How bad can waterboarding really be?

[grab an umbrella]

Timfogarty, were you referring to the Geneva convention that we didn't ratify?

[tu_holmes]

Can you prove that? Maybe the first time (maybe) but I doubt they didn't catch on.

I doubt the SEALs know exactly what is going on, either. Would kind of defeat the purpose of the training.

Jessie Ventura says that if done incorrectly, that you can definitely drown by waterboarding... So while we may do our best not to kill someone that way, is it possible it can happen?

Seems like that the idea of not knowing if you're going to die or not is the general premise of torture.

[The ChemistV2]

The one thing I've never had answered for me to any satisfaction is why so-called leftist/liberals are always so overly concerned with the treatment and comfort of some of the worst factions of humanity..murderers, rapists, child molesters, terrorists.. yet seem to show little empathy for the victims of these individuals. The ACLU's defense of NAMBLA, an organization that champions sexual activity between grown men and young boys is nothing short of reprehensible. There are so many examples I could use to prove my point, but suffice to say..their worldview on these matters is totally alien to me.

[headhuntersix]

If some jihadi scumbag was to waterboard me, they'd get nothing. On the other hand...leave me in a room full of bugs, I'd sing like a little bitch. Luckily they only behead u on Utube.

[headhuntersix]

The one thing I've never had answered for me to any satisfaction is why so-called leftist/liberals are always so overly concerned with the treatment and comfort of some of the worst factions of humanity..murderers, rapists, child molesters, terrorists.. yet seem to show little empathy for the victims of these individuals. The ACLU's defense of NAMBLA, an organization that champions sexual activity between grown men and young boys is nothing short of reprehensible. There are so many examples I could use to prove my point, but suffice to say..their worldview on these matters is totally alien to me.

Thats the heart of the matter...its not like the waterboarded saints. These people got what they had coming to them. Anybody know anybody who's been waterboarded,conversly anybody know anybody in the Pentagon or twin towers? A few here do.

[tu_holmes]

The one thing I've never had answered for me to any satisfaction is why so-called leftist/liberals are always so overly concerned with the treatment and comfort of some of the worst factions of humanity..murderers, rapists, child molesters, terrorists.. yet seem to show little empathy for the victims of these individuals. The ACLU's defense of NAMBLA, an organization that champions sexual activity between grown men and young boys is nothing short of reprehensible. There are so many examples I could use to prove my point, but suffice to say..their worldview on these matters is totally alien to me.

I think that the problem is that the ACLU goes overboard... most of them do.

I look at it very simply... For us to be the moral high ground when it comes to what is right, we have to actually have the moral high ground.

People call me naive and that's fine, but naivety is what eliminated segregation, slavery, and a host of other injustices. I refuse to believe that we should do something that is morally wrong just because someone else does something worse.

There is nothing good about that, so I defend everyone when it comes to torture.

I can not understand why you would think defending NAMBLA (which is disgusting) is really even remotely close to saying that we are the US and we should not torture.

[The ChemistV2]

I think that the problem is that the ACLU goes overboard... most of them do.

I look at it very simply... For us to be the moral high ground when it comes to what is right, we have to actually have the moral high ground.

People call me naive and that's fine, but naivety is what eliminated segregation, slavery, and a host of other injustices. I refuse to believe that we should do something that is morally wrong just because someone else does something worse.

There is nothing good about that, so I defend everyone when it comes to torture.

I can not understand why you would think defending NAMBLA (which is disgusting) is really even remotely close to saying that we are the US and we should not torture.

I was merely citing yet another example of leftist types defending and championing the worst factions of society or humanity. Any right thinking person would be defending the rights of the child over the child molester. Any logical person defending their country from terrorist acts (which is totally different than having a prisoner of war from a country we are in a declared war with) would be more concerned with the safety and well being of it's citizens over that of a Maniacal jihadist, so unevolved that their own lives are expendable to themselves. As far as moral high ground..we still have it. Waterboarding is mild when it comes to other torture options..you could say that, considering all, we are pretty humane . This is all political bullshit..you don't think we've been interrogating people harshly many, many years? It's been an unspoken neccesity. That's the harsh reality..The Utopian world that liberals envision in nothing more than a misguided fantasy..and now one that threatens to undermine the security of our country.

