Author Topic: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment  (Read 3572 times)

headhuntersix

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I was just going to post the AP link...but those douchbags just didn't do it justice.

From ACE of SPADES.

Congratulations to the not anti-American, just pro-terrorist ACLU for their victory. They, others on the left and S&M fetishists everywhere are of course giddy over Obama's new commitment to "transparency".

Naturally all this transparency (which oddly enough still doesn't include the memos showing the results of the program. Funny that*) comes at a price.

Calling the ACLU push to release the photographs "prurient" and "reprehensible," Dr. Mark M. Lowenthal, former Assistant Director of Central Intelligence for Analysis and Production, tells ABC News that the Obama administration should have taken the case all the way to the Supreme Court.
"They should have fought it all the way; if they lost, they lost," Lowenthal said. "There's nothing to be gained from it. There's no substantive reason why those photos have to be released."

Lowenthal said the president's moves in the last week have left many in the CIA dispirited, based on "the undercurrent I've been getting from colleagues still in the building, or colleagues who have left not that long ago."

"We ask these people to do extremely dangerous things, things they've been ordered to do by legal authorities, with the understanding that they will get top cover if something goes wrong," Lowenthal says. "They don't believe they have that cover anymore." Releasing the photographs "will make it much worse," he said.


If, God forbid, there's an attack on US soil during Obama's term, I don't want to hear "sorry about that" from him, Sullivan, Greenwald/Ellers and the rest. I want them to man up and say, "this is an acceptable price to pay for not being mean to those misunderstood Islamists".

Choices have consequences. My fear is we are all going to pay for theirs.


*And for the breathless lefties, no I'm not saying the ends justify the means. What I am saying is that 'transparency' is bullshit when it's selective. It's also impossible to have a reasonable public debate when the full context of such visceral images is being withheld.

If you really want to have this debate, fine. Just don't pretend this is a real debate or that Obama is doing anything but playing politics with national security.

Reminder from "Lee" in the comments...

And yet showing footage of the planes crashing into the World Trade Center is somehow crude.
Did I mention the whole, not-anti American, just pro-terrorist thing? Yes, I believe I did.


Barry doesn't have to live with the day to day consequences of his cowardly actions....I bet if his to daughters were in Iraq, he'd think twice.

L

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2009, 10:08:11 AM »
Hey, if they didnt break the law they don't have shit to worry about.

And, if they DID break the law, then they deserve to rot in a fuckin prison cell.


headhuntersix

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2009, 10:12:03 AM »
Says the guy who won't ever deploy to a war zone, which Barry just made worse. Fuck him.....piece of shit.
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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2009, 10:14:09 AM »
there were some agents who quit or transferred because they didn't want to follow torture orders.  the same thing I would have done. 

If you were an interrogator and you were suddenly ordered to go against all your training, Geneva, and the law...

well, ya should lawyer up or start pointing fingers.

I dont have a bit of sympathy for the taleban prisoners.  I think they should have been tried and hanged by now.  But the law is the law.  If you can't follow it, well...

headhuntersix

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2009, 10:34:00 AM »
Regardless...the ACLU has no fucking right to post pics....just like u have no right to know what the SEALS,TF 16/TF 19, TFO..CAG and a million other units do to defend this country. The ACLU doesn't think of 2nd order effects and further has no legal authority to ask for pics pertaining to a foreign national, yet the libs caved and here we are. I redeploy to Iraq at the end of Nov. If the ACLU actions cost the lives of any of my soldiers because of massive increases in violence, I'll come back and skin the fuckers. The ACLU does nothing to protect this country or anybodies civil rights. They protect minority views against the overwhelming majority on any given issue and force bullshit down our throats.
L

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2009, 10:41:57 AM »
Regardless...the ACLU has no fucking right to post pics....just like u have no right to know what the SEALS,TF 16/TF 19, TFO..CAG and a million other units do to defend this country. The ACLU doesn't think of 2nd order effects and further has no legal authority to ask for pics pertaining to a foreign national, yet the libs caved and here we are. I redeploy to Iraq at the end of Nov. If the ACLU actions cost the lives of any of my soldiers because of massive increases in violence, I'll come back and skin the fuckers. The ACLU does nothing to protect this country or anybodies civil rights. They protect minority views against the overwhelming majority on any given issue and force bullshit down our throats.
Since its founding, the ACLU has been involved in many cases. A few of the most significant are discussed here.


