Author Topic: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.  (Read 6568 times)

Nordic Superman

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #75 on: April 28, 2009, 01:34:32 AM »
Says who? You? Because if it's just you who's saying so I'd like to turn the page with a simple STFU.

Does islamic law make a woman's testament in court 1/4 that of a male? Is a woman "a field to be ploughed"? Read the koran, the source of the ideology and self proclaimed infallible word of God that cannot be changed.

So remove the ad hominem, then prove me wrong.

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What?! Looky hiah homeboy... The only reason Christianity has reformed itself is because it was forced upon them by democratic institutions and not by their own choice. Even nowadays many Christians, especially catholics (Opus Dei, Mormons, et cetera), will say things that will make you think "what the fuck?!" on more than one occasion. Abortion, religions in schools, homophobia, et cetera. Remember Bush and all the bible thumpers? All about the Christian God baby! Boom! Almost 100,000 souls killed.


Well, the FACT still remains that mainstream Christianity HAS reformed. Mainstream islam cannot be reformed due to its ideological premise - which you cannot seem to grasp. The rest of your post could be applied to any thought process.

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No, I see Islam as another religion (ideology as you like to call it) that will quickly fade away as soon as the people in Muslim countries realise they are being taken for a ride. I do not see Muslims as helpless zombies collectively brainwashed and "wired" to kill other non-Muslims. I see them as humans first. Many of them are really fucked up in the head... but so do many Christians or Hindus. 

Muslims are humans, when and where did I say they were not? There are moderate muslims, there's no moderate islam - refute THAT point. Discussing other religions when islam is being directly criticised is a weak point - islam isn't any less or more guilty due to the action of adherents of religion X.

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You said it! Take it out of context when it best serves your purpose. It's funny because if we were to live in Roman times and you asked a Roman about the Gauls, the Germanic tribes or the Celt tribes of Great Britain you'd most likely be told that they were nothing but barbarians who brush their teeth with urine, who practise homosexuality and offer nothing to human advancement. Fast forward to today. That's right: That's why you need to be careful with your choice of words. Some nuance please. Or take, if you will, the Vikings and compare them to today's Scandinavians. Just to give you some examples.

I said in recent times, being the past 100 years; their impact is negligible. Muslim lands have disproportionately immense oil wealth but islamic ideology stops any stem of growth.

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And the reason I included the Roman vs Barbarians example is because I wanted to point out how an incredibly rich period in human advancement can easily be followed by the blackest of holes, as is the case with Roman Europe and what followed: Almost 1,100 years of nothing but record-breaking backwardness that sent Europe back to the stone age. Oh, and before I forget, the Catholic Church's maximum period of expansion took place... when? That's right, the Middle Ages. The Catholic Church was quick to pick up the ashes of the Roman empire and built one of their own, complete with death, dispair, where all irreligious knowledge was banned until the Italian Renaissance.

Take notes. Listen. Learn.

Next thing you know you'll be telling me you have nothing against Muslims...  ::) ::) ::)

1100 years of nothing? Can you point me to the evidence showing that? ???
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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #76 on: April 28, 2009, 01:57:35 AM »
Does islamic law make a woman's testament in court 1/4 that of a male? Is a woman "a field to be ploughed"? Read the koran, the source of the ideology and self proclaimed infallible word of God that cannot be changed.

So remove the ad hominem, then prove me wrong.
 

Well, the FACT still remains that mainstream Christianity HAS reformed. Mainstream islam cannot be reformed due to its ideological premise - which you cannot seem to grasp. The rest of your post could be applied to any thought process.

Muslims are humans, when and where did I say they were not? There are moderate muslims, there's no moderate islam - refute THAT point. Discussing other religions when islam is being directly criticised is a weak point - islam isn't any less or more guilty due to the action of adherents of religion X.

I said in recent times, being the past 100 years; their impact is negligible. Muslim lands have disproportionately immense oil wealth but islamic ideology stops any stem of growth.

1100 years of nothing? Can you point me to the evidence showing that? ???

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Nordic Superman

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2009, 02:11:56 AM »


Those look nice!

I once had a taco in Orange County and the shell was like plastic and the cheesy insides like wax :-X
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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #78 on: April 28, 2009, 02:25:03 AM »
Those look nice!

