Author Topic: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding  (Read 13094 times)

Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #75 on: April 30, 2009, 04:34:33 PM »
Fitt I think you can say the same thing about war in general.  It's evil.  Definitely a consequence of sin, but it's a necessary evil.  There was war in heaven.  There has been war since the beginning of time.  There will be war till the end of time. 

I don't think Christians have any sort of spiritual obligation to not fight enemies.  If that were the case there would be no Christian soldiers, police officers, etc. 

I really don't see waterboarding as any sort of spiritual issue.  I also don't see a problem with another Christian (like you) who does have a problem with it.  It's a matter of conscience. 

Is torturing a prisoner the same as fighting an enemy in a battle?  Is it the same as being a police officer (to protect and serve?)

If treatment of a captive were the same thing as engaging in a war or a military operation then we would be completely justified in taking all our prisoners, enemy combatants, etc.. and putting them in a prison and then just bombing the shit out of the prison.

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #76 on: April 30, 2009, 04:47:19 PM »
Is torturing a prisoner the same as fighting an enemy in a battle?  Is it the same as being a police officer (to protect and serve?)

If treatment of a captive were the same thing as engaging in a war or a military operation then we would be completely justified in taking all our prisoners, enemy combatants, etc.. and putting them in a prison and then just bombing the shit out of the prison.

Depends on the prisoner and what kind of information he may have, what kind of threat he poses, and whether lesser means have been effective.  No, torturing a prisoner isn't the same as being a police officer.  Who said that?? 

Treatment of a prisoner is indistinguishable from engaging in war.  It's a part of war. 

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #77 on: April 30, 2009, 05:14:24 PM »
Depends on the prisoner and what kind of information he may have, what kind of threat he poses, and whether lesser means have been effective.  No, torturing a prisoner isn't the same as being a police officer.  Who said that?? 

Treatment of a prisoner is indistinguishable from engaging in war.  It's a part of war. 

you didn't say it but I thought maybe you were drawing some comparison btw fighting in a war/being a police officer and torturing a captive

treatment of a prisoner is absolutely distinguishable from engaging in a war.   

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #78 on: April 30, 2009, 05:25:25 PM »
you didn't say it but I thought maybe you were drawing some comparison btw fighting in a war/being a police officer and torturing a captive

treatment of a prisoner is absolutely distinguishable from engaging in a war.   

No it isn't.  You can't have prisoners of war or detainees without a war/conflict. 

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #79 on: April 30, 2009, 05:58:00 PM »
No it isn't.  You can't have prisoners of war or detainees without a war/conflict. 

Who said you couldn't have prisoners?  You specifically said "treatment" of a prisoner was indinguishable from engaging in war and this is completely false.  Maybe you meant something different but you treat a prisoner different from someone you're actively fighting

If there weren't then you could just take out a gun and kill them..... In fact you have to feed them, clothe them and not mistreat them.   So yes, treatment of a prisoner is absolutely distinguishable from engaging in war. 
Treatment of a prisoner is indistinguishable from engaging in war.  It's a part of war. 

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #80 on: April 30, 2009, 06:31:26 PM »
Who said you couldn't have prisoners?  You specifically said "treatment" of a prisoner was indinguishable from engaging in war and this is completely false.  Maybe you meant something different but you treat a prisoner different from someone you're actively fighting

If there weren't then you could just take out a gun and kill them..... In fact you have to feed them, clothe them and not mistreat them.   So yes, treatment of a prisoner is absolutely distinguishable from engaging in war. 

I'm not talking about treating prisoners the same way you treat someone who is shooting at you.  There is obviously a difference.  I'm saying you can't have prisoners without a war/conflict.  From that standpoint, prisoners (treatment, whatever) is indistinguishable from war, because you can't have one without the other.  Of course there are rules of engagement, the Geneva Convention, and other applicable laws.

Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2009, 06:43:58 PM »
I'm not talking about treating prisoners the same way you treat someone who is shooting at you.  There is obviously a difference.  I'm saying you can't have prisoners without a war/conflict.  From that standpoint, prisoners (treatment, whatever) is indistinguishable from war, because you can't have one without the other.  Of course there are rules of engagement, the Geneva Convention, and other applicable laws.

well your initial statement was a unclear (at least to me).

an enemy you're trying to kill is not your prisoner until you capture him (yes obvious) and after you capture him you have an obligation to treat him humanely.   

