Author Topic: If the Dow was down for 7 straight weeks since the stim bill passed...  (Read 1004 times)

240 is Back

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 102396
  • Complete website for only $300- www.300website.com
Would it at all be related to the fact that Obama printed trillions of dollars for his stimus package?

Or would the two be completely unrelated events?  Would a massive govt spending program designed to affect the economy have ZERO effect on the DOW?

big L dawg

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5729
  • i always tell the truth even when i lie...
anything positive that happens under Obama's watch is just an anomaly.dumb luck if you will.anything negative that happens is a direct result of Obama and his policies.
DAWG

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
anything positive that happens under Obama's watch is just an anomaly.dumb luck if you will.anything negative that happens is a direct result of Obama and his policies.
As opposed to 240's everything good is obamas doing and everything bad is just aftershocks of bush?  :o ::) LOL the market was going to come back and it will dip again what will you say then, "ohhhh it was gonna do that anyway it had nothing to do with obama" or how about the countless middle class generations to come that have their taxes raised to pay for his spending etc...that has nothing to do with obama either i guess?

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
That point it completely ignored by 240 and the rest of th bots. What about the debt. Oh and we haven't even hit the looming healthcare disaster.
L

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
That point it completely ignored by 240 and the rest of th bots. What about the debt. Oh and we haven't even hit the looming healthcare disaster.
they dont care about the children of the middle class now or the their children or their childrens children only about being able to say hey he cut middle class taxes even though he is enslaving the middle class for decades if not centuries to come.

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
That point it completely ignored by 240 and the rest of th bots. What about the debt. Oh and we haven't even hit the looming healthcare disaster.

The debt. Do you know how much we waste on the military and overseas operations? That could all be saved or spent at home.
I hate the State.

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Not only the debt we have to pay..what about all the stuff uncle sam won't be able to buy because of this debt. What is war and warefare going to stop because of Barry and the Dems. We have been killing each other for 2000 plus years, its the only thing man does really really well. We'll be fighting this current war in some form or another, for generations. Plus u have a resurgent Russia (thanks Barry) and China. Iran and nKorea will have to be delt with in some form. Israel and the Palistinians are still going strong. Bottom line, we're gonna need stuff.

Hey Decide..the US military is the only thing keeping the West afloat, Period.
L

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Besides all the money the douchebag libs are saving on defense...it ain't going to pay down the debt. Its going to more worthless programs.


There certainly are things in the defense budget that should be reconsidered. Such is the nature of bureaucracies — all of them, not just Defense. The plan to purchase a new presidential helicopter fleet is among the items yanked off the defense table. But so are various parts of missile defense and, expectedly, the new F-22 fighter program. There has been a healthy debate about the need for this, and about how Defense can perhaps better allocate such funds to address the enemy we are currently engaged with.

As far as the White House is concerned, though, the debate is over. The F-22 is gone, and the resources are not going to be redirected back to Defense in order to do things like speed up the replacement of the M-16 “Sand-Jammer” rifle or invest in increased military language immersion training for Arabic, Pashto, Urdu, and Farsi. Oh, no. It’s back to Congress with those funds, so that the Pell Grant program can be transformed into “an entitlement akin to Social Security and Medicare.” Delaware’s boardwalks need another $7.5 million in federal grants, but defense? Pfffft. Get with the program, Marine.

The Washington Times tells you just about all you need to know about the instincts of this administration, which has ballooned just about every other type of federal spending and then invented a few.

The administration identified $11.5 billion in discretionary program terminations and reductions for next year. The Defense Department will take a $9.4 billion hit, constituting 82 percent of the cuts. Defense accounts for 49 percent of spending on discretionary programs, which Congress must fund each year.

The White House identified a total of $17 billion in spending cuts, including cuts in mandatory programs that mostly involve entitlements.

While we are conducting two hot wars — pardon, “overseas contingency operations” — and trying to find ways to defend against both asymmetrical warfare and the traditional conventional military threats that have not disappeared just because al-Qaeda attacked us, the only place Obama can find any waste is in Defense.

 

"We can no longer afford to spend as if deficits do not matter and waste is not our problem," Mr. Obama said.

To borrow a phrase from our current Secretary of State, then a senator, as she incredulously ridiculed then-MNF-I Commander Gen. David Petraeus: That “requires the suspension of disbelief” to take at face value. Obama is not cutting the deficit; he is cutting Defense and redistributing it back into a budget of social programs for the same net expenditure.