[timfogarty]

The ACLU's defense of NAMBLA, an organization that champions sexual activity between grown men and young boys is nothing short of reprehensible. There are so many examples I could use to prove my point, but suffice to say..their worldview on these matters is totally alien to me.

NAMBLA?  NAMBLA?   a half dozen guys who publish some literature?   a case from 2000?

ACLU To Represent NAMBLA

By Martin Finucane
Associated Press Writer
Thursday, Aug. 31, 2000; 5:19 p.m. EDT

BOSTON –– Saying important First Amendment issues are at stake, the American Civil Liberties Union is stepping in to defend a group that advocates sex between men and boys against a lawsuit brought by the family of a murdered 10-year-old.

The family of Jeffrey Curley of Cambridge claims in its lawsuit that the North American Man/Boy Love Association and its Web site incited the molestation and murder of the boy in 1997.

The Massachusetts chapter of the ACLU said Thursday it will defend NAMBLA because the group's activities are protected under First Amendment guarantees of freedom of speech and freedom of association.

"Under the First Amendment, there are no illegal ideas. Those who commit illegal acts can be punished for wrongful conduct, but the expression of even offensive ideas is protected by our Constitution," the ACLU said in a statement.

The ACLU has long accepted unpopular clients and despised causes, including Ku Klux Klansmen and neo-Nazis. In 1977, the ACLU defended the right of Nazis to march in Skokie, Ill. – home to many Holocaust survivors. Thousands of ACLU members quit and contributions plunged.

"The Constitution is for everybody. But there are some people who just don't understand that and never will," said Harvey Silverglate, an ACLU board member.  

ACLU officials said that NAMBLA argues for changes in society's views about consensual sex between adults and minors and a lowering of the age of consent. Silverglate said NAMBLA does not advocate illegal acts, and even if it did, that, too, would be protected by the First Amendment.

[w8tlftr]

I think it's pretty same to assume that most of us, even the most liberal on this board, would use "extreme" interrogation techniques to extract information if we knew some shitbag absolutely had critical information that would save the lives of innocents. Especially if those innocents were our immediate family and closest friends.

[ToxicAvenger]

I'm not advocating or defending it, but if all SEALs go through this (multiple times) as part of their survival training, then how bad can it really be? Is it just as bad (or possibly worse) as Muslim torture which consists of electrical shock, amputation, beatings and beheadings? 

exhibit A : no better than the taliban    at least those fuckers are uneducated..this idiot claims to go to uconn 

i might take an inkling to posting certain #s on craigs list again 

[Fury]

exhibit A : no better than the taliban    at least those fuckers are uneducated..this idiot claims to go to uconn 

i might take an inkling to posting certain #s on craigs list again 

Still following me around? 

Not surprising that you're too stupid to see the whole point of this thread.

You take this place too seriously.

[Dos Equis]

BOSTON –– Saying important First Amendment issues are at stake, the American Civil Liberties Union is stepping in to defend a group that advocates sex between men and boys against a lawsuit brought by the family of a murdered 10-year-old.

. . .

ACLU officials said that NAMBLA argues for changes in society's views about consensual sex between adults and minors and a lowering of the age of consent. Silverglate said NAMBLA does not advocate illegal acts, and even if it did, that, too, would be protected by the First Amendment.

Absolutely despicable.  Indefensible.   

[Deicide]

Even if you don't care about the moral aspect of waterboarding or other torture forms, it has been shown that it does not produce reliable information. Pragmatically, it is useless.

[The ChemistV2]

Absolutely despicable.  Indefensible.   

I'm sure some Liberals on here will take you to task over this.

[timfogarty]

I think it's pretty same to assume that most of us, even the most liberal on this board, would use "extreme" interrogation techniques to extract information if we knew some shitbag absolutely had critical information that would save the lives of innocents. Especially if those innocents were our immediate family and closest friends.

right click to view clearly

[The ChemistV2]

Even if you don't care about the moral aspect of waterboarding or other torture forms, it has been shown that it does not produce reliable information. Pragmatically, it is useless.

That's the data used to support our "Official Policy" that we don't torture. There's a huge difference between the Official Policy..which is what is sold to the American Public and the rest of the world and the true Reality and neccesity of what really occurs. Once the CIA started showing memo's where attacks were prevented, suddenly leftists want to stop de-classifying all the memos. Obama's group only wants to reveal parts, not the effective results portions. If it didn't provide reliable data, it wouldn't have been used throughout the years, The CIA doesn't chronically utilize useless intelligence gathering protocols.