I once had a taco in Orange County and the shell was like plastic and the cheesy insides like wax :-X

Got to go to Mexico my friend!
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Slapper

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #79 on: April 29, 2009, 06:20:47 PM »
Does islamic law make a woman's testament in court 1/4 that of a male? Is a woman "a field to be ploughed"? Read the koran, the source of the ideology and self proclaimed infallible word of God that cannot be changed.

So remove the ad hominem, then prove me wrong.

Prove what wrong? Prove that misogyny is hardly a Muslim phenomenon? Prove that the Koran is hardly the only religious book that contains violence, including misogyny? I invite you to read Does the Bible Justify Violence? by John J. Collins. Good book.

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Well, the FACT still remains that mainstream Christianity HAS reformed. Mainstream Islam cannot be reformed due to its ideological premise - which you cannot seem to grasp. The rest of your post could be applied to any thought process.

Yes, Christianity did reform, but not by choice, but by force. Illegitimate power centers like the Catholic church or any other type of religious, political or financial entity do not go down without a fight and always try to influence policy. And, again, this is the case with many, many religions. I lived in Europe for many years and had the opportunity to travel around and in some small towns the church is still the "center of town" in every way.

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Muslims are humans, when and where did I say they were not? There are moderate Muslims, there's no moderate Islam - refute THAT point. Discussing other religions when Islam is being directly criticised is a weak point - Islam isn't any less or more guilty due to the action of adherents of religion X.

Ok... so you are agreeing with me then?  ??? ???

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I said in recent times, being the past 100 years; their impact is negligible. Muslim lands have disproportionately immense oil wealth but islamic ideology stops any stem of growth.

So do you think it's fair to judge and entire civilization that spans millennium by what they have collectively done in the past 100 years? Would it be Ok to judge human evolution, for example, by what humans have done in the past 500-1000 years? 

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1100 years of nothing? Can you point me to the evidence showing that? ???

What did happen in Europe during the Middles Ages dude? Was it a step or two backwards from a human advancement perspective?

You tell me.

headhuntersix

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #80 on: April 29, 2009, 06:28:38 PM »
Great Slapper..nobody should disagree...but its the 21st century. I missed where the Catholic church is handing out white tabbards with maltese crosses on them. They suck..u know they suck...end of story.
L

Nordic Superman

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2009, 01:43:39 AM »
Prove what wrong? Prove that misogyny is hardly a Muslim phenomenon? Prove that the Koran is hardly the only religious book that contains violence, including misogyny? I invite you to read Does the Bible Justify Violence? by John J. Collins. Good book.

Huh? Can you not follow a simple conversation? You were the one saying "who says islam ... you? STFU...". I prove my point with tangible evidence by using the koran and history. I'm starting to come to terms with your issue, I believe you to be a cultural relativist.

Also, please show me A SINGLE INSTANCE where I said the Bible DID NOT contain violence. I am simply of the opinion that ISLAM as is written in the KORAN is a more dangerous ideology; in terms of both violence, human rights and other issues.

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Yes, Christianity did reform, but not by choice, but by force. Illegitimate power centers like the Catholic church or any other type of religious, political or financial entity do not go down without a fight and always try to influence policy. And, again, this is the case with many, many religions. I lived in Europe for many years and had the opportunity to travel around and in some small towns the church is still the "center of town" in every way.

Yes yes, but still the concept of the koran as the infallible word of God escapes you. It is THE fundamental rule in islam: the koran is a perfect copy of the mother of all books - which is the infallible book which has been beside God for eternity. The Bible is a lot, lot, lot more spiritual if you take this into consideration - which you must to ever make any kind of intelligent and truthful comparison.

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Ok... so you are agreeing with me then?  ??? ???

Huh? If you agree with what my sentence there says, then I guess we must be in agreement.

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So do you think it's fair to judge and entire civilization that spans millennium by what they have collectively done in the past 100 years? Would it be Ok to judge human evolution, for example, by what humans have done in the past 500-1000 years?


No, when did I judge them for times gone? I made it perfectly clear what time frame I was criticising.

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What did happen in Europe during the Middles Ages dude? Was it a step or two backwards from a human advancement perspective?

You tell me.

http://listverse.com/history/top-10-inventions-of-the-middle-ages/
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Slapper

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #82 on: May 02, 2009, 01:30:31 PM »
Huh? Can you not follow a simple conversation? You were the one saying "who says islam ... you? STFU...". I prove my point with tangible evidence by using the koran and history. I'm starting to come to terms with your issue, I believe you to be a cultural relativist.