1920–1960
In 1925, the ACLU persuaded John T. Scopes to defy Tennessee's anti-evolution law in a court test. Clarence Darrow, a member of the ACLU National Committee, headed Scopes' legal team. The prosecution, led by William Jennings Bryan, contended that the Bible should be interpreted literally in teaching creationism in school. The ACLU lost the case and Scopes was fined $100. The Tennessee Supreme Court later upheld the law but overturned the conviction on a technicality.[76][77]
In 1954, the ACLU filed an amicus brief in the case of Brown v. Board of Education, which led to the ban on racial segregation in U.S. public schools.[78]
1960–2000
In 1967, the ACLU successfully argued against state bans on interracial marriage, in the case of Loving v. Virginia.[79]
In 1973, the ACLU was the first major national organization to call for the impeachment of President Richard Nixon, giving as reasons the Nixon administration's violations of civil liberties.[11] That same year, the ACLU was involved in the cases of Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton, in which the Supreme Court held that the constitutional right of privacy extended to women seeking abortions.
In 1977, the ACLU filed suit against the Village of Skokie, Illinois, seeking an injunction against the enforcement of three town ordinances outlawing Neo-Nazi parades and demonstrations. Skokie, Illinois at the time had a majority population of Jews, totaling 40,000 of 70,000 citizens. A federal district court struck down the ordinances in a decision eventually affirmed by the Supreme Court. The ACLU's action in this case led to a rift between the Jewish Defense League and the ACLU. According to David Hamlin, executive director of the Illinois ACLU, "...the Chicago office which chose to provide legal counsel to neo-Nazis who have been planning to march in Skokie, has lost about 25% of its membership and nearly one-third of its budget." 30,000 ACLU members resigned in protest.[80][81][82] In his February 23, 1978 decision overturning the town ordinances, US District Court Judge Bernard M. Decker described the principle involved in the case as follows: "It is better to allow those who preach racial hatred to expend their venom in rhetoric rather than to be panicked into embarking on the dangerous course of permitting the government to decide what its citizens may say and hear ... The ability of American society to tolerate the advocacy of even hateful doctrines ... is perhaps the best protection we have against the establishment of any Nazi-type regime in this country."[83]
In the 1980s, the ACLU filed suit to challenge the Arkansas 1981 creationism statute, which required the teaching in public schools of the biblical account of creation as a scientific alternative to evolution. The law was declared unconstitutional by a Federal District Court.[84]
In 1982, the ACLU became involved in a case involving the distribution of child pornography (New York v. Ferber).[85] In an amicus brief, the ACLU argued that the law in question "has criminalized the dissemination, sale or display of constitutionally protected non-obscene materials which portray juveniles in sexually related roles," while arguing that child pornography deemed obscene under the Miller test deserved no constitutional protection and could be banned.[86]
2000–present
In November 2000, 15 African American residents of Hearne, Texas were indicted on drug charges after being arrested in a series of "drug sweeps". The ACLU filed a class action lawsuit, Kelly v. Paschall, on their behalf, alleging that the arrests were unlawful. The ACLU contended that 15 percent of Hearne's male African American population aged 18 to 34 were arrested based on the "uncorroborated word of a single unreliable confidential informant coerced by police to make cases." On May 11, 2005, the ACLU and Robertson County announced a confidential settlement of the lawsuit, an outcome which "both sides stated that they were satisfied with." The District Attorney dismissed the charges against the plaintiffs of the suit.[87] The upcoming film American Violet depicts this case.[88]
In a 2002 letter, the ACLU stated that it "opposes child pornography that uses real children in its depictions," but that material "which is produced without using real children, and is not otherwise obscene, is protected under the First Amendment."[89]
During the 2004 trial regarding allegations of Rush Limbaugh's drug abuse, the ACLU argued that his privacy should not have been compromised by allowing law enforcement examination of his medical records.[90]
In June 2004, the ACLU received numerous phone calls from angry parents after the Dover Area School District in Dover, Pennsylvania passed a curriculum change requiring that its high school biology students be read a one-minute statement saying that the theory of evolution is not fact and mentioning intelligent design as an alternative theory. Believing that the school was promoting a religious idea in the classroom and violating the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, several Dover parents called the ACLU to discuss a possible lawsuit against the school. The ACLU, along with Americans United for Separation of Church and State and Pepper Hamilton, LLP, went on to represent the parents, the plaintiffs, in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District. After a more than 40-day trial, Judge John E. Jones III ruled in favor of the plaintiffs, finding that intelligent design is not science and permanently forbidding the Dover school system from teaching intelligent design in science classes.[91]
In January 2006, the ACLU filed a lawsuit, ACLU v. NSA, in a federal district court in Michigan, challenging government spying in the NSA warrantless surveillance controversy.[92] On August 17, 2006, that court ruled that the warrantless wiretapping program is unconstitutional and ordered it ended immediately.[93] However, the order is stayed pending an appeal. The Bush administration did suspend the program while the appeal was being heard.[94] In February 2008, the US Supreme Court "turned down an appeal from the [ACLU] to let it pursue a lawsuit against the program that began shortly after the Sept. 11 terror attacks."[95]
The ACLU and other organizations also filed separate lawsuits around the country against telecommunications companies. The ACLU filed a lawsuit in Illinois (Terkel v. AT&T) which was dismissed because of the State Secrets Privilege[96] and two others in California requesting injunctions against AT&T and Verizon.[97] On August 10, 2006, the lawsuits against the telecommunications companies were transferred to a federal judge in San Francisco.[98]
After the town of Hazleton, Pennsylvania passed an ordinance to punish landlords who rented to illegal immigrants and businesses who hired illegal immigrants, the ACLU and Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund sued Hazleton, saying the ordinance was unconstitutional.[99][100] On July 26, 2007, a federal court agreed and struck down the Hazleton ordinance; Hazleton's mayor promised to appeal the decision.[101]
In 2008, the ACLU stated that it would represent defendants arrested in Flint, Michigan for disorderly conduct when sagging (wearing pants low enough to show underwear), partly on the basis of unconstitutional racial profiling.[102]
After the City of Indianapolis, Indiana began cracking down on when, where and how homeless persons can solicit donations, the ACLU sued Indianapolis, claiming the city's police unconstitutionally forced homeless persons to produce identification without probable cause.[103]