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2009, 06:55:51 PM »
Me?  Why me?  Aren't you being a bit self righteous and judgemental?

What about you, Straw Man and other skeptics on this board?  You want Christians to love your enemies when it comes to waterboarding and capital punishment, but when it comes to defending you and your country, you want Christians to hate and to kill your enemies.  That's what I call having no morals and no values, but what suits you at the time.

By the way, I am a believer in and follower of Jesus Christ, and I do not condone torture in any way, shape or form.

I apologise to you loco - I should not have made a blanket generalization.

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #83 on: April 30, 2009, 07:02:07 PM »
I apologise to you loco - I should not have made a blanket generalization.

No problem, gcb!   ;D

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #84 on: April 30, 2009, 08:48:26 PM »
Fitt I think you can say the same thing about war in general.  It's evil.  Definitely a consequence of sin, but it's a necessary evil.  There was war in heaven.  There has been war since the beginning of time.  There will be war till the end of time. 

I don't think Christians have any sort of spiritual obligation to not fight enemies.  If that were the case there would be no Christian soldiers, police officers, etc. 

I really don't see waterboarding as any sort of spiritual issue.  I also don't see a problem with another Christian (like you) who does have a problem with it.  It's a matter of conscience. 

For the most part, I do agree that war is evil.  However, I respectfully disagree that evil is necessary.  Anything that is evil is of satan.  The war that you speak of in heaven was against God's enemy.  This is why I say "for the most."  Any war that is fought against God's enemy (satan) is not evil.  The problem is many Christians (and non-christians) have claimed to have fought for Christian reasons, but in truth, their reasons had nothing to do with God.  I do not know much about Islam, but I would suspect that those who strap bombs to themselves and kill others are not truly doing what their god requires.  I repeat, I do not know much about that particular religion.

As for Christians being soldiers and police officers, I have given much thought and prayer to this very issue.  I am a retired military person, so this is very personal for me.  When I spoke with a trusted minister concerning this, he asked me what obligation did I make.  The answer was to protect and defend the Constitution of America against all enemies.  He was trying to make the point that I did not agree to committ murder.  My response was that this was to defend America's enemies, not God's enemies.  I went on to ask what would have happened if America enemy became God.  He said that nothing came before God.  His point about not committing murder implied that killing in battle is not the same as shedding innocent blood.  While I do agree that there is a difference, I am not sure that makes it all right. 

If America (or any nation) was a nation of Christians, then God would fight her battles.  America is not, nor has it ever been, a nation that was founded on Christian principles.  From my observation, Former President Bush attempted to be the President first and then be a Christian.  Some will argue that it has to be this way because we have separation of state and church.  I say how can you expect to have God's protection when you do not put Him first.  This is where the real problem comes into play.  When these "waterboarding" questions get asked, many will try to balance between Christianity and the reality of our world.  As Christians, that would make us lukewarm.  We can never put the world's way before God's way.  If America is not really a nation of God, then she is left to defend herself.

I have written a lot, but not really answered the question.  That is because I still do not have all of the answers myself.  What I do know is that there is never a time for it to be okay to sin.  Bum makes the point that it may be a matter of conscience.  The Bible tells us that eating meat is sinful if you think it is sin, and not sinful if you do not believe it to be sin.  However, I just do not see acts of torture in the same category.  These answers can only come through continued prayer and fasting.


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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #85 on: April 30, 2009, 09:01:42 PM »
For the most part, I do agree that war is evil.  However, I respectfully disagree that evil is necessary.  Anything that is evil is of satan.  The war that you speak of in heaven was against God's enemy.  This is why I say "for the most."  Any war that is fought against God's enemy (satan) is not evil.  The problem is many Christians (and non-christians) have claimed to have fought for Christian reasons, but in truth, their reasons had nothing to do with God.  I do not know much about Islam, but I would suspect that those who strap bombs to themselves and kill others are not truly doing what their god requires.  I repeat, I do not know much about that particular religion.

As for Christians being soldiers and police officers, I have given much thought and prayer to this very issue.  I am a retired military person, so this is very personal for me.  When I spoke with a trusted minister concerning this, he asked me what obligation did I make.  The answer was to protect and defend the Constitution of America against all enemies.  He was trying to make the point that I did not agree to committ murder.  My response was that this was to defend America's enemies, not God's enemies.  I went on to ask what would have happened if America enemy became God.  He said that nothing came before God.  His point about not committing murder implied that killing in battle is not the same as shedding innocent blood.  While I do agree that there is a difference, I am not sure that makes it all right. 