To understand this, look no further than Brian Riedl at The Corner:

Virtually every dollar “saved” would automatically go towards new spending instead of deficit reduction.

Here’s why: The president already proposed a specific discretionary spending level (which included these proposals), and Congress has already approved a budget that would spend $1,086 billion on regular discretionary spending in FY 2010. The discretionary savings proposals affect only the composition of such spending. Thus, even if the entire $12.5 billion in discretionary spending cuts are enacted, the savings would automatically be plowed into other programs to maintain discretionary spending at that pre-set $1,086 billion level. So this exercise is about reorganizing — not reducing — government.

Veterans are quite skilled at spotting dog-and-pony shows. We’ve been around the block a few times.

L

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Not only the debt we have to pay..what about all the stuff uncle sam won't be able to buy because of this debt. What is war and warefare going to stop because of Barry and the Dems. We have been killing each other for 2000 plus years, its the only thing man does really really well. We'll be fighting this current war in some form or another, for generations. Plus u have a resurgent Russia (thanks Barry) and China. Iran and nKorea will have to be delt with in some form. Israel and the Palistinians are still going strong. Bottom line, we're gonna need stuff.

Hey Decide..the US military is the only thing keeping the West afloat, Period.

Some would argue that but I vehemently disagree.
I hate the State.

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
That being that if we left everybody would just get along or its not our problem?
L

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
That being that if we left everybody would just get along or its not our problem?

Not only is so much of it not our problem, it creates further problems. Dismantle the empire, concentrate on the domestic state and rebuild. People have never gotten along, who cares? We don't help them to get along, we make it worse sometimes. Ultimately it is a philosophical question: is it the job of the US to police the entire world and maintain an empire of bases? I don't think that is in the interest of the American people but rather of the various complexes that run the real show. Haliburton and Lockheed's interest is not the same as the interest of the common American. Eventually it will have to end because that has always been the fate of empire; they all all go broke.
I hate the State.

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
And when we do..the world will come apart. Who else can police the world..who...China..yeah right. We do what we do because it ensures this massive economy can continue to roll. The friggen Euro's couldn't do a thing in Bosnia until we rolled in....Saddam would be in Saudi controlling all the oil...until Israel nuked him. Sticking ur head in the sand will not make the jihadists go away.
L

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
And when we do..the world will come apart. Who else can police the world..who...China..yeah right. We do what we do because it ensures this massive economy can continue to roll. The friggen Euro's couldn't do a thing in Bosnia until we rolled in....Saddam would be in Saudi controlling all the oil...until Israel nuked him. Sticking ur head in the sand will not make the jihadists go away.

You presuppose that the world needs a police man/state. It's an unnecessary assumption. The world doesn't need a police state, never has. Bosnia was an issue for Bosnia, not Europe or the US (and never mind the amount of lies involved in that mess). Market forces prevail over these worries such as Saddam would be controlling the oil. Unlikely and based purely on speculation. We create more jihadist by bombing civilians in Pakistan and Afghanistan and add fuel to the fire. What are we still doing there? It is a lost cause and since you don't believe me take it from someone who has much more credility than I do (if you want to skip everything, just read the last lines):

Quote
Obama’s Afghan-Ignorant Policy Guide

by Michael Scheuer, May 06, 2009
Email This | Print This | Share This | Comment
With much ballyhooing, Bruce Riedel led a team that conducted the Obama administration’s "review" of Afghan policy. As is known, the team’s deliberations produced a wonder of either naiveté or stupidity, or perhaps both: 21,000 more U.S. troops to control a country the size of Texas, and a logistical system running vital U.S.-NATO resupply lines through hostile territory in Pakistan and – with Russia’s gleeful support for keeping America bleeding in Afghanistan – the Commonwealth of Independent States. The question must be asked how a man as intelligent as Riedel came up with a plan that amounts to massively reinforcing failure.

The answer lies, I fear, in Riedel’s eagerness to please Obama with a new plan and a deep faith in the rightness of U.S. interventionism. Trying to please the president is a trait so common in some former senior CIA officials jockeying for political sinecures that it hardly comes as a surprise; Riedel very effectively managed analysis on several Middle East issues during his Agency career.

What does surprise me, however, is Riedel’s clear ignorance of his Obama-assigned task, Afghanistan. Writing on the Brookings Institution Web site on April 30, 2009, Riedel bemoans the fact that America has not intervened more fully and aggressively in Afghanistan. In an article titled "Afghanistan: What Is at Stake?" Riedel writes,

"Twice in the last quarter century the United States has squandered great victories achieved in Afghanistan by failing to follow up battlefield success with an enduring and resourced commitment to helping to build a stable government in Afghanistan."