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2009, 10:44:54 AM »
I guess it started on a bad foot by trying to take on the Creationists eh? 

The ACLU is nothing but a force for good and for justice which moves the zeitgeist along in a positive direction.

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2009, 10:48:52 AM »
Regardless...the ACLU has no fucking right to post pics....

ACLU sued under freedom of info act.

a federal judge said they did have the right.

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2009, 10:53:24 AM »
The ACLU even defended Rush Limbaugh in 2004.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108140,00.html
ACLU Comes to Rush Limbaugh's Defense




Monday, January 12, 2004
By Catherine Donaldson-Evans



WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. —  Talk radio host Rush Limbaugh (search) probably never expected the American Civil Liberties Union (search) to become one of his staunch supporters.

But the privacy rights group was on his side Monday when its Florida branch filed a "friend-of-court" motion on behalf of Limbaugh arguing state officials were wrong in seizing his medical records for their drug probe.

"For many people, it may seem odd that the ACLU has come to the defense of Rush Limbaugh," ACLU of Florida Executive Director Howard Simon said in a released statement.

"But we have always said that the ACLU's real client is the Bill of Rights, and we will continue to safeguard the values of equality, fairness and privacy for everyone, regardless of race, economic status or political point of view," Simon said.

The ACLU contends that state law enforcement officers violated Limbaugh's privacy rights by taking possession of his medical records as part of their criminal investigation into the commentator's alleged "doctor-shopping" to feed his prescription-drug addiction.


 Rush Limbaugh's Statement

"While this case involves the right of Rush Limbaugh to maintain the privacy of his medical records, the precedent set in this case will impact the security of medical records and the privacy of the doctor-patient relationship of every person in Florida," Simon said in his statement.

The motion, filed with the Fourth District Court of Appeal (search), claims the state encroached upon the Florida constitution's right to privacy when law enforcement officials confiscated Limbaugh's medical files.

The ACLU said it was trying to "to vindicate every Floridian's fundamental right to privacy by ensuring that the state be required to comply" with the law.

Its motion comes a week after a judge ruled that Limbaugh's medical records were to stay out of prosecutors' hands for at least 15 days more while his lawyers worked on an appeal to permanently seal them.

