funny how they are desensitizinfg people to waterboarding w/ all the dialogue

[MB_722]

 

[drkaje]

They should release the videos of this enhanced interrogation technique being done on prisoners.
Reporters and other volunteers aren't getting the full experience.

[Deicide]

They should release the videos of this enhanced interrogation technique being done on prisoners.
Reporters and other volunteers aren't getting the full experience.

Damn, I fucking hate faux news.

[Soul Crusher]

Like I said on the other board, even if it is tirture, I still have ZERO problem with it under the ticking time bomb scenario when thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of lives are at stake.

[drkaje]

If it's an ethical, legal, advanced method in Gitmo why aren't we using it here? We could find out where Madoff/EnRon execs stashed all that money, where Jimmy Hoffa is buried, where Santa Claus lives, etc...

People are bullshitters most of the time about crap like this. Same as with the wars. People insist we should be there until the idea of having a draft (with no exception/waiver) comes comes up and then they start to stutter. People only have commitment to shit like this that doesn't affect them personally.

[Deicide]

If it's an ethical, legal, advanced method in Gitmo why aren't we using it here? We could find out where Madoff/EnRon execs stashed all that money, where Jimmy Hoffa is buried, where Santa Claus lives, etc...

People are bullshitters most of the time about crap like this. Same as with the wars. People insist we should be there until the idea of having a draft (with no exception/waiver) comes comes up and then they start to stutter. People only have commitment to shit like this that doesn't affect them personally.

Oozing truth with the genetics to back it up as usual.

[The Master]

Like I said on the other board, even if it is tirture, I still have ZERO problem with it under the ticking time bomb scenario when thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of lives are at stake.

Agree. If cutting terrorists up into little pieces would help, do it.

[Soul Crusher]

If it's an ethical, legal, advanced method in Gitmo why aren't we using it here? We could find out where Madoff/EnRon execs stashed all that money, where Jimmy Hoffa is buried, where Santa Claus lives, etc...

People are bullshitters most of the time about crap like this. Same as with the wars. People insist we should be there until the idea of having a draft (with no exception/waiver) comes comes up and then they start to stutter. People only have commitment to shit like this that doesn't affect them personally.

I agree that it is torture and that I dont have a problem with it.  Does that make me a phoney?

[Deicide]

Agree. If cutting terrorists up into little pieces would help, do it.

Disagree. Intellectual advancement is great but without the ethics to back it up, it is hollow and bankrupt.

[Deicide]

I agree that it is torture and that I dont have a problem with it.  Does that make me a phoney?

What would be the argument against torturing common murderers who hold up liquor stores? Would you favour that too?

[Soul Crusher]

Disagree. Intellectual advancement is great but without the ethics to back it up, it is hollow and bankrupt.

What is the morality and ethics in allowing thousands of INNOCENT people to be murdered solely as a result of your refusal to place into discomfort a terrorist and murderer or co-conspirator to murder?

I simply dont understand the mindset that says that the lives of thousands of innocent people are no different than that of one or two murderers or terrorists.

To me, it is not only unethical, but completely immoral and depraved to allow thousands of innocent people to be murdered because you dont want to pour water over the head of a terrorist in some misguided sense of "ethics".

[drkaje]

I agree that it is torture and that I dont have a problem with it.  Does that make me a phoney?

At least you're being intellectually honest on the issue.

Would you feel comfortable letting our local police have access to this 'advanced interrogation' technique? Millions of Americans need to live in save neighborhoods and crime (street and white collar) affects far more citizens on a daily basis than the 911 attacks did. Why rob US citizens of such a valuable tool?

[Soul Crusher]

What would be the argument against torturing common murderers who hold up liquor stores? Would you favour that too?

I'm talking of a ticking timb bomb situation where we know a terrorist plot is imminent and thousands of lives are at risk.

A murder in a liquor store is not the same thing as a plot to set off a dirty bomb or blow up airliners and skyscrapers.  

[Soul Crusher]

At least you're being intellectually honest on the issue.

Would you feel comfortable letting our local police have access to this 'advanced interrogation' technique? Millions of Americans need to live in save neighborhoods and crime (street and white collar) affects far more citizens on a daily basis than the 911 attacks did. Why rob US citizens of such a valuable tool?

