How bad can waterboarding really be?

[headhuntersix]

I'd argue that in order to preserve that democracy, things get very blurry. U guys who have an issue with waterboarding would go insane with what JSOC does on a daily basis to protect this country. Apparently Obama doesn't care, he justed apointed their old boss as head of the war in Afghanistan.

Tim..I took the first google article I came to...whatever. If they're right leaning..great u got me. For the record, i would have used a more crediable source had I known who they were.

[drkaje]

Come on. Cut the fearmongering bullshit, Cheney. Torturing terrorists captured in a foreign country and American citizens are two entirely different things.

Are they?

[headhuntersix]

Yes, unless u really care about people who hate u.

[Fury]

Are they?

Do terrorists have US citizenship? You sound like that Cheney guy you hate so much. Funny how that works.

[drkaje]

Yes, unless u really care about people who hate u.

Caring, or not, is irrelevant.

[headhuntersix]

No its relevant. More to the point, this crap didn't just start under Bush or on 9/12. The net, 24 news and the information age have made it all seem like we went from this wonderful democracy to shaddy characters. We've always done whats in our best interest. Hell we used to assasinate people we didn't like, and knock over governments.

[Deicide]

Hi Dracula. Remember when you tried to "own" me by posting this shiteous picture the other day? You just can't stay away. It must really suck being so scarred on a forum that you have to keep following me around.

The best part of that pic? You were on nearly 1g/week of Sust and copious amounts of other gear. Congratulations on your shit genetics and h-frame.  

I deleted that post. Feel free to quote this one.

You are a god.

He has horrible genetics.

[tu_holmes]

I got into this discussion at lunch with some dudes at work... and it made me think on a couple of other points.

Who are we capturing? Where did they come from?

Are we water-boarding people we picked up in Iraq who were not terrorists but defending their homeland?

Take for instance the idea that we're going to water-board those guys that were just caught in New York... Trying to find out if there's more of them or whatever... Ok... let's say I get that.

We're trying to stop an imminent threat against the United States of America.

Is there an imminent threat from these people we've picked up in Iraq? I can't imagine seeing as how we invaded their country, they didn't invade ours.

Maybe that's something I need to understand better... Where did these detainees we're water-boarding come from?

[Fury]

You are a god.

He has horrible genetics.

I daresay that yours might even be better.

[Deicide]

I daresay that yours might even be better.

Yes, mine are obviously better but that is not saying much.

[Fury]

Yes, mine are obviously better but that is not saying much.

If you dieted down you would look pretty good. Just stick with it. Have some fucking confidence in your physique.

[ToxicAvenger]

Hi Dracula. Remember when you tried to "own" me by posting this shiteous picture the other day? You just can't stay away. It must really suck being so scarred on a forum that you have to keep following me around.

The best part of that pic? You were on nearly 1g/week of Sust and copious amounts of other gear. Congratulations on your shit genetics and h-frame.  

you sure hit one out of the ball park dere champ!


remember Dracula got a lot of women! hawhaw just ate hay! 

remember to show your mum my pic...i'm sure she remembers my voice 

[tonymctones]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html

again it wasnt simply for waterboarding, this is from your own liberal lefty source..."I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death." Im thinking they probably did a little worse then water boarding call me crazy...
 

[ToxicAvenger]

this could all be solved if they instead of waterboarding made bad people smell rossie o donnels ass 

[tonymctones]

I got into this discussion at lunch with some dudes at work... and it made me think on a couple of other points.

Who are we capturing? Where did they come from?

Are we water-boarding people we picked up in Iraq who were not terrorists but defending their homeland?

Take for instance the idea that we're going to water-board those guys that were just caught in New York... Trying to find out if there's more of them or whatever... Ok... let's say I get that.

We're trying to stop an imminent threat against the United States of America.

Is there an imminent threat from these people we've picked up in Iraq? I can't imagine seeing as how we invaded their country, they didn't invade ours.

Maybe that's something I need to understand better... Where did these detainees we're water-boarding come from?

holmes im sure hh6 could answer this better then i could but i think they come from pretty much everywhere, afghanistan, iraq etc..its not only about keeping our civilians safe holmes its also about keeping our soldiers safe so this ppl picked up in iraq might have info that could affect our soldiers...

[tu_holmes]

holmes im sure hh6 could answer this better then i could but i think they come from pretty much everywhere, afghanistan, iraq etc..its not only about keeping our civilians safe holmes its also about keeping our soldiers safe so this ppl picked up in iraq might have info that could affect our soldiers...

Yeah, but isn't the premise then that we should be over there in the first place?

Which we shouldn't.

No one has ever given me a good reason for us being in Iraq... Not one.

[tonymctones]

Yeah, but isn't the premise then that we should be over there in the first place?

Which we shouldn't.

No one has ever given me a good reason for us being in Iraq... Not one.

Maybe its just me but that doesnt have anything to do with it, if these ppl have info that could affect the lives of US civilians here at home or US soldiers there abroad then it doesnt matter the info should be obtained...im not saying that you should go straight to waterboarding which im sure they dont but if they dont respond to other lighter interrogation methods, you dont just sit on your hands...sorry if it was me id start cutting off fingers one by one until i got something useful.

Like i told RPF in another thread this idea that we are more civilized then they are and shouldnt do these things is a concept and only exists in the minds of humans, in other words its not real...life and death are real consequences and you need to be prepared to do whats necessary or be prepared to die b/c you wont do whats necessary or by extention let others die.