One wonders what Riedel is talking about. The United States has never won a war in Afghanistan. The war against the Red Army and the Afghan communists (1979-1992) was won by the Afghans – period. U.S. arms supplies helped them kill Russians more quickly and effectively, but they, not we, won the war. In the war that commenced in October 2001, we won one battle – that for control of the Afghan cities – but since late March 2002, we have been losing every step of the way. To his credit, Riedel says we are losing the current war. He also says "it is not yet lost." He is wrong; we have lost.

Another, more important point on which Riedel is dead wrong is in his repetition of the exceedingly durable but completely incorrect urban legend that Washington and the West abandoned Afghanistan after the Red Army withdrew. In the late 1980s, Riedel claims,

"U.S.-supported Afghan mujahedin defeated the Soviet 40th Red Army [sic]. … The mujahedin were badly divided, however, and quickly fell into civil war. The United States could have led an international effort to restore order and rallied key players like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia to try to end the conflict. Instead, Afghanistan got virtually no attention from the White House or the Congress."

Riedel’s ignorance of what happened after the Red Army’s withdrawal is almost breathtaking, but such a misrepresentation of reality is politically requisite if anyone is to believe the new-but-doomed Afghan policy approved by Obama has a chance to succeed. One might have hoped that Riedel – who worked on Iraq in the years he is writing about – would have consulted one or more of his Afghan-experienced former colleagues for some factual background before taking up his pen. But then again, the facts would get in the way of justifying more U.S. intervention in Afghanistan.

Riedel argues that a viable post-Soviet Afghan government failed because the "mujahedin were badly divided," Western governments lost interest, and Washington did not seek Saudi and Pakistani involvement. This is palpable nonsense. The mujahedin were, are, and always will be "badly divided," but they still beat the Soviet superpower – as they are on the verge of beating the American superpower – and there is no doubt they eventually would have worked out governing arrangements compatible with Afghan history and society. The West tends to forget that the Afghans have been running their country for 2,000 years and have a bit more experience than we do in managing their tribal and ethnically diverse society.

From the perspective of Washington and its allies, the real post-Soviet trouble was that whatever regime the mujahedin built would not be the one we wanted; namely, one that included none of the Afghans who actually fought and bled to drive out the Soviets. Sadly, therefore, the U.S. government, many of its European allies (especially the UK, France, and Germany), and various UN organizations intervened fully and dictatorially in post-Soviet Afghan politics, thereby preventing any sort of genuine Afghan attempt at self-determination. And as they are today, the Saudis and Pakistanis were also fully involved in telling the Afghans what to do, and, just as today, their recommendations ran exactly counter to U.S. interests.

Notwithstanding Riedel’s assertions, in the late 1980s and early 1990s U.S., Western, and UN diplomats consistently tried to dictate to the Afghans what kind of government they should have. That troika wanted to staff the new secular and centralized Kabul regime with Afghan technocrats; secular Afghans who, like Hamid Karzai, spent the war safely in India, America, or Europe; "Gucci" mujahedin who were nominally Islamic, received wartime aid, but did no fighting; and even former members of the Afghan communist regime. In other words, all were welcome to join the new Western-mandated Afghan government except those who wore beards, carried AK-47s, were devoted Islamists, and fought to expel the Soviets.

In the immediate post-Soviet years, then, Washington spent tens of millions of dollars to try to form exactly the same type of strong and centralized Afghan government – the type of regime that historically causes war in Afghanistan – it is trying to form today. And in a lethally ironic case of déjà vu, the father of current Afghan President Karzai – a far more honorable and competent man than his son – was one of the West’s favorites, and he was guided by Zalmay Khalilzad, the same U.S. diplomat who has brought us the recent disasters in Kabul and Baghdad. In addition, the talented U.S. ambassadors Robert and Phyllis Oakley and Peter Tomsen led numbers of U.S. and UK bureaucrats, contractors, and NGOs into the country to teach Afghans the West’s democratic ways, as well as how to organize and administer national budgets, establish the rule of law, and create a strong central regime. This wildly misplaced intervention went so far as to bring in teams of American lawyers and judges to teach the Afghans a Westernized judicial system to replace what we knew was all that silly old Islamic and tribal stuff.