You said "Backwardness is a cornerstone of islam" and used misogyny as an example of that backwardness. The problem is that you can just as easily be a misogynist and not be a Muslim. Hence misogyny is not a Muslim problem per se, or at the very least not only a Muslim problem. Thus you used the wrong example to demonstrate Islam's backwardness. Either that or WE are also backward, and I do not think you want to admit to that.

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Also, please show me A SINGLE INSTANCE where I said the Bible DID NOT contain violence. I am simply of the opinion that ISLAM as is written in the KORAN is a more dangerous ideology; in terms of both violence, human rights and other issues.

And yet Christianity, in practice, has somehow achieved as much, if not more, violence and death. And this IS NOT only my humble opinion. It is in the Christian's Book of Love and Compassion.

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Yes yes, but still the concept of the koran as the infallible word of God escapes you. It is THE fundamental rule in islam: the koran is a perfect copy of the mother of all books - which is the infallible book which has been beside God for eternity. The Bible is a lot, lot, lot more spiritual if you take this into consideration - which you must to ever make any kind of intelligent and truthful comparison.

Believe me, I understand exactly what you are trying to say. Thought I do not share your point of view of how a book that contains obvious violent language immediately translates into a violent person (or makes one such). I mean theory is one thing and practice is another.

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Huh? If you agree with what my sentence there says, then I guess we must be in agreement.

If you think Islam is shit, Christianity is shit and all other religions are shit then we're on the same boat.

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No, when did I judge them for times gone? I made it perfectly clear what time frame I was criticising.

http://listverse.com/history/top-10-inventions-of-the-middle-ages/

Early Middle Ages (just to narrow it down a bit) as defined in Wikipedia: "[...]is a term in historiography referring to a period of cultural decline or societal collapse that took place in Western Europe between the fall of Rome and the eventual recovery of learning. [...]Popular culture has further expanded on the term as a vehicle to depict the Middle Ages as a time of backwardness, extending its pejorative use and expanding its scope.".

I think you now officially belong to me.

How big and long would you like your ball and chain to be?

Nordic Superman

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #83 on: May 03, 2009, 06:44:01 AM »
You said "Backwardness is a cornerstone of islam" and used misogyny as an example of that backwardness. The problem is that you can just as easily be a misogynist and not be a Muslim. Hence misogyny is not a Muslim problem per se, or at the very least not only a Muslim problem. Thus you used the wrong example to demonstrate Islam's backwardness. Either that or WE are also backward, and I do not think you want to admit to that.

My example is perfectly acceptable - islam (not individual muslims 100% of the time - unless they uphold every aspect of the koran [as they should]) promotes men above women in many aspects, many degrading in our mindset. Not being a muslim but being an misogynist isn't in question, you point serves no purpose other than to show neither party in discussion is perfect.

Your main point seems to focus on cultural relativism; which is absurd. Simply because (and I agree) that are society isn't 100% equal between the sexes then my position is invalid. It doesn't take a genius to understand and accept my society is much fair to women that the society proposed by islamic law.

I will ask again; are you a cultural relativist?

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And yet Christianity, in practice, has somehow achieved as much, if not more, violence and death. And this IS NOT only my humble opinion. It is in the Christian's Book of Love and Compassion.

Again, irrelevant unless you propose everyone must debate from a cultural relativists position - which is a fallacy. I'm discussing islam, the ideology so instead of using the atrocities caused by adherents to Christian beliefs why not compare the Christian beliefs? Would Nazism be an atrocity inspired by Christian belief much like aspects of what we know as terrorism are inspired by islamic ideology?

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Believe me, I understand exactly what you are trying to say. Thought I do not share your point of view of how a book that contains obvious violent language immediately translates into a violent person (or makes one such). I mean theory is one thing and practice is another.

Muslims aren't guilty by association... prove to me exactly WHERE I have said that? ::)

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If you think Islam is shit, Christianity is shit and all other religions are shit then we're on the same boat.

Early Middle Ages (just to narrow it down a bit) as defined in Wikipedia: "[...]is a term in historiography referring to a period of cultural decline or societal collapse that took place in Western Europe between the fall of Rome and the eventual recovery of learning. [...]Popular culture has further expanded on the term as a vehicle to depict the Middle Ages as a time of backwardness, extending its pejorative use and expanding its scope.".

