it is for the direct benefit of my citizens, so it's my job to see to it), and let these companies pay no tax on whatever money they received by way of donation from grateful consumers (which would be an incentive to produce a quality product).  A carefully gauged subsidy program would govern the players on the field, both in terms of number and the quality of their performance.

Just by way of honesty... I admit I have grabbed a few things that I can't justify.  It's not a regular thing tho and I still rent from the vid store.

Edit: Better yet, mandate that every university be required to post up it's lectures and course materials online!  Gov't assistance available for those that gripe about the minimal cost.

24KT

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2009, 07:06:38 PM »
justify how some actors can demand 20 million dollars for a movie...

An actor's brand or product is very much a marketable commodity.

If "Actor X's" name in a film can guarantee an opening weekend box office of $X, then actor X should be able to demand whatever they want to appear in a film, ...whether it be 20 million, 30 million or even 50 million. An independant business owner should be able to determine the fees they charge for the services they render. They put the butts in the seat instantly and come with a built in audience. That's a tremendous value for producers, and theatre owners, otherwise they'd have to wait for word-of-mouth which takes time to build. Theatre owners don't have the time to build an audience. They need full theatres from day one.
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HTexan

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2009, 08:15:51 PM »
An actor's brand or product is very much a marketable commodity.

If "Actor X's" name in a film can guarantee an opening weekend box office of $X, then actor X should be able to demand whatever they want to appear in a film, ...whether it be 20 million, 30 million or even 50 million. An independant business owner should be able to determine the fees they charge for the services they render. They put the butts in the seat instantly and come with a built in audience. That's a tremendous value for producers, and theatre owners, otherwise they'd have to wait for word-of-mouth which takes time to build. Theatre owners don't have the time to build an audience. They need full theatres from day one.
some even get a gross % of the films Profits.
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Hugo Chavez

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2009, 11:35:13 PM »
not all torrents are illegal material. ::)
bingo.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2009, 11:36:50 PM »
Ok, I reckon I can justifiably download something if:

1. I have paid for it before. 
Bought it, rented it, paid to watch it in a theatre.  If I gave my friend Joe $2 to loan me a copy of his DVD rip then that doesn't count, but any bona fide agent which I have good reason to believe has an arrangement with the studio to compensate them for my viewing counts as a-ok.  Ok in theory, I shouldn't watch it with someone who has never paid to see it or loan it to them.


2. Material made available to the public domain. 
If it's in the library then I can download it.  The only thing that changes is that I save the drive to the library & that's good for the environment ;).  If Braveheart is going to be on TV but there is a lightening strike and the power goes out, I feel ok about downloading it and watching it the next night.  You could argue that I should have to stop every 20 minutes and go watch some commercials, but I see and hear enough commercials already each day that supplementing them is absurd.


3. Culturally significant material. 
If I want to listen to some Mozart concertos, I could go to the library and get them.  But say I lived in Concord, Massachusetts and wanted to read Twain's Huckleberry Finn and find that it is banned (although it's probably not banned there anymore).  I don't think my government has the right to determine what I should be allowed to read, nor are they the final word on what is culturally significant.  I will make that determination for myself.

This does not open the door for willy-nilly downloading imo.  The latest Beyonce recording or whatever is indefensible as being culturally significant since it simply hasn't been around for long enough to make an impact. 

Consider also that a kid in a poorly funded municipality with a shitty library has just as much of a right to familiarize himself with, for example, the evolution of classical music as does a kid living near a kick ass library with an extensive collection.  Sony would disagree.  Similarly, a kid from a rich family who buys him culturally significant material which is not found in the library does not have a greater right to education (although he usually gets one) than a kid from a poor family who cannot afford to buy the same things.  The rich kid and the poor kid have the same rights.

This is sort of an aside but... there are some great fuckin' movies out there that are simply not available anymore in some places.  For example, My Dinner With Andre.  This movie deserves to be kept alive even if video stores disagree and the studio which put it out doesn't find it profitable to print any more copies.  Some things should be downloaded and shared to ensure their availabilty to others.  An argument against downloading is frequently made that it violates 'the rights of the artists' but I would bet that a true artist would applaud the continued existence of his work when businessmen who hold the legal rights to its distribution deem it to be no longer profitable.

What is culturally significant is open to debate but since this thread (and the wide world of downloads) is about personal justification, it is up to each person to honestly make that determination.



