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Author Topic: Will powerlifting ever go back to this??  (Read 6408 times)
QuakerOats
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« on: May 29, 2009, 08:18:49 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbDse2FyxSA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbDse2FyxSA</a>

below parallel, unquestionable, walked out squats, minimal equipment benches without the crazy arch, etc.
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« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2009, 08:24:14 PM »

feds out there for everyone man you know that... until one style becomes INSANELY popular than the other, then i don't see it happening BUT, if you like lifting a certain way and respect a particular "judging medium" then join the fed you like like me! HAHA!


The arch and setup on a SOLID bench like it tate's video I posted in the PL forum makes sense and shouldn't be an issue as long as your ass stays planted.. beyond that when it comes to safety and efficiency, benching the way it's been portrayed is smart...


however I'm still a raw lifter and not the biggest fan of all the gear.. i've gone strictly raw lately and bottomed out all my squats for this reason. No wraps, no belt, etc.. and i feel alot more confident and have alot more respect for myself doing it this way especially when it comes to squats... sitting down DEEP just feels GOOOOOOOOOD!

did you see scott weech squat 854 or something like that in the raw unity meet? HUGE deep raw squat!
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« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2009, 10:54:35 PM »

The short answer is no.

It is funny though when someone sees you in the gym and says "wow! You really squat all the way down. What is the purpose of that?" I have actually had someone say this to me before. All I could do was try to explain through a giant smirk. Cheesy
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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2009, 12:16:57 PM »

The short answer is no.

It is funny though when someone sees you in the gym and says "wow! You really squat all the way down. What is the purpose of that?" I have actually had someone say this to me before. All I could do was try to explain through a giant smirk. Cheesy
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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2009, 12:28:55 PM »

I honestly think that powerlifting is going into a good direction, minus the fact that some organisations give too much "leeway" in the squat. At least where i live powerlifting is making a major comeback and I'm ready to compete myself, but when the guy who got 1st place benches 370 kg and there is no "beginners competitions" it kind of takes the taste out of my mouth.

IN ANY CASE KAZ WAS KING.
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« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2009, 05:17:25 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbDse2FyxSA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbDse2FyxSA</a>

below parallel, unquestionable, walked out squats, minimal equipment benches without the crazy arch, etc.

Doubtful unfortunately. So many people are so obsessed with equipment these days. I respect equipped lifters and for me it's great to watch, though personally I will always be more impressed by a huge raw lift. The arch etc doesn't bother me, it's simply a technique adjustment. The huge amount of equipment is becoming a little silly as well. It hurts powerlifting as a spectator's sport imo. So much time between lifts because guys are getting pried into a shirt etc.

On a slightly different point: Imo people shouldn't be lifting equipped until they have a few years raw training behind them. There are kids I know and they have gone straight into equipped, without any idea of how to use the gear. They are only squatting about 350-400lbs equipped and I've seen some bomb out because they can't get their depth right. This is a pet hate and really frustrates me. I can't understand why a dude around my age will shell out money on a suit simply to squat a small weight like that after a short time training. I really can't get my head around it

Rant over  Grin
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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2009, 06:04:42 AM »

equipped lifting has gotten so over the top that raw lifting is going to make a comeback. a lot of feds are now opening up raw classes, and a few feds have started up "classic" powerlifting (meaning no suit/shirt, but knee and wrist wraps are allowed). plus with the WPO out of the arnold in favor of the USAPL or whichever single-ply fed, it's clear that the massive canvas suits and kevlar shirts are losing their popularity.

with good reason, too. talk to most people about a suited lift and they roll their eyes. seeing a 220 pound guy with 1100 on his back is impressive, but the awe is diminished when you watch him fight for 30 seconds to make it to BARELY parallel before shooting straight back up.

one reason it blows is that they've turned a half-ton squat into nothing major. sam byrd has a 1050 squat as a friggin' 198. if you're a 242 or above a 1,000 pound squat is just an opener. meanwhile in the single-ply world a 1036 squat is an ALL TIME record. and raw? never happened. so we're going to be hit with a regress.
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« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2009, 09:48:06 AM »

Back in Kaz`s day the powerlifters physique LOOKED like it was capable of lifting the weights they posted,nowadays you have guys benching 600 who look like they would snap if they got under 300.
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« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2009, 02:25:44 PM »

Back in Kaz`s day the powerlifters physique LOOKED like it was capable of lifting the weights they posted,nowadays you have guys benching 600 who look like they would snap if they got under 300.


yep, powerlifter of the 80/90'sss looled like gorilla, today they look like golfer.
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« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2009, 03:47:12 PM »

equipped lifting has gotten so over the top that raw lifting is going to make a comeback. a lot of feds are now opening up raw classes, and a few feds have started up "classic" powerlifting (meaning no suit/shirt, but knee and wrist wraps are allowed). plus with the WPO out of the arnold in favor of the USAPL or whichever single-ply fed, it's clear that the massive canvas suits and kevlar shirts are losing their popularity.

with good reason, too. talk to most people about a suited lift and they roll their eyes. seeing a 220 pound guy with 1100 on his back is impressive, but the awe is diminished when you watch him fight for 30 seconds to make it to BARELY parallel before shooting straight back up.

one reason it blows is that they've turned a half-ton squat into nothing major. sam byrd has a 1050 squat as a friggin' 198. if you're a 242 or above a 1,000 pound squat is just an opener. meanwhile in the single-ply world a 1036 squat is an ALL TIME record. and raw? never happened. so we're going to be hit with a regress.