Limbaugh's attorneys asked for the extension while they appealed the judge's earlier decision allowing prosecutors to examine the files for evidence that the commentator illegally purchased painkillers.

The records included "the most private conversations between doctor and patient," the radio host's lawyer, Mark Shapiro, said last week.

Investigators seized the records last month after discovering that Limbaugh received more than 2,000 painkillers, prescribed by four doctors, at a pharmacy near his Palm Beach mansion.

Limbaugh's former maid told investigators she had been supplying him prescription painkillers for years.

Limbaugh admitted his addiction to prescription painkillers in October, saying it stemmed from severe back pain. He took a five-week leave from his afternoon radio show to enter a rehabilitation program.

Prosecutors have not filed charges against Limbaugh and their investigation will be delayed until the court decides whether to keep the records sealed past the new deadline.

The radio host and his legal team have criticized Palm Beach State Attorney Barry Krischer (search), a Democrat, for opening the records and accused prosecutors of pursuing Limbaugh for political reasons.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2009, 12:31:33 PM »
Of course he's going to release the photos.  He's still running for office.  This guy is a disaster so far. 

And let's not forget the ACLU defended NAMBLA:

ACLU To Represent NAMBLA
By Martin Finucane
Associated Press Writer
Thursday, Aug. 31, 2000; 5:19 p.m. EDT

BOSTON –– Saying important First Amendment issues are at stake, the American Civil Liberties Union is stepping in to defend a group that advocates sex between men and boys against a lawsuit brought by the family of a murdered 10-year-old.

The family of Jeffrey Curley of Cambridge claims in its lawsuit that the North American Man/Boy Love Association and its Web site incited the molestation and murder of the boy in 1997.

The Massachusetts chapter of the ACLU said Thursday it will defend NAMBLA because the group's activities are protected under First Amendment guarantees of freedom of speech and freedom of association.

"Under the First Amendment, there are no illegal ideas. Those who commit illegal acts can be punished for wrongful conduct, but the expression of even offensive ideas is protected by our Constitution," the ACLU said in a statement.

The ACLU has long accepted unpopular clients and despised causes, including Ku Klux Klansmen and neo-Nazis. In 1977, the ACLU defended the right of Nazis to march in Skokie, Ill. – home to many Holocaust survivors. Thousands of ACLU members quit and contributions plunged.

"The Constitution is for everybody. But there are some people who just don't understand that and never will," said Harvey Silverglate, an ACLU board member.

Silverglate noted also that NAMBLA had been having trouble finding a lawyer. He said the decision to represent NAMBLA had been made by an overwhelming vote of the local ACLU board.

One of two men convicted in the murder, Charles Jaynes, 25, allegedly viewed the group's Web site shortly before the murder, and also had NAMBLA publications. Also convicted of murder was 24-year-old Salvatore Sicari.

A call to NAMBLA in New York was not immediately returned. A message on the answering machine describes it as an organization that "speaks out against societal oppression and celebrates the joys of men and boys in love."

ACLU officials said that NAMBLA argues for changes in society's views about consensual sex between adults and minors and a lowering of the age of consent. Silverglate said NAMBLA does not advocate illegal acts, and even if it did, that, too, would be protected by the First Amendment.

It is ilegal in Massachusetts to have sex with a child under 16.

Lawrence Frisoli, an attorney for the Curleys, said NAMBLA has stepped over the line from advocacy into actually participating in crimes.

"The commission of crimes is not constitutionally protected by the First Amendment. They participate. That's the allegation of the lawsuit, that the organization is participating in the rape of children," he said.

Frisoli claimed that NAMBLA assists its members in raping children by educating them on how to locate victims, how to gain their trust and how to avoid law enforcement so they won't get caught.

At separate trials last year, prosecutors said Jaynes and Sicari were sexually obsessed with the boy, and lured him from his Cambridge neighborhood with the promise of a new bike, then smothered him with a gasoline-soaked rag when he resisted their sexual advances. Jaynes allegedly molested the boy's lifeless body.

They then stuffed him into a concrete-filled container and dumped it into a Maine river.

Sicari is serving a life sentence without parole. Jaynes can seek parole in 23 years.

The Curley family last week won a $328 million verdict in a lawsuit against Jaynes and Sicari.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20000831/aponline171914_000.htm

headhuntersix

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2009, 01:36:07 PM »
ACLU sued under freedom of info act.

a federal judge said they did have the right.