I think you now officially belong to me.

How big and long would you like your ball and chain to be?

Ha ha, your argument is on shaky ground if you're using POPULAR CULTURE as fact ::)
الاسلام هو شيطانية

pillowtalk

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #84 on: May 03, 2009, 06:53:21 AM »
This is really a very bad thing.  If there is some sort of uprising and the Paki government falls, nukes will fall into Taliban hands.

WTF?   Is going on there?  It look like the paki goverment is losing control of their country.

Steal my posts 'OZMO' - I will look the other way. ::)

How long before a major city, like NY or LA, has a dirty bomb set off slap bang in the center of town ??

It would not kill more than, say 2000 people max, but 'Manhattan island' would have to be evacuated, & it would be left un-inhabitable for 1000's of years.
Bang goes your financial district, fuck, we could change the Monopoly game to suit this theme.

I mean, your borders with Mexico are a fucking joke, that is of course, assuming, that no out-side intelligence agency would be assisting (Hegelian Dialectic) in the transport/delivery of Uranium from an old Pakistani 'ICBM' - how long, in reality, do we all think it's going to be before we see this ??

What would follow would be, in sequential order -
1) declaration of a state of emergency
2) 'FEMA' get to have a fucking party (they have been on the edge of their, collective,  seat for a good while now, just waiting..waiting..waitin g)
3) People are - MADE - to evacuate, where to ?? "FEMA' camps of course.
4) ----------------
5) ----------------



Thought............on 4 & 5.
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pillowtalk

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #85 on: May 03, 2009, 07:00:59 AM »
We might not have too much to worry about going at it alone at least.  India also has vested interest in a stable Paki government.

Yeah.
& India has more - than double the gold bullion -  America has in it's national reserve.

Hahahahaha

Who will keep it up (financially) for the longest ??
You wankers are going to run out of money, yeah open up another theatre why not.
It is what - Zibignew - wants after all. ;) ;D 

Lambs to the slaughter............
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pillowtalk

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #86 on: May 03, 2009, 07:06:46 AM »
Question, does more money equal better results?  (Obama is spending more)
I personally think that more money is in no way indicative of better results but that seems to be your argument.


You can all play dumb for as long as you want.
I can hardly blame you, if I lived there with - NO - way out, I would be shitting it also.

The $$ is on the verge of - HYPER INFLATION.
If the 'OPEC' crew decide  (which is very possible) to fuck off the $$ when it comes to trading in Oil, & go with the Euro, OH-MY !!

The term "shit creak - no paddle" is one that echoes round my head. ;D

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pillowtalk

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #87 on: May 03, 2009, 07:14:49 AM »


Muslim scientists have won 5 Nobel Prizes. Total. Absolutely pathetic.

& who was it that kept all the scientific, astronomical, mathematical, knowledge ( + more)
During the dark ages in 'Europe' ??

Before the colonization of the states, hhhmmmmm.
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pillowtalk

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #88 on: May 03, 2009, 07:19:58 AM »


Muslims are good at reverse engineering and that's it. They can't think for themselves and they aren't innovators. Probably due to their unrelenting worship of a book written 1500 years ago.

As opposed to poeple who subscribe to a book that was written 500 years previously, yeah good point. ::)
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Deicide

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #89 on: May 03, 2009, 07:22:51 AM »
I hate the State.

ToxicAvenger

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #90 on: May 03, 2009, 08:46:11 AM »
As opposed to poeple who subscribe to a book that was written 500 years previously, yeah good point. ::)


pwned!  ;D
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Slapper

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #91 on: May 03, 2009, 08:56:26 AM »
My example is perfectly acceptable - islam (not individual muslims 100% of the time - unless they uphold every aspect of the koran [as they should]) promotes men above women in many aspects, many degrading in our mindset. Not being a muslim but being an misogynist isn't in question, you point serves no purpose other than to show neither party in discussion is perfect.

And how exactly is it a "perfectly acceptable" example? By that line of logic you can just grab any disease and focus it on the Islamic faith. I mean, take your pick: Homsexuality, racism, et cetera. That's how wrong you are. You mix apples and oranges. Mysginy is a human problem not an Islamic problem.

And yes, Islam does promote men above women, but so do the majority of large religions. Heck, in the Christian faith (in Genesis I believe) women come from a rib of a man for peace sake! Look, do me a favor, you do not have to trust my word at any point, just to a google search for "Islam & misogyny" and "Catholicism & misogyny" and see which one gets more hits. Like I said, you do not have to believe my word, check it out.   