If America (or any nation) was a nation of Christians, then God would fight her battles.  America is not, nor has it ever been, a nation that was founded on Christian principles.  From my observation, Former President Bush attempted to be the President first and then be a Christian.  Some will argue that it has to be this way because we have separation of state and church.  I say how can you expect to have God's protection when you do not put Him first.  This is where the real problem comes into play.  When these "waterboarding" questions get asked, many will try to balance between Christianity and the reality of our world.  As Christians, that would make us lukewarm.  We can never put the world's way before God's way.  If America is not really a nation of God, then she is left to defend herself.

I have written a lot, but not really answered the question.  That is because I still do not have all of the answers myself.  What I do know is that there is never a time for it to be okay to sin.  Bum makes the point that it may be a matter of conscience.  The Bible tells us that eating meat is sinful if you think it is sin, and not sinful if you do not believe it to be sin.  However, I just do not see acts of torture in the same category.  These answers can only come through continued prayer and fasting.

now this is some fascinating shit

seriously


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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #86 on: April 30, 2009, 10:23:36 PM »
For the most part, I do agree that war is evil.  However, I respectfully disagree that evil is necessary.  Anything that is evil is of satan.  The war that you speak of in heaven was against God's enemy.  This is why I say "for the most."  Any war that is fought against God's enemy (satan) is not evil.  The problem is many Christians (and non-christians) have claimed to have fought for Christian reasons, but in truth, their reasons had nothing to do with God.  I do not know much about Islam, but I would suspect that those who strap bombs to themselves and kill others are not truly doing what their god requires.  I repeat, I do not know much about that particular religion.

As for Christians being soldiers and police officers, I have given much thought and prayer to this very issue.  I am a retired military person, so this is very personal for me.  When I spoke with a trusted minister concerning this, he asked me what obligation did I make.  The answer was to protect and defend the Constitution of America against all enemies.  He was trying to make the point that I did not agree to committ murder.  My response was that this was to defend America's enemies, not God's enemies.  I went on to ask what would have happened if America enemy became God.  He said that nothing came before God.  His point about not committing murder implied that killing in battle is not the same as shedding innocent blood.  While I do agree that there is a difference, I am not sure that makes it all right. 

If America (or any nation) was a nation of Christians, then God would fight her battles.  America is not, nor has it ever been, a nation that was founded on Christian principles.  From my observation, Former President Bush attempted to be the President first and then be a Christian.  Some will argue that it has to be this way because we have separation of state and church.  I say how can you expect to have God's protection when you do not put Him first.  This is where the real problem comes into play.  When these "waterboarding" questions get asked, many will try to balance between Christianity and the reality of our world.  As Christians, that would make us lukewarm.  We can never put the world's way before God's way.  If America is not really a nation of God, then she is left to defend herself.

I have written a lot, but not really answered the question.  That is because I still do not have all of the answers myself.  What I do know is that there is never a time for it to be okay to sin.  Bum makes the point that it may be a matter of conscience.  The Bible tells us that eating meat is sinful if you think it is sin, and not sinful if you do not believe it to be sin.  However, I just do not see acts of torture in the same category.  These answers can only come through continued prayer and fasting.




Great Post!.






In the battle of Armageddon, whom do you think Jesus will be waring against? ALL the governments of the world. That means the current govs. have a whole lot to worry about. Also, if Jesus is going to do battle with these current govs., who should you as a christian be supporting? Food for thought.


Regarding how christians should view warefare now, below are some secular sources to help clear the matter. Scriputures to support as well.



Matt. 26:52

Could there have been any higher cause for which to fight than to safeguard the Son of God? Yet, Jesus here indicated that those disciples were not to resort to weapons of physical warfare.

Isa. 2:2-4

Individuals out of all nations must personally decide what course they will pursue. Those who have heeded God's judgment give evidence that he is their God.

2 Cor. 10:3, 4

Paul here states that he never resorted to fleshly weapons, such as trickery, high-sounding language, or carnal weapons, to protect the congregation against false teachings.

Luke 6:27, 28

Yes, christians are too love thier enemies for now.