A Federal judge said....yeah great...a Federal judge has no idea what it takes to protect this country. A damm judge over turned a referendum on gay marriage in California.....judges fuck up on a daily basis. The ACLU is worthless.
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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2009, 01:57:38 PM »
Of course he's going to release the photos.  He's still running for office.  This guy is a disaster so far. 

And let's not forget the ACLU defended NAMBLA:

ACLU To Represent NAMBLA
By Martin Finucane
Associated Press Writer
Thursday, Aug. 31, 2000; 5:19 p.m. EDT

BOSTON –– Saying important First Amendment issues are at stake, the American Civil Liberties Union is stepping in to defend a group that advocates sex between men and boys against a lawsuit brought by the family of a murdered 10-year-old.

The family of Jeffrey Curley of Cambridge claims in its lawsuit that the North American Man/Boy Love Association and its Web site incited the molestation and murder of the boy in 1997.

The Massachusetts chapter of the ACLU said Thursday it will defend NAMBLA because the group's activities are protected under First Amendment guarantees of freedom of speech and freedom of association.

"Under the First Amendment, there are no illegal ideas. Those who commit illegal acts can be punished for wrongful conduct, but the expression of even offensive ideas is protected by our Constitution," the ACLU said in a statement.

The ACLU has long accepted unpopular clients and despised causes, including Ku Klux Klansmen and neo-Nazis. In 1977, the ACLU defended the right of Nazis to march in Skokie, Ill. – home to many Holocaust survivors. Thousands of ACLU members quit and contributions plunged.

"The Constitution is for everybody. But there are some people who just don't understand that and never will," said Harvey Silverglate, an ACLU board member.

Silverglate noted also that NAMBLA had been having trouble finding a lawyer. He said the decision to represent NAMBLA had been made by an overwhelming vote of the local ACLU board.

One of two men convicted in the murder, Charles Jaynes, 25, allegedly viewed the group's Web site shortly before the murder, and also had NAMBLA publications. Also convicted of murder was 24-year-old Salvatore Sicari.

A call to NAMBLA in New York was not immediately returned. A message on the answering machine describes it as an organization that "speaks out against societal oppression and celebrates the joys of men and boys in love."

ACLU officials said that NAMBLA argues for changes in society's views about consensual sex between adults and minors and a lowering of the age of consent. Silverglate said NAMBLA does not advocate illegal acts, and even if it did, that, too, would be protected by the First Amendment.

It is ilegal in Massachusetts to have sex with a child under 16.

Lawrence Frisoli, an attorney for the Curleys, said NAMBLA has stepped over the line from advocacy into actually participating in crimes.

"The commission of crimes is not constitutionally protected by the First Amendment. They participate. That's the allegation of the lawsuit, that the organization is participating in the rape of children," he said.

Frisoli claimed that NAMBLA assists its members in raping children by educating them on how to locate victims, how to gain their trust and how to avoid law enforcement so they won't get caught.

At separate trials last year, prosecutors said Jaynes and Sicari were sexually obsessed with the boy, and lured him from his Cambridge neighborhood with the promise of a new bike, then smothered him with a gasoline-soaked rag when he resisted their sexual advances. Jaynes allegedly molested the boy's lifeless body.

They then stuffed him into a concrete-filled container and dumped it into a Maine river.

Sicari is serving a life sentence without parole. Jaynes can seek parole in 23 years.

The Curley family last week won a $328 million verdict in a lawsuit against Jaynes and Sicari.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20000831/aponline171914_000.htm
???
Do you not agree with this statement?:"Under the First Amendment, there are no illegal ideas. Those who commit illegal acts can be punished for wrongful conduct, but the expression of even offensive ideas is protected by our Constitution," the ACLU said in a statement

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2009, 02:03:15 PM »
???
Do you not agree with this statement?:"Under the First Amendment, there are no illegal ideas. Those who commit illegal acts can be punished for wrongful conduct, but the expression of even offensive ideas is protected by our Constitution," the ACLU said in a statement


No, I don't.  There are illegal ideas (e.g., conspiracy).  You can be punished for "offensive ideas," including threatening the president's life, yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater, and being insubordinate to your boss in the military. 

The problem with the ACLU is they don't know where to draw the line.  No one should be doing anything to help NAMBLA that advocates the rape of little boys.  It's a criminal organization. 