I mean, things that really get Westerners upset about radical Islam like the burka and what not... you'd be very surprised that something along those lines was being practised for many years up until very recently (and still today) in Europe: The custom of females wearing black when your husband/dad dies. Up until a few years ago, when carrying the deceased to be buried, the widow used to march in the procession from the house to the cemetery (usually around or near the church) totally covered in black and a thin black veil covering the face. This black-veil-over-the-face practise was eventually stopped, but I am talking about 10-15 years ago. Widows in sourthern Europe STILL wear black and cover their head with a scarf. To this day.     

This is in northern Spain today:





Do you see that little thing on top of their heads? It's nowadays called a peineta, or comb, but years ago it was The Veil that went over the face of the beatas (widows), only that, due to the summer's heat and the fact that the processions were usually done at around 10AM to 12PM the heat would get the better of them and eventually the practise was stopped. It's well known fact that this "tradition" was followed well into Franco's time, with beating's included in some small towns to those who decided not to observe the practise. I'm talking 1950-1970 (more or less). Look at Spain nowadays: 9th richest country in the world, with a population of less than 40 million souls. What happened you my ask? The majority of Spaniards told Catholicism to go fuck itself.

And this is just to give you an example. I mean you can pick and choose "women in the workforce", "women in the workplace", et cetera; a highly misogynist society promoted nonother than "God's Messengers" themselves. And, like I said, this happened until very recently.

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Your main point seems to focus on cultural relativism; which is absurd. Simply because (and I agree) that are society isn't 100% equal between the sexes then my position is invalid. It doesn't take a genius to understand and accept my society is much fair to women that the society proposed by islamic law.

But in making such a far-assed observations shouldn't you at the very least define some things first? Out of respect alone. I mean, what is "my society"? Did anyone do a study on the subject or is your "doesn't take a genius to understand and accept" based solely on personal and obviously biased observation? I mean, why do you keep insisting that I take your word as fact? Once you pick apart the points of contention we can then honestly research the data and come to some reasonable conclusion. Until then I think it is perfectly reasonable to regard my schepticism as a valid point (since nothing has been defined) and your conclusiveness (aka your opinion) as questionable.     

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I will ask again; are you a cultural relativist?

I don't know what a "cultural relativist" is! Look, all I ask of you is to be open minded and not repeat slogans that you read in website x or newspaper y. I'll appreciate it a lot more if your opinion is coming from you and not some blog that you read every morning. Be human, not a robot that takes input from a certain TV station or newspaper alone.

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Again, irrelevant unless you propose everyone must debate from a cultural relativists position - which is a fallacy. I'm discussing islam, the ideology so instead of using the atrocities caused by adherents to Christian beliefs why not compare the Christian beliefs? Would Nazism be an atrocity inspired by Christian belief much like aspects of what we know as terrorism are inspired by islamic ideology?


That is OK if you blur the dividing line between what is theory and what is practise. I mean, we can all agree that the Bible and the Koran are merely theory. We can also agree that these "theories" have been taken into practice and permiated their societies to some degrees, some more than others now but others more than some before. Now, if you take practise alone, or what has actually taken place, we can honestly conclude that Christianism is a much more violent, thus dangerous, religion than Islam. Take Bartolomé de las Casas' account (I believe he was a Dominican priest) and his writings about the "conquest" of America (more like take over) and the 90 million deaths, many of them directly attributable to the catholic church or the Spanish inquisition. Doesn't it strike you as "odd" that even such an intensely secular regime as the Nazis were they did "somehow", when it came time to killing innocent civilians, found it in their "hearts" to kill and slaughter over what are obvious religious lines (Jews vs non-Jews)? Yes, they did kill many other non-Jews, but they did so because they were Gypsies, communists, union workers, et cetera; and not because they were Muslim or Buddists or anything else.         

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Muslims aren't guilty by association... prove to me exactly WHERE I have said that? ::)

One has to only look at your opinions.

Quote
Ha ha, your argument is on shaky ground if you're using POPULAR CULTURE as fact ::)

It wasn't me, it's Wikipedia...