"A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius (Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.), no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” (The Rise of Christianity [London, 1947], E. W. Barnes, p. 333).

“We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons, our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage, and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified.” (Justin Martyr in “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (2nd century C.E.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, Mich.; reprint of 1885 Edinburgh edition), edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. I, p. 254).

“They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.” (History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163).




GC/DEA_AGENT

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #87 on: May 01, 2009, 09:47:13 AM »
I believe Jesus wouldn't torture anyone because he wouldn't need to torture anyone....He would already know everything.




I looked around online to see what waterboarding entails. 

I guess I can't make a fully informed statement having not been waterboarded myself, but it looks like people are not actually physically injured during the process.

If some criminal had buried my mom alive in a hole in the ground and the only way to get him to tell me where she was would be to waterboard him, I think I would try to do it.

If making a terrorist believe they were drowning for a few minutes would be the only way to save hundreds or thousands of people from getting burned to death, it would be hard for me to say it shouldn't be done.



Have you ever almost drowned? Waterboarding involves having your lungs filled with water; I can assure it is a form of torture and so can he:



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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #88 on: May 01, 2009, 09:54:05 AM »
IF we had a draft it would not be my choice or decision to exclude anyone based on their regligious beliefs.  I guess they could be a conscioutious objector if that was THEIR choice. 

Whether we had a draft or someone was a volunteer I wouldn't require anyone to torture a prisoner

My comments were about the subject of this thread which is torture (yes I think waterboarding is torture)

I don't see how a christian can condone torture but I guess it's easy for some as long as you assume the bible is void in a time of war

Bible is full of a lot worse things than waterboarding; I recall a passage where a woman is raped, murdered and dissected into several parts.
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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #89 on: May 01, 2009, 12:55:26 PM »
Bible is full of a lot worse things than waterboarding; I recall a passage where a woman is raped, murdered and dissected into several parts.

You are probably referring to Judges 19-20. The Bible is merely reporting an incident, not condoning it. The dissecting into 12 parts has a deeper rooted meaning. The woman was already dead. Maybe someone that has more time can explain why this part of the story was done. Still, the God of the Bible did not condone this atrocity.

Just like court documents record rapes,murders, etc. today, yet the court/court officials/employees is/are not the culprit(s).




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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #90 on: May 01, 2009, 12:59:38 PM »
You are probably referring to Judges 19-20. The Bible is merely reporting an incident, not condoning it. The dissecting into 12 parts has a deeper rooted meaning. The woman was already dead. Maybe someone that has more time can explain why this part of the story was done. Still, the God of the Bible did not condone this atrocity.

Just like court documents record rapes,murders, etc. today, yet the court/court officials/employees is/are not the culprit(s).




CG/DEA_AGENT

UHM...Yahweh also orders genocide and murder...as long as it is done in his name but this has been discussed often here.
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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #91 on: May 01, 2009, 01:12:59 PM »
UHM...Yahweh also orders genocide and murder...as long as it is done in his name but this has been discussed often here.


Yeah I've seen it. And it has been explained in detail. Some, no matter what they are given as evidence to the contrary, will always say the opposite.

Most cases of murder and genocide that are reported to be done in God's name, were indeed NOT backed by Yahweh or Jesus. People misuse/commit acts of violence/etc. in His/their name continuously. That's not His/their fault.





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fitt@40

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #92 on: May 01, 2009, 01:21:15 PM »
UHM...Yahweh also orders genocide and murder...as long as it is done in his name but this has been discussed often here.

It is no mystery or secret that God has destroyed those who were disobedient.  There are times when He has mercy, and there are times when His wrath is shown.  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion (Romans 9:15).

I challenge you to quote one Scripture whereby God destroyed the innocent.  I know from previous posts of your's that you do not believe in God or Christ.  However, your posts here reminds me of those who will say, "I do not want to serve a God that kills people."  As GC (I believe it was you) pointed out, we were created to serve God.  Some where along the way even many Christians have forgotten this.

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #93 on: May 01, 2009, 03:10:34 PM »
It is no mystery or secret that God has destroyed those who were disobedient.  There are times when He has mercy, and there are times when His wrath is shown.  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion (Romans 9:15).