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2009, 03:47:51 PM »
No, I don't.  There are illegal ideas (e.g., conspiracy).  You can be punished for "offensive ideas," including threatening the president's life, yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater, and being insubordinate to your boss in the military. 

The problem with the ACLU is they don't know where to draw the line.  No one should be doing anything to help NAMBLA that advocates the rape of little boys.  It's a criminal organization. 



The "Fire in a crowded theater" is bullshit.

Mr. Hitchens will explain why for you in this video.


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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2009, 03:58:56 PM »

The "Fire in a crowded theater" is bullshit.

Mr. Hitchens will explain why for you in this video.



O.K.  You got me once.  I listened to all 2:19 of the clip.  I won't be wasting my time watching clips anymore.  He doesn't know what the heck he's talking about. 

In any event, you can believe there are no "illegal ideas" and that all speech is protected speech if you want, but that's simply not how it works in this country.  Why don't you try yelling "fire!" next time you're at the theater and see what happens?  Or write a letter to the editor about assassinating Obama and see how fast you get a visit from the feds?  Go tell your boss to go screw himself and see how quickly you’re be unemployed. 

Also, do you have a problem with the ACLU defending NAMBLA?     

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2009, 04:01:16 PM »
O.K.  You got me once.  I listened to all 2:19 of the clip.  I won't be wasting my time watching clips anymore.  He doesn't know what the heck he's talking about. 

In any event, you can believe there are no "illegal ideas" and that all speech is protected speech if you want, but that's simply not how it works in this country.  Why don't you try telling "fire!" next time you're at the theater and see what happens?  Or write a letter to the editor about assassinating Obama and see how fast you get a visit from the feds?  Go tell your boss to go screw himself and see how quickly you’re be unemployed. 

Also, do you have a problem with the ACLU defending NAMBLA?     

Here this may be better for you.
The Schenck case

Holmes, writing for a unanimous majority, ruled that it was illegal to distribute flyers opposing the draft during World War I. Holmes argued this abridgment of free speech was permissible because it presented a "clear and present danger" to the government's recruitment efforts for the war. Holmes wrote:
The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic. [...] The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent.
Holmes wrote of falsely shouting fire, because, of course, if there were a fire in a crowded theater, one may rightly indeed shout "Fire!"; one may, depending on the law in operation, even be obliged to. Falsely shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater, i.e. shouting "Fire!" when one believes there to be no fire in order to cause panic, was interpreted not to be protected by the First Amendment.

The First Amendment holding in Schenck was later overturned by Brandenburg v. Ohio, which limited the scope of banned speech to that which would be directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot). The test in Brandenburg is the current High Court jurisprudence on the ability of government to proscribe speech after that fact. Despite Schenck being limited, the phrase "shouting fire in a crowded theater" has since come to be known as synonymous with an action that the speaker believes goes beyond the rights guaranteed by free speech, reckless or malicious speech, or an action whose outcomes are blatantly obvious.

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2009, 04:06:07 PM »
O.K.  You got me once.  I listened to all 2:19 of the clip.  I won't be wasting my time watching clips anymore.  He doesn't know what the heck he's talking about. 

In any event, you can believe there are no "illegal ideas" and that all speech is protected speech if you want, but that's simply not how it works in this country.  Why don't you try telling "fire!" next time you're at the theater and see what happens?  Or write a letter to the editor about assassinating Obama and see how fast you get a visit from the feds?  Go tell your boss to go screw himself and see how quickly you’re be unemployed. 

Also, do you have a problem with the ACLU defending NAMBLA?     

There are no punishable ideas. I do not have any problem of the ACLU defending NAMBLA or the Nazi`s March in Skokie.

You can tell your boss anything you want and you may or may not get fired.  For instance, when my Grandfather owned Universal Furniture and if my dad were to say go screw yourself, nothing would have happened.

Hereford

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2009, 04:07:35 PM »
Regardless...the ACLU has no fucking right to post pics....just like u have no right to know what the SEALS,TF 16/TF 19, TFO..CAG and a million other units do to defend this country. The ACLU doesn't think of 2nd order effects and further has no legal authority to ask for pics pertaining to a foreign national, yet the libs caved and here we are. I redeploy to Iraq at the end of Nov. If the ACLU actions cost the lives of any of my soldiers because of massive increases in violence, I'll come back and skin the fuckers. The ACLU does nothing to protect this country or anybodies civil rights. They protect minority views against the overwhelming majority on any given issue and force bullshit down our throats.