Deicide

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #92 on: May 03, 2009, 09:23:20 AM »
And how exactly is it a "perfectly acceptable" example? By that line of logic you can just grab any disease and focus it on the Islamic faith. I mean, take your pick: Homsexuality, racism, et cetera. That's how wrong you are. You mix apples and oranges. Mysginy is a human problem not an Islamic problem.

And yes, Islam does promote men above women, but so do the majority of large religions. Heck, in the Christian faith (in Genesis I believe) women come from a rib of a man for peace sake! Look, do me a favor, you do not have to trust my word at any point, just to a google search for "Islam & misogyny" and "Catholicism & misogyny" and see which one gets more hits. Like I said, you do not have to believe my word, check it out.   

I mean, things that really get Westerners upset about radical Islam like the burka and what not... you'd be very surprised that something along those lines was being practised for many years up until very recently (and still today) in Europe: The custom of females wearing black when your husband/dad dies. Up until a few years ago, when carrying the deceased to be buried, the widow used to march in the procession from the house to the cemetery (usually around or near the church) totally covered in black and a thin black veil covering the face. This black-veil-over-the-face practise was eventually stopped, but I am talking about 10-15 years ago. Widows in sourthern Europe STILL wear black and cover their head with a scarf. To this day.     

This is in northern Spain today:





Do you see that little thing on top of their heads? It's nowadays called a peineta, or comb, but years ago it was The Veil that went over the face of the beatas (widows), only that, due to the summer's heat and the fact that the processions were usually done at around 10AM to 12PM the heat would get the better of them and eventually the practise was stopped. It's well known fact that this "tradition" was followed well into Franco's time, with beating's included in some small towns to those who decided not to observe the practise. I'm talking 1950-1970 (more or less). Look at Spain nowadays: 9th richest country in the world, with a population of less than 40 million souls. What happened you my ask? The majority of Spaniards told Catholicism to go fuck itself.

And this is just to give you an example. I mean you can pick and choose "women in the workforce", "women in the workplace", et cetera; a highly misogynist society promoted nonother than "God's Messengers" themselves. And, like I said, this happened until very recently.

But in making such a far-assed observations shouldn't you at the very least define some things first? Out of respect alone. I mean, what is "my society"? Did anyone do a study on the subject or is your "doesn't take a genius to understand and accept" based solely on personal and obviously biased observation? I mean, why do you keep insisting that I take your word as fact? Once you pick apart the points of contention we can then honestly research the data and come to some reasonable conclusion. Until then I think it is perfectly reasonable to regard my schepticism as a valid point (since nothing has been defined) and your conclusiveness (aka your opinion) as questionable.     

I don't know what a "cultural relativist" is! Look, all I ask of you is to be open minded and not repeat slogans that you read in website x or newspaper y. I'll appreciate it a lot more if your opinion is coming from you and not some blog that you read every morning. Be human, not a robot that takes input from a certain TV station or newspaper alone.
 

That is OK if you blur the dividing line between what is theory and what is practise. I mean, we can all agree that the Bible and the Koran are merely theory. We can also agree that these "theories" have been taken into practice and permiated their societies to some degrees, some more than others now but others more than some before. Now, if you take practise alone, or what has actually taken place, we can honestly conclude that Christianism is a much more violent, thus dangerous, religion than Islam. Take Bartolomé de las Casas' account (I believe he was a Dominican priest) and his writings about the "conquest" of America (more like take over) and the 90 million deaths, many of them directly attributable to the catholic church or the Spanish inquisition. Doesn't it strike you as "odd" that even such an intensely secular regime as the Nazis were they did "somehow", when it came time to killing innocent civilians, found it in their "hearts" to kill and slaughter over what are obvious religious lines (Jews vs non-Jews)? Yes, they did kill many other non-Jews, but they did so because they were Gypsies, communists, union workers, et cetera; and not because they were Muslim or Buddists or anything else.         

One has to only look at your opinions.

It wasn't me, it's Wikipedia...


I hate the State.

Slapper

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #93 on: May 03, 2009, 09:50:54 AM »



That is exactly my point!!

All religions are shit!!

Slapper

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #94 on: May 03, 2009, 10:03:08 AM »
This does not make front page:



This does:



Don't get me wrong, both are wrong, here, in China, in the X Century or whether you're a Muslim or Scientologists.