I challenge you to quote one Scripture whereby God destroyed the innocent.  I know from previous posts of your's that you do not believe in God or Christ.  However, your posts here reminds me of those who will say, "I do not want to serve a God that kills people."  As GC (I believe it was you) pointed out, we were created to serve God.  Some where along the way even many Christians have forgotten this.

you have said that anything of evil is satan...who created satan?
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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #94 on: May 01, 2009, 04:09:33 PM »
you have said that anything of evil is satan...who created satan?


It wasn't the God of the Bible if that's what you are implying. Same with the original couple. These entities CHOSE to sin. God created them perfect. Only after the devil CHOSE to sin was he labeled satan the devil. Those words mean slanderer and resister.

Same with mankind now. Is a mother or father to blame for their off springs choice to murder? God endowed ALL with free will. It's a choice as to how people/entities want to live.



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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #95 on: May 01, 2009, 04:45:45 PM »

It wasn't the God of the Bible if that's what you are implying. Same with the original couple. These entities CHOSE to sin. God created them perfect. Only after the devil CHOSE to sin was he labeled satan the devil. Those words mean slanderer and resister.

Same with mankind now. Is a mother or father to blame for their off springs choice to murder? God endowed ALL with free will. It's a choice as to how people/entities want to live.



GC/DEA_AGENT

And prescient and omniscient as he is he knew full well they would 'choose' to sin...logical impossibility and just plain stupid. ::)
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Straw Man

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #96 on: May 01, 2009, 07:05:10 PM »
....
If America (or any nation) was a nation of Christians, then God would fight her battles.  America is not, nor has it ever been, a nation that was founded on Christian principles.   If America is not really a nation of God, then she is left to defend herself.
...


Ok - I'm curious.  If somehow we (or another country) were actually a christian theocracy (or whatevery you mean by a nation of christians) then you're saying that God would "fight our battles"?  In what form do you think this help from God would be?  Would he ony fight to defend this hypothetical christian nation or would he help us conquer other countries.

BTW - I do agree with you that America was not founded on Christian principles.   I know some christians on this board would probably disagree with that but in that regard you and I are in total agreement

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #97 on: May 02, 2009, 01:32:06 AM »

It wasn't the God of the Bible if that's what you are implying. Same with the original couple. These entities CHOSE to sin. God created them perfect. Only after the devil CHOSE to sin was he labeled satan the devil. Those words mean slanderer and resister.

Same with mankind now. Is a mother or father to blame for their off springs choice to murder? God endowed ALL with free will. It's a choice as to how people/entities want to live.



GC/DEA_AGENT

These are true words. 

Anything that separates from God's Will is evil.  Most people are aware of the fact that lucifer (along with a third of the angels) were kicked out of Heaven because he rebelled against God.  Most people do not fully understand how that rebellion came to be.  Lucifer was the "Son of the morning."    How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (Isaiah 14:12)  Son of the morning means that lucifer would go before God; he would literally be in his presence.   Lucifer had two main functions in Heaven.  One was to reflect God's Image (after he was in His presence).  Lucifer had many reflective things and pipes on his body.  The reflective things would burn God's image onto them.  Lucifer would then go back into the presence of the other angels and show God's image.  The other angels would bow and pay respect to the image they were seeing.  Lucifer grew to see it as they were bowing to him.  He liked this sense of power and the rebellion against God came from this.  The other main function of lucifer was music (from the pipes in his body).  This is why music of the world is so dangerous, but that's for another thread.

Perhaps this is a bit too far into "meat" even for many Christians.  Surely it will get me labeled as a lunatic (again) by the non-believers.

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #98 on: May 02, 2009, 01:54:42 AM »
For the most part, I do agree that war is evil.  However, I respectfully disagree that evil is necessary.  Anything that is evil is of satan.  The war that you speak of in heaven was against God's enemy.  This is why I say "for the most."  Any war that is fought against God's enemy (satan) is not evil.  The problem is many Christians (and non-christians) have claimed to have fought for Christian reasons, but in truth, their reasons had nothing to do with God.  I do not know much about Islam, but I would suspect that those who strap bombs to themselves and kill others are not truly doing what their god requires.  I repeat, I do not know much about that particular religion.

As for Christians being soldiers and police officers, I have given much thought and prayer to this very issue.  I am a retired military person, so this is very personal for me.  When I spoke with a trusted minister concerning this, he asked me what obligation did I make.  The answer was to protect and defend the Constitution of America against all enemies.  He was trying to make the point that I did not agree to committ murder.  My response was that this was to defend America's enemies, not God's enemies.  I went on to ask what would have happened if America enemy became God.  He said that nothing came before God.  His point about not committing murder implied that killing in battle is not the same as shedding innocent blood.  While I do agree that there is a difference, I am not sure that makes it all right. 

