Author Topic: Busted  (Read 1428 times)

Butterbean

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Busted
« on: April 22, 2009, 02:51:43 PM »
Will you please post your definition of Socialism?

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Busted

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Re: Busted
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2009, 03:08:37 PM »
Will you please post your definition of Socialism?



Socialism is a ideology...  Its what a government feels are basic human rights for its citizens... and there is nothing wrong with Socialism to a certian extent... In our country we need a little of everything... Socialism, Communism, Capitalism etc... Jut cant be just 1 of them...

We are a socialist society, just not extreme like others... we have MANY social programs that are a MUST, Police, Schools, Hospitals, Medicare, Social Security etc..

Sweden for example... Every Citizen gets a TV, Computer, internet, and College Education and Health care...


Butterbean

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Re: Busted
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2009, 06:41:28 PM »
Socialism is a ideology...  Its what a government feels are basic human rights for its citizens... and there is nothing wrong with Socialism to a certian extent... In our country we need a little of everything... Socialism, Communism, Capitalism etc... Jut cant be just 1 of them...

We are a socialist society, just not extreme like others... we have MANY social programs that are a MUST, Police, Schools, Hospitals, Medicare, Social Security etc..

Sweden for example... Every Citizen gets a TV, Computer, internet, and College Education and Health care...


Thanks for your answer, Busted.  But can you please give a little more detail in your definition? 

For instance, this is the Merriam-Webster definition:

Socialism:
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done



My main question is in to regard that you have stated that you are the sole owner of one company and the co-owner of another company (privately held, I assume).  

Let's say hypothetically you make on average about 5 Million per year.  Do you favor the government capping your salary at your own companies to something smaller than that to spread your wealth around to others...and that you would have no say in who receives that part of your money?   Would you not prefer to be in control of your money and give charitably to the people/organizations of which you approve?

Also, aren't the majority of hospitals privately held organizations? 
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Hedgehog

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Re: Busted
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2009, 01:34:19 AM »
Socialism is a ideology...  Its what a government feels are basic human rights for its citizens... and there is nothing wrong with Socialism to a certian extent... In our country we need a little of everything... Socialism, Communism, Capitalism etc... Jut cant be just 1 of them...

We are a socialist society, just not extreme like others... we have MANY social programs that are a MUST, Police, Schools, Hospitals, Medicare, Social Security etc..

Sweden for example... Every Citizen gets a TV, Computer, internet, and College Education and Health care...



You're correct about the college education and the health care (to a certain degree), but TV, computer and internet are not free.

Although there were a "Home-PC" reform running for some ten years that stopped two-three years ago, which allowed companies to sponsor their employees with PC's and get a tax deduction.

It is one of the reasons Sweden is on the forefront when it comes to IT and computers IMHO.

But there were never any free computers though.

As for the health care, you have to pay around $30 when visiting a doctor. But you don't have to spend more than $100 in one year, that's a limit. Everything over that you get "for free" - or rather, the tax bill covers it.


FWIW, I do not believe that either Sweden, USA or any nation I can think of right now is Socialist.

Cuba?

No. And the reason is because there is very little similarity between the Cuban society and what is described in the Communist Manifesto, or if you read any of Lenin's theories as well.

To understand Socialism, and Communism, you gotta start with the dialectical materialism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism

What it all boils down to is that there's thesis-antithesis-synthesis

An action leads to a counteraction which leads to a progression in history.

The next step on the ladder.

Eg, how feodalism became obsolete, small city-states conquered by or united into bigger kingdoms is a perfect example of this process.

How these kingdoms, where nobles are on top, are later replaced by states run by the "borgouise", the merchant class, is yet another step.

Then there are plenty of more steps.

But there is no socialism or communism until the final step on the ladder - where there is no government anymore and everything is de-centralized.


That's pretty much it.


To try to use Socialist ideas and principles in a political agenda is different matter though.
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Hedgehog

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Re: Busted
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2009, 01:39:27 AM »
Will you please post your definition of Socialism?



What is your definition of Socialism?

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Butterbean

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Re: Busted
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2009, 07:23:32 AM »
What is your definition of Socialism?