4. Educational material in general.
Knowledge should be available to anyone who wants it.  Will Hunting was wrong - your library will not provide a university level education.  At least my local library wouldn't, it is a pain in the ass compared to google, and audio and video stuff available online give a busy person a better opportunity to learn than do more time consuming books.

I regularly rip off lectures recorded in university lecture halls.  I am now listening to "Introduction to Ancient Greek History" which was recorded at Yale and I will tell you that it is a good thing I didn't try to go to Yale.  If by some miracle they let me in, my ass would be filling a seat which should have been filled by a much wiser ass than my own and it would be unjust that I got the seat instead of them.  However, I have the same right to that information as a Yalie (whether I have the capacity to take it in and understand it is my problem). 

I am grateful to the company which recorded it for setting up a mic on those days and if they had a donations option I would make use of it.  As it is, I plan to buy a series or two from them, but I will do this out of gratitude rather than obligation.  I reject the idea that knowledge in any form is something which has to be paid for, by attending Yale or by purchasing the lecture, so that your right to knowledge increases with the size of your bank balance.  I therefore make no distinction between a course made freely available by a university (although it's awfully cool of them to do so) and one put out by a company as a copyrighted item, and I download them both without guilt.

Not to shoot out too far on a tangent, but I think this is really the point of the internet.  Throughout history, only a select few had access to information.  The decentralization of knowledge which the internet affords us means that information is (or should be) freely available to anyone who wants it (I mean information for the purpose of education, not all information without exception, including trade secrets, classified government stuff, etc).  This is the first time in history that this has been the case.  I think that is truly awesome and I would permit no roadblocks if I had my way.  I would like to see much more stuff find its way out there, since there is nowhere near enough information for someone to achieve the equivalent of a uni degree, but what is out there is usually very good and I plan to make full use of it. Which is the greater injustice - that Yale University or a company which sets up a microphone to record what is said there make a lower profit, or that everyone who wants access to first class information has to settle for second rate stuff or go entirely without because they can't afford to pay for it?  The right to education supersedes intellectual property rights imo.

Nevertheless, I plan to buy some lectures too and when I do I will be seeding them, so keep an eye out.  ;)

Excellent fucking post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2009, 11:38:34 PM »
An actor's brand or product is very much a marketable commodity.

If "Actor X's" name in a film can guarantee an opening weekend box office of $X, then actor X should be able to demand whatever they want to appear in a film, ...whether it be 20 million, 30 million or even 50 million. An independant business owner should be able to determine the fees they charge for the services they render. They put the butts in the seat instantly and come with a built in audience. That's a tremendous value for producers, and theatre owners, otherwise they'd have to wait for word-of-mouth which takes time to build. Theatre owners don't have the time to build an audience. They need full theatres from day one.
that's all fine but what is this shit with the royalty treatment ::)  That shit makes me want to puke.

Tapeworm

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2009, 03:13:42 AM »
Excellent fucking post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks!  :)

SuperNatural

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2009, 12:38:16 PM »
Coincidentally I found this relevant blog on the recent abuses in copyrights.


http://zenhabits.net/2009/04/feel-the-fear-and-do-it-anyway-or-the-privatization-of-the-english-language/


I know it is a little off the topic of music downloads. 

24KT

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2009, 04:23:37 PM »
that's all fine but what is this shit with the royalty treatment ::)  That shit makes me want to puke.

Please clarify your use of the term 'royalty'. Not sure what you're refering to.

1. deference

2. residual license use fees
w

Migs

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2009, 07:38:48 PM »
An actor's brand or product is very much a marketable commodity.

If "Actor X's" name in a film can guarantee an opening weekend box office of $X, then actor X should be able to demand whatever they want to appear in a film, ...whether it be 20 million, 30 million or even 50 million. An independant business owner should be able to determine the fees they charge for the services they render. They put the butts in the seat instantly and come with a built in audience. That's a tremendous value for producers, and theatre owners, otherwise they'd have to wait for word-of-mouth which takes time to build. Theatre owners don't have the time to build an audience. They need full theatres from day one.


blah, there should be a cap on salary.  Let the performance of the actor be the attraction.


Oh sorry been listening to obama rhetoric, lol. 

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2009, 09:46:35 PM »
Please clarify your use of the term 'royalty'. Not sure what you're refering to.

1. deference

2. residual license use fees
they act like royalty

24KT

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Re: Justify your torrent downloads!
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2009, 02:46:07 AM »
they act like royalty

In Hollywood, ...if your name attached to a project can guarantee a greenlight, financing, top notch personnel, and an opening weekend box office, ...YOU ARE ROYALTY!  :D
w