If America (or any nation) was a nation of Christians, then God would fight her battles.  America is not, nor has it ever been, a nation that was founded on Christian principles.  From my observation, Former President Bush attempted to be the President first and then be a Christian.  Some will argue that it has to be this way because we have separation of state and church.  I say how can you expect to have God's protection when you do not put Him first.  This is where the real problem comes into play.  When these "waterboarding" questions get asked, many will try to balance between Christianity and the reality of our world.  As Christians, that would make us lukewarm.  We can never put the world's way before God's way.  If America is not really a nation of God, then she is left to defend herself.

I have written a lot, but not really answered the question.  That is because I still do not have all of the answers myself.  What I do know is that there is never a time for it to be okay to sin.  Bum makes the point that it may be a matter of conscience.  The Bible tells us that eating meat is sinful if you think it is sin, and not sinful if you do not believe it to be sin.  However, I just do not see acts of torture in the same category.  These answers can only come through continued prayer and fasting.



I have a different take Fitt.  There are many things that are the result of sin:  death, dying, pain, suffering, killing, killing in self defense, etc.  I put war in that category. 

We cannot simply call ourselves Christians, and citizens of a certain country, then sit back and do nothing to defend the country.  We can no more refuse to protect our citizens through armed conflict than we can disarm our law enforcement, stop maintaining the roads, eliminate firefighters, etc.  In my view, there is nothing inconsistent about being a Christian and being a member of society, including contributing to the well-being of society. 

It really isn't possible to hide in our houses and ask God to defend us.  IMO there is always an action requirement on our part.  Reminds me of my favorite Homer Simpson prayer:  "Lord, if you don't want me to do this, please say absolutely nothing."   :) 

Much of this is indeed a matter of conscience.  Some people think drinking alcohol is a sin.  Some don't think it's appropriate to eat whatever you want.  Some think you have to dress a certain, way, wear certain headgear, etc.  I know some who think Christians should not serve in the military.  I actually had a debate with a pastor who served as a chaplain in the military and believed any Christian who served should serve in a noncombat role.  I told him he was no different than a grunt who pulls the trigger, because a Chaplain helps a soldier satisfy spiritual needs, which then makes the soldier a more effective killing machine.  He disagreed.   :)

But at the end of the day, this whole waterboarding thing is pretty silly, especially as some sort of religious litmus test. 

fitt@40

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Re: Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding
« Reply #99 on: May 02, 2009, 02:00:45 AM »
Ok - I'm curious.  If somehow we (or another country) were actually a christian theocracy (or whatevery you mean by a nation of christians) then you're saying that God would "fight our battles"?  In what form do you think this help from God would be?  Would he ony fight to defend this hypothetical christian nation or would he help us conquer other countries.

BTW - I do agree with you that America was not founded on Christian principles.   I know some christians on this board would probably disagree with that but in that regard you and I are in total agreement

To answer your questions I must define what a Christian nation would be.  It would be a nation that has put the Will of God first.  But what does that really mean?  What would America have to do to become a Christian nation?  Our leaders (political and religious) would have to live and believe in the Word of God.  Today we have many who leaders (political and religious) who profess before man that they are Christians, but live sinful lives when they think eyes are not on them.  The separation of church and state would be closed.  Please do not misunderstand what I am saying; we would not be bound by any laws of God.  To suggest so would nullify the Grace we have through the sacrifice Christ made for us.  What would happen is man's laws would be made based on the Word of God.  For example, as it stands now, there is nothing illegal about two single adults engaging in consentual  sex.  God says sex should only be between husband and wife.  If we were to become a Christian nation, our law would reflect the same.

How would God defend us?  There is no doubt we would be protected from other nations.  God says if just two or more people come together in His name, He would be there.  For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.  (Matthew 18:20)  Can you imagine a whole nation coming together in his name?  God would not have us to conquer other nations.  That is not what He has instructed us to do.  He would have us share His Word with the world, but never force it on anyone.  

The Bible teaches us that just the opposite is going to happen.  Our nation and the rest of the world are going to drift farther and farther away from God.