[timfogarty]

If it didn't provide reliable data, it wouldn't have been used throughout the years, The CIA doesn't chronically utilize useless intelligence gathering protocols.

waterboarding was not being used prior to 2002

[Deicide]

That's the data used to support our "Official Policy" that we don't torture. There's a huge difference between the Official Policy..which is what is sold to the American Public and the rest of the world and the true Reality and neccesity of what really occurs. Once the CIA started showing memo's where attacks were prevented, suddenly leftists want to stop de-classifying all the memos. Obama's group only wants to reveal parts, not the effective results portions. If it didn't provide reliable data, it wouldn't have been used throughout the years, The CIA doesn't chronically utilize useless intelligence gathering protocols.

I think the effectiveness of the of the CIA in general is overrated; most famously, a year or so prior to the collapse of the USSR they were still overestimating the the size of the Soviet economy by 50%. I think there is the general perception that the CIA is infallible but there is little evidence to support this and for this reason I see little evidence to suggest that waterboarding produces very effective information.

[Deicide]

waterboarding was not being used prior to 2002

I think it probably was; remember that the practise of kidnapping people off the streets of random countries to be tortured in Egypt or some other 3rd world country was implemented under Clinton. It has probably been used for decades but hadn't come to light prior to recent times. Most Americans aren't aware of CIA sponsored genocide and assassinations either but they are well documented. I think it is similar in the case of torture.

[OzmO]

I think the effectiveness of the of the CIA in general is overrated; most famously, a year or so prior to the collapse of the USSR they were still overestimating the the size of the Soviet economy by 50%. I think there is the general perception that the CIA is infallible but there is little evidence to support this and for this reason I see little evidence to suggest that waterboarding produces very effective information.

The "CIA" has never been a commonly accepted oxymoron  lol.

[tonymctones]

I look at it very simply... For us to be the moral high ground when it comes to what is right, we have to actually have the moral high ground.

People call me naive and that's fine, but naivety is what eliminated segregation, slavery, and a host of other injustices. I refuse to believe that we should do something that is morally wrong just because someone else does something worse.

There is nothing good about that, so I defend everyone when it comes to torture.

This is where the left loses me, MORAL HIGH GROUND

we dont do half the things those shit bags do but somehow by waterboarding we are on the same level as ppl who target civilians, use women, young kids and mental defectives as suicide bombers, behead captives, intentionally put civilians in harms way...SORRY HOLMES US WATERBOARDING DOESNT CAUSE US TO LOSE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND...that arguement is just assinine, we are still miles above those duesch bags...

Another point is WHO THE FUCK CARES??? these ppl are trying to kill us, what part of that dont you guys understand? they are lucky that all they got was waterboarding.

[The ChemistV2]

waterboarding was not being used prior to 2002

I was referring more to the fact that it's been used historically for years..in fact it dates back to the Spanish inquisition and obviously produces results or it wouldn't continue to be utilized during modern times.

[Deicide]

The "CIA" has never been a commonly accepted oxymoron  lol.

Good one Oz.

[Dos Equis]

This is where the left loses me, MORAL HIGH GROUND

we dont do half the things those shit bags do but somehow by waterboarding we are on the same level as ppl who target civilians, use women, young kids and mental defectives as suicide bombers, behead captives, intentionally put civilians in harms way...SORRY HOLMES US WATERBOARDING DOESNT CAUSE US TO LOSE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND...that arguement is just assinine, we are still miles above those duesch bags...

Another point is WHO THE FUCK CARES??? these ppl are trying to kill us, what part of that dont you guys understand? they are lucky that all they got was waterboarding.

Completely agree.  That's what I'm sayin.  Comparing us with them is just flat out wrong.  And I don't care about those animals either.   

[Deicide]

I was referring more to the fact that it's been used historically for years..in fact it dates back to the Spanish inquisition and obviously produces results or it wouldn't continue to be utilized during modern times.

What a terrible example...the Spanish Inquisition, are you serious? That was a tyrannical organisation whose main purpose was to enforce obedience in others, forceably covert the unwilling and sow fear. Bad example.