[tu_holmes]

Maybe its just me but that doesnt have anything to do with it, if these ppl have info that could affect the lives of US civilians here at home or US soldiers there abroad then it doesnt matter the info should be obtained...im not saying that you should go straight to waterboarding which im sure they dont but if they dont respond to other lighter interrogation methods, you dont just sit on your hands...sorry if it was me id start cutting off fingers one by one until i got something useful.

Like i told RPF in another thread this idea that we are more civilized then they are and shouldnt do these things is a concept and only exists in the minds of humans, in other words its not real...life and death are real consequences and you need to be prepared to do whats necessary or be prepared to die b/c you wont do whats necessary or by extention let others die.

So it's ok to torture people to save US soldiers' lives even if the soldiers are doing something they shouldn't be doing in the first place.

I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying.

[ToxicAvenger]

So it's ok to torture people to save US soldiers' lives even if the soldiers are doing something they shouldn't be doing in the first place.

I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying.

ONLY if you are a white christian    its NOT terrorism then...i repeat!

and remember white christians also have magical bombs that when thrown on villages..ONLY kill bad people 

[tonymctones]

So it's ok to torture people to save US soldiers' lives even if the soldiers are doing something they shouldn't be doing in the first place.

I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying.

Would you rather have had us pull out all together when we realized there where no wmd? LOL it would have been a blood bath, no matter how bad iraq got it would have been 10 times worse if the US had just pulled out. Hind sights 20/20 are you saying that b/c it was a mistake we should not do things that protect our soldiers?

fact is we are there, was it a mistake, ya ill agree, it wasnt an intentional lie like some on here would have you believe but a bad mistake ya...However we did topple a sadistic murderous dictator, have rid the world of thousands of jihadists i think youll agree thats a good thing, and tried to institute a democratic government...Its not like we have done all bad shit...

[tu_holmes]

ONLY if you are a white christian    its NOT terrorism then...i repeat!

and remember white christians also have magical bombs that when thrown on villages..ONLY kill bad people 

This is not about magical bombs.

Don't get me wrong, if we are in a War, a real war, where people are  trying to kill me for no reason, then if I go to an area where the enemy is supposed to be and there are people there, then they ARE the enemy.

In WW2, when the troops marched through France and into Germany (or Poland if they were the Soviet Military) and there were people in the area of battle, they were enemies, make no mistake about that.

However, if I'm the one intruding on another person's country, and they in turn fight me... How are they the terrorist? It's their country, not mine.

[tu_holmes]

Would you rather have had us pull out all together when we realized there where no wmd? LOL it would have been a blood bath, no matter how bad iraq got it would have been 10 times worse if the US had just pulled out. Hind sights 20/20 are you saying that b/c it was a mistake we should not do things that protect our soldiers?

fact is we are there, was it a mistake, ya ill agree, it wasnt an intentional lie like some on here would have you believe but a bad mistake ya...However we did topple a sadistic murderous dictator, have rid the world of thousands of jihadists i think youll agree thats a good thing, and tried to institute a democratic government...Its not like we have done all bad shit...

Says who? Who says it would have been a blood bath? The same people who said it would be an easy war? The same people who planned it and said it wouldn't be an issue? The same people who didn't expect the people of the country to want us to get out?

I'm supposed to believe that THOSE people know what the hell they're talking about?

Bullshit.

Obama should pull everyone out of Iraq immediately.

[tonymctones]

Says who? Who says it would have been a blood bath? The same people who said it would be an easy war? The same people who planned it and said it wouldn't be an issue? The same people who didn't expect the people of the country to want us to get out?

I'm supposed to believe that THOSE people know what the hell they're talking about?

Bullshit.

Obama should pull everyone out of Iraq immediately.

LOL WTF DO YOU THINK WOULD HAVE HAPPEND, multiple different factions fighting for control, yea your right man maybe they would have just flipped fuking coin over it  .

Iraq is a much more stable place now bro...remember back when we first went in the first few months or even years that place was the wild fuking west, you think that us leaving would have been good for that? dont be ignorant...i dont need anybody to tell me what would have happened its common fuking sense.

[tu_holmes]

LOL WTF DO YOU THINK WOULD HAVE HAPPEND, multiple different factions fighting for control, yea your right man maybe they would have just flipped fuking coin over it  .

Iraq is a much more stable place now bro...remember back when we first went in the first few months or even years that place was the wild fuking west, you think that us leaving would have been good for that? dont be ignorant...i dont need anybody to tell me what would have happened its common fuking sense.

It's not fucking common sense dude... It's what you "think" will happen... More guessing, it's all a crap shoot and you know it... You THINK it will happen, but you don't know.

Either way, who cares about the stupid fucking country... It's a bullshit reason to stay.

You don't see me running to Somalia to stabilize that place.

Let them figure it out... It's their fucking country.

[ToxicAvenger]

This is not about magical bombs.

Don't get me wrong, if we are in a War, a real war, where people are  trying to kill me for no reason, then if I go to an area where the enemy is supposed to be and there are people there, then they ARE the enemy.

and saddam ws the enemy why?  

we kill thousands...with thousands of men stranded in Iraq with their wives and kiddies killed...and then we are SURPRISED   when those men are pissed off at us and having no other option join terrorist orginization...or we are SURPRISED when they try to kill our soldiers...yeesh

pretty conveniently facking contrived isn't it?

its a case of giving a dog a bad name and hanging him