I'd say it's probably been pretty close to the below except the "no private property" part...I had never considered that as a part of the definition.


 

For instance, this is the Merriam-Webster definition:

Socialism:
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done






But there is no socialism or communism until the final step on the ladder - where there is no government anymore and everything is de-centralized.


Our definitions are nothing at all the same.  Mine would cover bigger government w/more power and you say yours is no government at all.  Who would be making the laws/decisions for the Socialist Nation in your scenario?




As for the health care, you have to pay around $30 when visiting a doctor. But you don't have to spend more than $100 in one year, that's a limit.

That would be great!




Everything over that you get "for free" - or rather, the tax bill covers it.



What is the tax bill that covers your healthcare if you go over $100 in one year?  Is it a bill to the individual?



Another question about your health care system.  Is it difficult to see a doctor or schedule timely surgery? 

I read a few articles about the system in Canada where sometimes people are unable to get a surgery scheduled for months even if they need it right away.  It also said they are free to go to the US and pay for it themselves though but may not be reimbursed.   Is that the case in Sweden or do you feel your people are attended to in a timely fashion?




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Bindare_Dundat

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Re: Busted
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2009, 07:55:55 AM »
Is anything really free? Someone is paying for it. That whole "free" thing is a myth.

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: Busted
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2009, 08:05:35 AM »

I read a few articles about the system in Canada where sometimes people are unable to get a surgery scheduled for months even if they need it right away. 





It all depends on the procedure. I know MRI scans can take a long time unless someone cancels. I think I read that some breast examinations were a long wait but I'm not sure. I know a few years ago there were quite a few reports of Canadians going to the States for procedures because the wait for cwertain machines was just too long for some. I'm sure Jag would know better.

Deicide

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Re: Busted
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2009, 08:10:43 AM »
It all depends on the procedure. I know MRI scans can take a long time unless someone cancels. I think I read that some breast examinations were a long wait but I'm not sure. I know a few years ago there were quite a few reports of Canadians going to the States for procedures because the wait for cwertain machines was just too long for some. I'm sure Jag would know better.

Everything has its pros and cons...
I hate the State.

Butterbean

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Re: Busted
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2009, 06:24:42 AM »
Thanks for your answer, Busted.  But can you please give a little more detail in your definition? 

For instance, this is the Merriam-Webster definition:

Socialism:
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done



My main question is in to regard that you have stated that you are the sole owner of one company and the co-owner of another company (privately held, I assume).  

Let's say hypothetically you make on average about 5 Million per year.  Do you favor the government capping your salary at your own companies to something smaller than that to spread your wealth around to others...and that you would have no say in who receives that part of your money?   Would you not prefer to be in control of your money and give charitably to the people/organizations of which you approve?

Also, aren't the majority of hospitals privately held organizations? 

Bump for Busted in case he didn't see this.


Also, Busted, do you feel your definition of Socialism more like mine or Hedge's?

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George Whorewell

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Re: Busted
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2009, 07:51:38 AM »
I'm pretty sure a mod deleted this already, but I'll post it again anyway.

Stella- you would be better off asking the German Shepard in your avatar to solve complex algebraic equations than to ask Busted to give his opinion on anything that involves thinking or reason.

Nordic Superman

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Re: Busted
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2009, 08:23:21 AM »
Is anything really free? Someone is paying for it. That whole "free" thing is a myth.

Exactly, nothing is free, the mentality behind most peoples obsessions with socialism is the same one that got us in the financial mess we're in.

That is of course not to say some principles of socialism aren't logical. My personal belief is that aspects of government should be socialist; health care, education, police / fire services and military for example are inherently socialist. A free life provided by satanical distribution of wealth however is something I can never accept.
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Butterbean

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Re: Busted
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2009, 08:33:00 AM »
I'm pretty sure a mod deleted this already, but I'll post it again anyway.

Stella- you would be better off asking the German Shepard in your avatar to solve complex algebraic equations than to ask Busted to give his opinion on anything that involves thinking or reason.

OK thanks.  He doesn't seem to want to answer or maybe he's just busy.