Under certain circumatances yes.  I live in NYC and if we had another 9/11 type attack killing 3000 people and learned later on that it possibly could have been prevented but for a ban on waterboarding, there would be massive protests.   

[drkaje]

Under certain circumatances yes.  I live in NYC and if we had another 9/11 type attack killing 3000 people and learned later on that it possibly could have been prevented but for a ban on waterboarding, there would be massive protests.   

I don't personally trust most cops to have the appropriate level of judgement.

[Soul Crusher]

I don't personally trust most cops to have the appropriate level of judgement.

Niether do I, but i can let my distrust of cops get in the way of possibly saving thousands of innocent lives under the ticking time bomb scenario.

[Deicide]

What is the morality and ethics in allowing thousands of INNOCENT people to be murdered solely as a result of your refusal to place into discomfort a terrorist and murderer or co-conspirator to murder?

I simply dont understand the mindset that says that the lives of thousands of innocent people are no different than that of one or two murderers or terrorists.

To me, it is not only unethical, but completely immoral and depraved to allow thousands of innocent people to be murdered because you dont want to pour water over the head of a terrorist in some misguided sense of "ethics".

Torture is perhaps the least effective way of extracting information there is and moreover drakje is right. Many crimes and other problems could be solved if police would begin waterboarding criminals. Why won't you answer the question? In Saudi Arabia there are extremely low crime rates; criminals fear minimal punishments of amputation and for mild crimes decapitation. Why not use that as a deterent to crime in the US?

[The Master]

Disagree. Intellectual advancement is great but without the ethics to back it up, it is hollow and bankrupt.

Disagree. When terrorists puts the lives of hundreds or thousands at risk, doing whatever it takes to get useful info out of them = needed. Just like SWAT teams and police shoots hostage holders the first chance they get to save the hostages, terrorists = doing about the same thing.

[Deicide]

Disagree. When terrorists puts the lives of hundreds or thousands at risk, doing whatever it takes to get useful info out of them = needed. Just like SWAT teams and police shoots hostage holders the first chance they get to save the hostages, terrorists = doing about the same thing.

Torture=not useful for getting information.

[The Master]

Torture=not useful for getting information.

Debussey can not properly evaluate your statement.

Debussey's initial statement could be described as: If the most extreme methods worked to get into (even if it meant putting them into a meat-grinder), it should be used.

[Deicide]

Debussey can not properly evaluate your statement.

Debussey's initial statement could be described as: If the most extreme methods worked to get into (even if it meant putting them into a meat-grinder), it should be used.

IF they worked and given most torture techniques' histories, it is very doubtful they work. Remember for the longest time torture was used to extract confessions, which are NOT the same as useful information.

[The Master]

IF they worked and given most torture techniques' histories, it is very doubtful they work. Remember for the longest time torture was used to extract confessions, which are NOT the same as useful information.

We = not discussing the same thing here.

Debussey = saying that if an extreme method works the best, it should be used on terrorists instead of not using the most effective way due to ethics (and endangering the lives and/or safety of many in the process). It = more ethical to use whatever means necessary on a terrorist than not.

[Deicide]

We = not discussing the same thing here.

Debussey = saying that if an extreme method works the best, it should be used on terrorists instead of not using the most effective way due to ethics (and endangering the lives and/or safety of many in the process). It = more ethical to use whatever means necessary on a terrorist than not.

I am willing to grant credence to pragmatic arguments but these techniques DON'T work. If they did though, what would prevent police from doing the same to a guy who robs a store?

[The Master]

I am willing to grant credence to pragmatic arguments but these techniques DON'T work. If they did though, what would prevent police from doing the same to a guy who robs a store?

You have different punishment for different crimes.

And who says these methods should be used in full public? Debussey thinks intelligence departments should handle terrorism and do these things without public awareness, as is practiced a lot today actually.

[Deicide]

You have different punishment for different crimes.

And who says these methods should be used in full public? Debussey thinks intelligence departments should handle terrorism and do these things without public awareness, as is practiced a lot today actually.

This=very true.