The ACLU is where uber lib lawyers go to make a name for themselves.

They are an organization that desperatly tries to get that sensationalist headline.

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2009, 04:12:11 PM »
Here this may be better for you.
The Schenck case

Holmes, writing for a unanimous majority, ruled that it was illegal to distribute flyers opposing the draft during World War I. Holmes argued this abridgment of free speech was permissible because it presented a "clear and present danger" to the government's recruitment efforts for the war. Holmes wrote:
The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic. [...] The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent.
Holmes wrote of falsely shouting fire, because, of course, if there were a fire in a crowded theater, one may rightly indeed shout "Fire!"; one may, depending on the law in operation, even be obliged to. Falsely shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater, i.e. shouting "Fire!" when one believes there to be no fire in order to cause panic, was interpreted not to be protected by the First Amendment.

The First Amendment holding in Schenck was later overturned by Brandenburg v. Ohio, which limited the scope of banned speech to that which would be directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot). The test in Brandenburg is the current High Court jurisprudence on the ability of government to proscribe speech after that fact. Despite Schenck being limited, the phrase "shouting fire in a crowded theater" has since come to be known as synonymous with an action that the speaker believes goes beyond the rights guaranteed by free speech, reckless or malicious speech, or an action whose outcomes are blatantly obvious.


O.K.  And?  What is your analysis?


The True Adonis

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2009, 04:14:35 PM »
O.K.  You got me once.  I listened to all 2:19 of the clip.  I won't be wasting my time watching clips anymore.  He doesn't know what the heck he's talking about. 

In any event, you can believe there are no "illegal ideas" and that all speech is protected speech if you want, but that's simply not how it works in this country.  Why don't you try telling "fire!" next time you're at the theater and see what happens?  Or write a letter to the editor about assassinating Obama and see how fast you get a visit from the feds?  Go tell your boss to go screw himself and see how quickly you’re be unemployed. 

Also, do you have a problem with the ACLU defending NAMBLA?     

You see, the "fire" has NEVER referred to an actual fire and served only as a metaphor which Holmes used frequently.  This is mythmaking at its finest given the context of what Holmes was ruling on.  Today, we laugh at his ruling against people protesting a war.

Here is another thing that may help.  
http://www.law.uoregon.edu/news/article/75
OL: Your paper has a fascinating title: Fire, Metaphor and Constitutional Myth-Making. What is the connection between fire and the Constitution?

RT: In my paper, I call the symbolic processes of law constitutional myth-making. By that I mean the social process that generates potent legal myths, metaphors, mantras and story lines.        

Legal doctrines, categories and rules make up the formal features of lawmaking - but I argue that the symbolic processes play an instrumental role in the creation of law as well.   The symbolic forms of law can either reinforce or unsettle existing legal doctrine.      

To illustrate my thesis, I trace fire-based language in the First Amendment area over time.  At the turn of the twentieth century, when the First Amendment was more aspiration than reality, fire-inspired metaphors facilitated government suppression of speech; take the familiar example of Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes and a man falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater."

American institutions had no use for more poetic pro-speech sayings such as "eloquence may set fire to reason" - also by Holmes.

But in the post-war era, the anti-totalitarianism agenda and extended period of economic prosperity facilitated the reconfiguration of the myth of fire.  Increasingly, we see fire and speech woven together to promote expanded First Amendment liberties.  

Whereas in the early era, speech is metaphorically described as "sparks" threatening a wider conflagration, in our own time speech regulation is more likely to be characterized as a "torch" endangering our constitutional order. The part of the mythical firefighter, once played by the government, is today more often played by the Court.


Dos Equis

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2009, 04:15:37 PM »
There are no punishable ideas. I do not have any problem of the ACLU defending NAMBLA or the Nazi`s March in Skokie.

You can tell your boss anything you want and you may or may not get fired.  For instance, when my Grandfather owned Universal Furniture and if my dad were to say go screw yourself, nothing would have happened.

I just gave you examples of punishable ideas.  Are you saying you have the right to say that you want to kill the president?

You cannot tell your boss anything you want.  If your boss gives you an assignment and you tell him or her to go screw themselves, you will be out of a job.  

And just fyi, name dropping, etc. does not impress me.    