Slapper

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #95 on: May 03, 2009, 10:08:20 AM »
And since Nordic has used misoginy as an example of Islam's "backwardness", here is a little excert from Wikipedia about women's rights from a historical perspective:

"Historical background
 
Suffrage parade, New York City, May 6, 1912Until the mid-nineteenth century, writers assumed that a patriarchal order was a natural order that had existed[3] as John Stuart Mill wrote, since "the very earliest twilight of human society".[4] This was not seriously challenged until the eighteenth century when Jesuit missionaries found matrilineality in native North American peoples.[5]

In the Middle Ages, an early effort to improve the status of women in Islam occurred during the early reforms under Islam, when women were given greater rights in marriage, divorce and inheritance.[6] Women were not accorded with such legal status in other cultures, including the West, until centuries later.[7] The Oxford Dictionary of Islam states that the general improvement of the status of Arab women included prohibition of female infanticide and recognizing women's full personhood.[8] "The dowry, previously regarded as a bride-price paid to the father, became a nuptial gift retained by the wife as part of her personal property."[9][6] Under Islamic law, marriage was no longer viewed as a "status" but rather as a "contract", in which the woman's consent was imperative.[9][6][8] "Women were given inheritance rights in a patriarchal society that had previously restricted inheritance to male relatives."[6] Annemarie Schimmel states that "compared to the pre-Islamic position of women, Islamic legislation meant an enormous progress; the woman has the right, at least according to the letter of the law, to administer the wealth she has brought into the family or has earned by her own work."[10] According to Professor William Montgomery Watt, when seen in such historical context, Muhammad "can be seen as a figure who testified on behalf of women’s rights."[11]

Some have claimed that women generally had more legal rights under Islamic law than they did under Western legal systems until more recent times.[12] English Common Law transferred property held by a wife at the time of a marriage to her husband, which contrasted with the Sura: "Unto men (of the family) belongs a share of that which Parents and near kindred leave, and unto women a share of that which parents and near kindred leave, whether it be a little or much - a determinate share" (Quran 4:7), albeit maintaining that husbands were solely responsible for the maintenance and leadership of his wife and family.[12] "French married women, unlike their Muslim sisters, suffered from restrictions on their legal capacity which were removed only in 1965."[13]

In the 16th century, the Reformation in Europe allowed more women to add their voices, including the English writers Jane Anger, Aemilia Lanyer, and the prophetess Anna Trapnell. However, it has been claimed that the Dissolution and resulting closure of convents had deprived many such women of one path to education.[14][15][16] Giving voice in the secular context became more difficult when deprived of the rationale and protection of divine inspiration. Queen Elizabeth I demonstrated leadership amongst women, even if she was unsupportive of their causes, and subsequently became a role model for the education of women.[17]
[/b]"

Nordic Superman

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #96 on: May 05, 2009, 06:19:23 AM »
And how exactly is it a "perfectly acceptable" example? By that line of logic you can just grab any disease and focus it on the Islamic faith. I mean, take your pick: Homsexuality, racism, et cetera. That's how wrong you are. You mix apples and oranges. Mysginy is a human problem not an Islamic problem.

And yes, Islam does promote men above women, but so do the majority of large religions. Heck, in the Christian faith (in Genesis I believe) women come from a rib of a man for peace sake! Look, do me a favor, you do not have to trust my word at any point, just to a google search for "Islam & misogyny" and "Catholicism & misogyny" and see which one gets more hits. Like I said, you do not have to believe my word, check it out.   

I mean, things that really get Westerners upset about radical Islam like the burka and what not... you'd be very surprised that something along those lines was being practised for many years up until very recently (and still today) in Europe: The custom of females wearing black when your husband/dad dies. Up until a few years ago, when carrying the deceased to be buried, the widow used to march in the procession from the house to the cemetery (usually around or near the church) totally covered in black and a thin black veil covering the face. This black-veil-over-the-face practise was eventually stopped, but I am talking about 10-15 years ago. Widows in sourthern Europe STILL wear black and cover their head with a scarf. To this day.     

This is in northern Spain today:





Do you see that little thing on top of their heads? It's nowadays called a peineta, or comb, but years ago it was The Veil that went over the face of the beatas (widows), only that, due to the summer's heat and the fact that the processions were usually done at around 10AM to 12PM the heat would get the better of them and eventually the practise was stopped. It's well known fact that this "tradition" was followed well into Franco's time, with beating's included in some small towns to those who decided not to observe the practise. I'm talking 1950-1970 (more or less). Look at Spain nowadays: 9th richest country in the world, with a population of less than 40 million souls. What happened you my ask? The majority of Spaniards told Catholicism to go fuck itself.