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tonymctones

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Re: Busted
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2009, 08:44:51 AM »
hahahah cool vid stella that looks like a really happy dog  ;D

Butterbean

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Re: Busted
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2009, 09:14:10 AM »
hahahah cool vid stella that looks like a really happy dog  ;D
She seems to be....she is a goof!




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tonymctones

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Re: Busted
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2009, 09:26:55 AM »
She seems to be....she is a goof!





do german shepards have spots on their tongues too or is she part chow?

Hedgehog

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Re: Busted
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2009, 08:59:39 AM »

I'd say it's probably been pretty close to the below except the "no private property" part...I had never considered that as a part of the definition.

Ok.



Our definitions are nothing at all the same.  Mine would cover bigger government w/more power and you say yours is no government at all.  Who would be making the laws/decisions for the Socialist Nation in your scenario?

My scenario? It's not really my scenario. What I described is what socialists and communists believe to be the final step in the the Communist dialectic.

But to answer your question, these small communities, are supposed to be independent and governed through community consent from what I gather. 

One thing is clear though - there are no states, no global doctrines, no unions or anything similar at that level.



That would be great!

As I pointed out though, you still pay for it through taxes. However, those who are not able to pay taxes, eg kids, sick people, jobless people, et al... are still covered by the healthcare. So for these people, I guess you could say it is "free". At least at a certain time in life. Most will be paying for the healthcare through taxes during their lives.


What is the tax bill that covers your healthcare if you go over $100 in one year?  Is it a bill to the individual?

I'm not sure I understand the question. However, part of income tax goes to the healthcare system.

So you will pay that whether you're sick or not. If you're healthy as a daisy and won't need treatment, surgery or even a checkup even once in your life then this healthcare system is obviously gonna be one where you give and won't receive much in return directly.

One interesting thing to mention is that there is also a medicine subsidization program. Essentially, you will only have to pay $230 every year for your subscription medicine. After that everything you won't have to "pay" - except through the taxes.

Another question about your health care system.  Is it difficult to see a doctor or schedule timely surgery? 

I read a few articles about the system in Canada where sometimes people are unable to get a surgery scheduled for months even if they need it right away.  It also said they are free to go to the US and pay for it themselves though but may not be reimbursed.   Is that the case in Sweden or do you feel your people are attended to in a timely fashion?


Legit question.

I can only give an anecdotal answer to your question since I'm no medical expert.

A friend of mine was diagnosed with kidney stones, non acute. He got scheduled for a surgery within 4 weeks I believe.

Then one week before the surgery his surgery was cancelled and re-scheduled.

And here's what I thought was actually good about that - it was re-scheduled because a woman with breast cancer deemed acute needed to get in ASAP.

His surgery was re-scheduled for one week later and went well.

So from that little experience I would say that all urgent surgeries are done really fast.

I know two friends who tore a biceps tendon. One had it re-attached the same night, one got it done the day after.

Because those types of injuries needs to be operated on fast.

So with the limited knowledge I have, and that is honestly pretty limited, I would rate the system pretty good.

Biggest reason: the doctors always gets to decide who should get a surgery first.

And even if you got a non acute problem, like my buddy, it doesn't seem like the surgery waiting lists really are that long IMO.



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Bindare_Dundat

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Re: Busted
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2009, 12:08:50 PM »
OK thanks.  He doesn't seem to want to answer or maybe he's just busy.



She is pretty smart  :D







WOW thats one talented dog. :)

Butterbean

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Re: Busted
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2009, 01:32:08 PM »
WOW thats one talented dog. :)

Thank you!


And thanks Hedge for that info.
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Deicide

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Re: Busted
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2009, 01:44:01 PM »
Thank you!


And thanks Hedge for that info.

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I hate the State.

Butterbean

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Re: Busted
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2009, 01:55:29 PM »
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Soul Crusher

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Re: Busted
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2009, 06:08:20 AM »
I'm pretty sure a mod deleted this already, but I'll post it again anyway.

Stella- you would be better off asking the German Shepard in your avatar to solve complex algebraic equations than to ask Busted to give his opinion on anything that involves thinking or reason.

Classic.  He should start by going back to grade school and re-learn how to spell.