Dos Equis

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2009, 04:17:35 PM »
You see, the "fire" has NEVER referred to an actual fire and served only as a metaphor which Holmes used frequently.  This is mythmaking at its finest given the context of what Holmes was ruling on.  Today, we laugh at his ruling against people protesting a war.

Here is another thing that may help.  
http://www.law.uoregon.edu/news/article/75
OL: Your paper has a fascinating title: Fire, Metaphor and Constitutional Myth-Making. What is the connection between fire and the Constitution?

RT: In my paper, I call the symbolic processes of law constitutional myth-making. By that I mean the social process that generates potent legal myths, metaphors, mantras and story lines.        

Legal doctrines, categories and rules make up the formal features of lawmaking - but I argue that the symbolic processes play an instrumental role in the creation of law as well.   The symbolic forms of law can either reinforce or unsettle existing legal doctrine.      

To illustrate my thesis, I trace fire-based language in the First Amendment area over time.  At the turn of the twentieth century, when the First Amendment was more aspiration than reality, fire-inspired metaphors facilitated government suppression of speech; take the familiar example of Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes and a man falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater."

American institutions had no use for more poetic pro-speech sayings such as "eloquence may set fire to reason" - also by Holmes.

But in the post-war era, the anti-totalitarianism agenda and extended period of economic prosperity facilitated the reconfiguration of the myth of fire.  Increasingly, we see fire and speech woven together to promote expanded First Amendment liberties.  

Whereas in the early era, speech is metaphorically described as "sparks" threatening a wider conflagration, in our own time speech regulation is more likely to be characterized as a "torch" endangering our constitutional order. The part of the mythical firefighter, once played by the government, is today more often played by the Court.



You're missing the point, which is that not all speech is protected by the First Amendment.  Since you're getting your information from Google, try inserting the phrase "fighting words" and see what you find.   :)

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2009, 04:21:57 PM »
Get your facts straight... Obama didn't "release these"... There has been a ongoing legal battle over this, and he had no choice... Its been in court since the Dip Shit Administration..

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2009, 04:25:09 PM »
I just gave you examples of punishable ideas.  Are you saying you have the right to say that you want to kill the president?

You cannot tell your boss anything you want.  If your boss gives you an assignment and you tell him or her to go screw themselves, you will be out of a job.  

And just fyi, name dropping, etc. does not impress me.    

You can say you want to kill him.  Many in fact did openly at the Palin rallies.  "BOMB OBAMA".  Do you want me to post the video of that?

Again, if my dad would have said, "Go Screw Yourself" to my grandfather who owned the company, nothing would have happened.

What you are not understanding is that Holmes, when he made the statement about fire, he was not talking about an actual Fire.  He was using it as justification for sending Yiddish Socialists to jail for life because they were distributing Anti-War literature during World War I.  Holmes, in his brain, somehow concocted that was hurting the countries recruitment efforts which led to "a clear and present danger" to the United States.  He made the analogy of the Socialists, falsely shouting fire (via the anti-war pamphlets) because Holmes did not see World War I as a theme to start a "panic" by allowing the dissemenation of Anti-War literature.(falsely shouting fire in a crowded theatre)  

This part of Holmes` "fire" ruling was overturned as I noted above.

The True Adonis

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Re: Oh Good, Obama Agrees To Release CIA Photos Of Detainee Treatment
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2009, 04:26:14 PM »
You can say you want to kill him.  Many in fact did openly at the Palin rallies.  "BOMB OBAMA".  Do you want me to post the video of that?

Again, if my dad would have said, "Go Screw Yourself" to my grandfather who owned the company, nothing would have happened.

What you are not understanding is that Holmes, when he made the statement about fire, he was not talking about an actual Fire.  He was using it as justification for sending Yiddish Socialists to jail for life because they were distributing Anti-War literature during World War I.  Holmes, in his brain, somehow concocted that was hurting the countries recruitment efforts which led to "a clear and present danger" to the United States.  He made the analogy of the Socialists, falsely shouting fire (via the anti-war pamphlets) because Holmes did not see World War I as a theme to start a "panic" by allowing the dissemenation of Anti-War literature.(falsely shouting fire in a crowded theatre) 

This part of Holmes` "fire" ruling was overturned as I noted above.

Today we are abhorred by Holmes` ruling and sending ones who are opposed to war to jail for life.