And this is just to give you an example. I mean you can pick and choose "women in the workforce", "women in the workplace", et cetera; a highly misogynist society promoted nonother than "God's Messengers" themselves. And, like I said, this happened until very recently.

But in making such a far-assed observations shouldn't you at the very least define some things first? Out of respect alone. I mean, what is "my society"? Did anyone do a study on the subject or is your "doesn't take a genius to understand and accept" based solely on personal and obviously biased observation? I mean, why do you keep insisting that I take your word as fact? Once you pick apart the points of contention we can then honestly research the data and come to some reasonable conclusion. Until then I think it is perfectly reasonable to regard my schepticism as a valid point (since nothing has been defined) and your conclusiveness (aka your opinion) as questionable.     

I don't know what a "cultural relativist" is! Look, all I ask of you is to be open minded and not repeat slogans that you read in website x or newspaper y. I'll appreciate it a lot more if your opinion is coming from you and not some blog that you read every morning. Be human, not a robot that takes input from a certain TV station or newspaper alone.
 

That is OK if you blur the dividing line between what is theory and what is practise. I mean, we can all agree that the Bible and the Koran are merely theory. We can also agree that these "theories" have been taken into practice and permiated their societies to some degrees, some more than others now but others more than some before. Now, if you take practise alone, or what has actually taken place, we can honestly conclude that Christianism is a much more violent, thus dangerous, religion than Islam. Take Bartolomé de las Casas' account (I believe he was a Dominican priest) and his writings about the "conquest" of America (more like take over) and the 90 million deaths, many of them directly attributable to the catholic church or the Spanish inquisition. Doesn't it strike you as "odd" that even such an intensely secular regime as the Nazis were they did "somehow", when it came time to killing innocent civilians, found it in their "hearts" to kill and slaughter over what are obvious religious lines (Jews vs non-Jews)? Yes, they did kill many other non-Jews, but they did so because they were Gypsies, communists, union workers, et cetera; and not because they were Muslim or Buddists or anything else.         

One has to only look at your opinions.

It wasn't me, it's Wikipedia...

Again more and more points based on cultural relativism...

Even if the Bible DICTATED that a women MUST wear a garment like a burqa; that's a non-issue - this thread isn't about being limited to fallacies based cultural relativism.

I just don't get your issue - I agree with what you have to say about other religions, yet you can't accept that I highlight islam due to its unique ideology - so you come along with stupid points trying to enforce your mindset of easily debunked cultural relativism.

Oh and you see the blonde women covered in blood in the bottom of the first picture? If I recall correctly she was raped by muslim immigrants in Sweden that did so because of the way she was dressed and wasn't acceptable in the eyes of the koran.

And since Nordic has used misoginy as an example of Islam's "backwardness", here is a little excert from Wikipedia about women's rights from a historical perspective:

And since Slapper doesn't accept criticism towards islam exclusively and tries to enforce his idiotic and stupid cultural relevant on every topic... he's a retard!
الاسلام هو شيطانية

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Re: Taliban inches close to Islamabad. So much for that cease fire.
« Reply #97 on: May 05, 2009, 09:47:37 AM »
Again more and more points based on cultural relativism...

Even if the Bible DICTATED that a women MUST wear a garment like a burqa; that's a non-issue - this thread isn't about being limited to fallacies based cultural relativism.

I just don't get your issue - I agree with what you have to say about other religions, yet you can't accept that I highlight islam due to its unique ideology - so you come along with stupid points trying to enforce your mindset of easily debunked cultural relativism.

Oh and you see the blonde women covered in blood in the bottom of the first picture? If I recall correctly she was raped by muslim immigrants in Sweden that did so because of the way she was dressed and wasn't acceptable in the eyes of the koran.

And since Slapper doesn't accept criticism towards islam exclusively and tries to enforce his idiotic and stupid cultural relevant on every topic... he's a retard!

Yes, that women was, in-fact, raped by Muslim immigrants. They also said that Swedish women deserved to be raped for dressing the way they do and that some of them intend to continue beating and raping women as it's warranted by the Koran. Remember, the laws of a 1500 year old book > the laws of the country you move to.

What amuses me about Slapper and his incessant need to bring up Christianity in every thread regarding Islam is that the people he's debating with are atheists.  ::)