In the end, the U.S.-led, late-1980s democracy-building intervention in Afghanistan was all for naught, just as Obama’s new Afghan policy will be. The Afghans wanted no part of the secularism the U.S.-led West insisted on then, and they want none of what the U.S.-led coalition has on offer now. While the Afghans will accept medical aid for their kids, electrical generators, and tools for increasing potable water supplies, they will utterly reject and fight measures aimed at eliminating the traditional role of tribalism and Islam in their society in the name of secular democracy. Afghans, like all Muslims, make a clear distinction between the terms modernization and Westernization; they are eager for the former but will fight the latter to the death. For our future relations with the Islamic world, it is a fatal liability that we are so cocksure the two terms are synonyms.

One final point. Riedel is a senior fellow at the aggressively pro-Israel Brookings Institution. Is it just a coincidence that his very misleading article about the "need" for more and longer U.S. intervention in Afghanistan appears just a week after Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman identified Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iraq as the three main threats to Israel? I think not, and that is why America will either be defeated or still fighting, bleeding, and losing in Afghanistan and Iraq by Inauguration Day 2013.

I hate the State.

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
I don't want to fix Afghanistan...I want to continue to bomb the absolute dogshit out of the idiost causing us trouble. Afghanistan can't be fixed. The people don't want to fix it, and nothing Barry can do will change that. And as far as this guy goes...this article is a bit late. Expert military people having been saying this for several years. People who have walked the ground.....

Kill until there is nothing left to kill..or leave. This is not Iraq, there is nothing to rebuild.
L

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
I don't want to fix Afghanistan...I want to continue to bomb the absolute dogshit out of the idiost causing us trouble. Afghanistan can't be fixed. The people don't want to fix it, and nothing Barry can do will change that. And as far as this guy goes...this article is a bit late. Expert military people having been saying this for several years. People who have walked the ground.....

Kill until there is nothing left to kill..or leave. This is not Iraq, there is nothing to rebuild.

Which is why we should leabe Afghanistan. We should also leave Iraq. Total waste of time and resources.
I hate the State.

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Iraq is almost done...and we need it to be stable. Afghanistan is different, they are not a regional player such as Pakistan. Afghanistan is not a "hedge" country. That is,  a country much like Iraq, that serves as a hedge against Iranian expansion. We can sit at Bagram and Kandahar and bomb the dogshit out of the Taliban and AQ and be done with it. If the UN feels it wants to help, by all means. They can roll out their own worthless troops and crusade across Afganistan.
L

MM2K

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1401
Quote
Do you know how much we waste on the military and overseas operations? That could all be saved or spent at home

We spend less on defense than we do on healthcare. The only thing the Constitution explicitly commands the federal government to spend money on is national defense. It does not command it to spend money on healthcare (though I dont think it necessarily forbids it either). We are spending less on national defense than we did during the Reagan buildup of the 80s and at lot less than we spent on Vietnam. National Security is the number one priority investment. We lost 1 million jobs in one fail swoop on 9/11. And the airline industry will never be the same. It seems absurd and sensual to suggest that the Iraq was not worth the treasure we spent. You can argue it wasnt worth the blood, but it was defifnately worth the treasure.

And not merely in spite of but BECAUSE of all that we spend on healthcare, healthcare costs have skyrocketed over the past 4 decades or so. Healtcare spending seems far more wasteful to me.
Jan. Jobs: 36,000!!

MM2K

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1401
Quote
Would it at all be related to the fact that Obama printed trillions of dollars for his stimus package?

The printing of money by the Fed will help but it will do so at  the cost of creating massive inflation 18 months down the road.  The "stimulus " package did very little for behavioral incentives in buying houses to create a bottom in this housing bust, in buying cars, or in creating incentives in investing and spending. Many Republicans would have been very willing to support a truly stimulative Keynesian style plan in the name of bipartisanship, even though they generally tend to favor Friedman style supply side tax cutting.  But this PORKULUS bill was something that Keynes would have puked over. It was nothing but a bunch of payments to the Democrats' interest groups.
Jan. Jobs: 36,000!!

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
The printing of money by the Fed will help but it will do so at  the cost of creating massive inflation 18 months down the road.  The "stimulus " package did very little for behavioral incentives in buying houses to create a bottom in this housing bust, in buying cars, or in creating incentives in investing and spending. Many Republicans would have been very willing to support a truly stimulative Keynesian style plan in the name of bipartisanship, even though they generally tend to favor Friedman style supply side tax cutting.  But this PORKULUS bill was something that Keynes would have puked over. It was nothing but a bunch of payments to the Democrats' interest groups.

Clearly the Jews' fault...
I hate the State.