Author Topic: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding  (Read 12938 times)

Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2009, 11:53:26 AM »
Do you realize how utterly RIDICULOUS you sound, trying to use these verses as an excuse to justify letting terrorists kill our people?

These verses are not used or preached to people in a WAR-TIME setting. As far as feeding our enemies go, didn't a news report state that these guys gained an average of about 18 pounds, while locked up in Gitmo? So, it appears that Khalid Sheikh Muhammad didn't miss too many meals.

The term, "Love one another", in no way or form, means stand idly by and let your people (whom you swore BEFORE THIS VERY SAME GOD TO PROTECT FROM ALL ENEMIES) get blown to bits.

oh so the bible only applies in the context of war or peace

I guess there was no war or conflict at the time the bible was being written. 

I guess I also missed the asterik where is says "void in time of war"

you're hilarious

Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2009, 11:57:00 AM »
I'm sorry!! Since when does NANCY PELOSI work for the Bush adminstration's legal team?

I don't even know what this means.

Waterboarding has been a well known method of torture, which btw can be continued until the point of death and has been around for hundreds of years.


MCWAY

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2009, 12:17:01 PM »
oh so the bible only applies in the context of war or peace

I guess there was no war or conflict at the time the bible was being written. 

It depends on which books. Regardless, NONE OF THEM claim that gov't leaders are supposed to stand by and let their people be destroyed by playing patty-cake with their enemies (in EITHER Testament).


I guess I also missed the asterik where is says "void in time of war"

you're hilarious

I missed the verses that states, "Let your people be killed and blown to bit, lest ye make AL Qaeda, the UN, left-winged journalists, politicians, and cracked-minded GetBig posters unhappy".

Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2009, 12:29:09 PM »
McWay - I'm not saying we should let terrorist do anything.

this is not complicated.

Let's say we have someone in custody we suspect has knowledge of a future terrorist action.

Do we choose a method such as waterboarding which is illegal, which dehumanizes both parties, is known to produce an abundance of false information, can be used as a recruiting tool, etc...  or do we choose other methods which don't have any of these problems and produce better results?

Also, many christians would argue that those bible quotes apply at all times.  I mean for christ sakes it's kind of hard to see how these quotes would not apply during a time of war and you know full well that there were constant and ongoing wars at the time the bible was written and pretty much continously from the dawn of time.   

If anything, real christians like you should be praying for the terrorists and certainly have no religious ground to support torturing them.  Maybe you're not really a true christian

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).


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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2009, 12:48:27 PM »
well first off - torture (including waterboarding) is not an effective way to get actionable intelligence so it's not a "safety" issue.

I thought the bible was the infallable Word of God

Shit - your Saviour was tortured to death for your sins.

Did you ever read any of these versus in your bible study classes:

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34).

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse (Romans 12:14).

We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it (1 Corinthians 4:12).

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:17-21).

Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing (1 Peter 3:9).

Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble (1 John 2:9-10).


Straw Man you are a fool.  You're an atheist who quotes the Bible, which is all about a relationship with a being you don't believe in.  Do you have mock prayers too?   ::)

MCWAY

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2009, 01:03:25 PM »
McWay - I'm not saying we should let terrorist do anything.

this is not complicated.

Let's say we have someone in custody we suspect has knowledge of a future terrorist action.

Do we choose a method such as waterboarding which is illegal, which dehumanizes both parties, is known to produce an abundance of false information, can be used as a recruiting tool, etc...  or do we choose other methods which don't have any of these problems and produce better results?

First, your statement is loaded with questionable assumptions and flat-out falsehoods. First, waterboarding was NOT illegal. Secondly, whether the information gathered is "false" is the subject of debate.

Third, at the end of the day, we got KSM and others to talk, resulting in the saving of American lives.


Also, many christians would argue that those bible quotes apply at all times.  I mean for christ sakes it's kind of hard to see how these quotes would not apply during a time of war and you know full well that there were constant and ongoing wars at the time the bible was written and pretty much continously from the dawn of time. 

And exactly with whom was Israel at war, when the New Testament was written? That would be NOBODY. They were already under Roman subjugation.



If anything, real christians like you should be praying for the terrorists and certainly have no religious ground to support torturing them.  Maybe you're not really a true christian

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).

One, who says that Christians aren't praying for them (another foolish assumption, on your part).

The irony of all is that, for all of your silly talk, you are doing the very thing you accuse Christians of doing: picking and choosing verses.

The Bible also says, "If a man sheds another man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed". But, anyone with a grain of common sense (which disqualifies you, at the moment) can see, when such applies and when it does not.

Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2009, 01:06:36 PM »
Straw Man you are a fool.  You're an atheist who quotes the Bible, which is all about a relationship with a being you don't believe in.  Do you have mock prayers too?   ::)

I mostly mock hypocrites.


MCWAY

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2009, 01:11:31 PM »
I mostly mock hypocrites.



Quit picking on yourself. It ain't healthy!

Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2009, 01:15:05 PM »
Let's review.

The bible does not apply in a time of war

waterboarding was legal until Obama made it illegal

waterboarding is an effective way of getting good intelligence and has no negative consequences

Have I missed anything?

MCWAY

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2009, 02:18:51 PM »
Let's review.

The bible does not apply in a time of war

waterboarding was legal until Obama made it illegal

waterboarding is an effective way of getting good intelligence and has no negative consequences

Have I missed anything?

Other than your natural mind, any semblance of common sense, or a clue?

Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2009, 02:20:11 PM »
Other than your natural mind, any semblance of common sense, or a clue?

so you agree with everything else then?


loco

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2009, 01:19:26 PM »
Let's say we have someone in custody we suspect has knowledge of a future terrorist action.

Do we choose a method such as waterboarding which is illegal, which dehumanizes both parties, is known to produce an abundance of false information, can be used as a recruiting tool, etc...  or do we choose other methods which don't have any of these problems and produce better results?

Straw Man,
Please list these other methods, and evidence that these other methods do not have any of "these problems" and evidence that they produce "better results."

loco

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2009, 01:21:56 PM »
well first off - torture (including waterboarding) is not an effective way to get actionable intelligence so it's not a "safety" issue.

I thought the bible was the infallable Word of God

Shit - your Saviour was tortured to death for your sins.

Did you ever read any of these versus in your bible study classes:

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34).

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse (Romans 12:14).

We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it (1 Corinthians 4:12).

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:17-21).

Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing (1 Peter 3:9).

Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble (1 John 2:9-10).


Straw Man,
So do you think Christians should be banned from the military, that they should not be allowed to fight in any of your wars?  Will you fight in their place?

Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2009, 04:54:24 PM »
Straw Man,
Please list these other methods, and evidence that these other methods do not have any of "these problems" and evidence that they produce "better results."

there are examples and I'll find them later if you're truly interested. 

the point is really moot because torture is illegal.....remember?

Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2009, 04:55:59 PM »
Straw Man,
So do you think Christians should be banned from the military, that they should not be allowed to fight in any of your wars?  Will you fight in their place?

Christians are free to do whatever they want. 

I understand that it's difficult to follow the tenets of your religion when it goes against your base human instincts.

do you agree that all those quotes listed are "void" in times of war? (as McWay has suggested)

loco

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2009, 07:03:00 PM »
there are examples and I'll find them later if you're truly interested. 

the point is really moot because torture is illegal.....remember?

If I were not interested, then I would not have asked you to list these other methods and to show evidence that these other methods do not have any of "these problems" and evidence that they produce "better results."

loco

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2009, 07:09:54 PM »
Christians are free to do whatever they want. 

I understand that it's difficult to follow the tenets of your religion when it goes against your base human instincts.

do you agree that all those quotes listed are "void" in times of war? (as McWay has suggested)

You did not answer my question.  Based on the Bible verses you posted, along with your own interpretation of those Bible verses, to make your point that Christians should oppose Waterboarding, then you must want Christians to be banned from military service too.  You must want Christians to be excluded from combat.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Migs

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2009, 07:22:11 PM »
mmmm cake

sorry Stella had to do it

Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2009, 09:46:51 PM »
You did not answer my question.  Based on the Bible verses you posted, along with your own interpretation of those Bible verses, to make your point that Christians should oppose Waterboarding, then you must want Christians to be banned from military service too.  You must want Christians to be excluded from combat.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.

where did I say that Christians should be banned from military service?


loco

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2009, 05:13:07 AM »
where did I say that Christians should be banned from military service?

You did not say that.  That is my conclusion based on you quoting the Bible and stating your interpretation.

I guess I misunderstand you.  What's your purpose in quoting the Bible and stating your interpretation?

Correct me if I'm wrong.  Based on your interpretation of those Bible verses, Christians should oppose waterboarding, capital punishment and war.  Which means that if the US is attacked by another country, and if there is a draft, you would be okay if Christians are excluded from the draft based on their "religious opposition to war".  You would be okay with Christians staying behind, praying for your enemies and sending aid to your enemies, while you go fight those enemies.  You would be okay with Christian engineers, scientists, etc. doing absolutely no work in any research or technology related to weapons of any kind.  Am I correct?

loco

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2009, 05:13:42 AM »
Straw Man,
Please list these other methods, and evidence that these other methods do not have any of "these problems" and evidence that they produce "better results."

Still waiting.

Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2009, 06:49:02 AM »
You did not say that.  That is my conclusion based on you quoting the Bible and stating your interpretation.

I guess I misunderstand you.  What's your purpose in quoting the Bible and stating your interpretation?

Correct me if I'm wrong.  Based on your interpretation of those Bible verses, Christians should oppose waterboarding, capital punishment and war.  Which means that if the US is attacked by another country, and if there is a draft, you would be okay if Christians are excluded from the draft based on their "religious opposition to war".  You would be okay with Christians staying behind, praying for your enemies and sending aid to your enemies, while you go fight those enemies.  You would be okay with Christian engineers, scientists, etc. doing absolutely no work in any research or technology related to weapons of any kind.  Am I correct?

My purpose was to show that the book which many here think is the infallable word of God has abundant guidance on how to treat those who want to harm you.   No one is saying you have to allow yourself to be killed (that would make you actually like your "saviour") but you don't have to torture people.   Numerous reports have demonstrated to when you torture someone they tell you ANYTHING you want to hear just to get the pain to stop.  For examples of more effective alternatives you can start here: http://www.amazon.com/How-Break-Terrorist-Interrogators-Brutality/dp/1416573151

The part about all the christians here who support torture that just cracks me up is that the story you run your life by (and try impose on others) is about how "god" chose to become a mortal man and came to earth to teach you how to run your life.  This man willingly allowed himself to be tortured to death for your sins (whatever that actually means) and now a bunch of christians want to torture people just because they are a little scared.   As soon as life become a little tough you throw out all the stuff that supposedly is there to help you get through the tough times.   Fucking Hilarious

big L dawg

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2009, 06:51:45 AM »
My purpose was to show that the book which many here think is the infallable word of God has abundant guidance on how to treat those who want to harm you.   No one is saying you have to allow yourself to be killed (that would make you actually like your "saviour") but you don't have to torture people.   Numerous reports have demonstrated to when you torture someone they tell you ANYTHING you want to hear just to get the pain to stop.  For examples of more effective alternatives you can start here: http://www.amazon.com/How-Break-Terrorist-Interrogators-Brutality/dp/1416573151

The part about all the christians here who support torture that just cracks me up is that the story you run your life by (and try impose on others) is about how "god" chose to become a mortal man and came to earth to teach you how to run your life.  This man willingly allowed himself to be tortured to death for your sins (whatever that actually means) and now a bunch of christians want to torture people just because they are a little scared.   As soon as life become a little tough you throw out all the stuff that supposedly is there to help you get through the tough times.   Fucking Hilarious

good post.
DAWG

loco

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2009, 07:46:50 AM »
My purpose was to show that the book which many here think is the infallable word of God has abundant guidance on how to treat those who want to harm you.   No one is saying you have to allow yourself to be killed (that would make you actually like your "saviour") but you don't have to torture people.   Numerous reports have demonstrated to when you torture someone they tell you ANYTHING you want to hear just to get the pain to stop.  For examples of more effective alternatives you can start here: http://www.amazon.com/How-Break-Terrorist-Interrogators-Brutality/dp/1416573151

The part about all the christians here who support torture that just cracks me up is that the story you run your life by (and try impose on others) is about how "god" chose to become a mortal man and came to earth to teach you how to run your life.  This man willingly allowed himself to be tortured to death for your sins (whatever that actually means) and now a bunch of christians want to torture people just because they are a little scared.   As soon as life become a little tough you throw out all the stuff that supposedly is there to help you get through the tough times.   Fucking Hilarious

Still avoiding my questions I see.

What is it that you want Straw Man?  Are you okay with Christians being excluded from a draft and from working on military research and technology or not?

Or do you want Christians to love your enemies only when it comes to waterboarding and capital punishment, but to hate your enemies and to kill them when it comes to defending you and your country?  How convenient!

You accuse Christians of being inconsistent, but you are the one being inconsistent here, and border line hypocritical.

You accuse Christians of imposing their morals and values on you, yet you are the one coming here and quoting the Bible to Christians and imposing your interpretation on them.  You'd make a great televangelist.  You are the one imposing your morals and values about waterboarding and capital punishment on others.

You complain because Christians in politics follow their faith and the Bible, but when it comes to waterboarding and capital punishment you all of a sudden want Christians to follow the Bible, your interpretation of it anyway.  Make up your mind.

loco

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2009, 07:47:49 AM »
Straw Man,
Please list these other methods, and evidence that these other methods do not have any of "these problems" and evidence that they produce "better results."

Still waiting.