Sam also has video out on the internet with there of over 800 lb squats in knee wraps and a belt.   You need to realize that before you start spouting.  He set that record in multiply becuase he decided that was the record he was going to set.   

Powerlifting has three very well established divisions now:  RAW (which may or may not include knee wraps) singly ply equipment, and multiply equipment.  Lifters lift in the division they choose to lift in because they can do so.   

There isn't anyone off the street rolling their eyes at Sams huge squats.  They don't have a clue what multiply gear is much less what the degree of support is with it.   Thats your own opinion clouding what they are actually doing.   They dont' have a clue. 

We had an incident at the commercial gym where I used to workout at where there was a gym bench contest.  Three guys showed up with bench shirts on under thier T-shirts. The fuckup running the contest knew it--hell I told him---he chose not to acknowledge it.   The people in the audience had NO CLUE what a bench shirt was, much less if there was any assistance from it.   THATS WHAT THE AVERAGE PERSON OFF THE STREET THINGS ABOUT GEAR.  THEY DON"T KNOW.    So to make comments about people rolling their eyes is just pure crap.    Accept the lifters for the division they choose to lift in   You don't like it?  Fine,lift RAW.   YOU HAVE THAT CHOICE in the sport of powerlifting.   









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« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2009, 03:52:51 PM »

Doubtful unfortunately. So many people are so obsessed with equipment these days. I respect equipped lifters and for me it's great to watch, though personally I will always be more impressed by a huge raw lift. The arch etc doesn't bother me, it's simply a technique adjustment. The huge amount of equipment is becoming a little silly as well. It hurts powerlifting as a spectator's sport imo. So much time between lifts because guys are getting pried into a shirt etc

What kind of powerlifting meets are you going to?   The ones I compete in you have one minute to get to the platform once your name is called.   You dont' make it in that time, you don't get extra time, you get called with a "no lift".    I'm not aware of any federation where the lifters are getting extra time for shirts---not only that, all the shirted lifters I know get the shirt set long before their attempts.  They aren't going to risk blowing their groove becuase of the shirt not being set right by pulling it on.   

Quote
On a slightly different point: Imo people shouldn't be lifting equipped until they have a few years raw training behind them. There are kids I know and they have gone straight into equipped, without any idea of how to use the gear. They are only squatting about 350-400lbs equipped and I've seen some bomb out because they can't get their depth right. This is a pet hate and really frustrates me. I can't understand why a dude around my age will shell out money on a suit simply to squat a small weight like that after a short time training. I really can't get my head around it

Rant over  Grin

I agree with you about this.   I was at a meet recently where there were  mid-teenage boys in single ply gear and one was talking about going up to multiply---yet he didn't bench 300 lbs.  If you take the time to build a good solid base of strength, it will translate to better overall gains once you switch to geared lifting.    Its kind of common sense as far as I'm concerned. 

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« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2009, 04:57:41 PM »

That being said, Vet, RAW is better!  Grin JK! To each their own. Hell I dont even do PL meets.


Congrats on the 1970 btw.
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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2009, 06:13:01 PM »

Sam also has video out on the internet with there of over 800 lb squats in knee wraps and a belt.   You need to realize that before you start spouting.  He set that record in multiply becuase he decided that was the record he was going to set.   

did you even READ my post? i said in there explicitly that the lifters are stronger than ever but the sport itself makes them look bad. and the funny thing is, in between shattering equipped records byrd has a tendency to explain that he really, really prefers raw lifting because it's more "real".

Quote
Powerlifting has three very well established divisions now:  RAW (which may or may not include knee wraps) singly ply equipment, and multiply equipment.  Lifters lift in the division they choose to lift in because they can do so.   

There isn't anyone off the street rolling their eyes at Sams huge squats.  They don't have a clue what multiply gear is much less what the degree of support is with it.   Thats your own opinion clouding what they are actually doing.   They dont' have a clue. 

We had an incident at the commercial gym where I used to workout at where there was a gym bench contest.  Three guys showed up with bench shirts on under thier T-shirts. The fuckup running the contest knew it--hell I told him---he chose not to acknowledge it.   The people in the audience had NO CLUE what a bench shirt was, much less if there was any assistance from it.   THATS WHAT THE AVERAGE PERSON OFF THE STREET THINGS ABOUT GEAR.  THEY DON"T KNOW.    So to make comments about people rolling their eyes is just pure crap.    Accept the lifters for the division they choose to lift in   You don't like it?  Fine,lift RAW.   YOU HAVE THAT CHOICE in the sport of powerlifting.   

two things here:

for the love of god shut up about "you have that choice". not only do i have the choice of where/how to lift, but i also have the choice to express my opinion. so i'm going to do it. deal. that's how having the choice works.

actually that's the funny thing. your whole point is that people don't know they EXIST, which is dubious at best (most of the lifters at my shitty little YMCA know plenty). they see donnie thompson's 1200+ pound squat or kennelly's 1075 pound bench and they think the person did it purely on their own power. they think the guy could go into any gym wearing a t-shirt and gym shorts, throw over a half on on the bar and lift it. their respect for the lifts is rooted in their ignorance of the equipment. in effect, multi-ply powerlifting is riding on people not understanding what they're looking at.

So that's the hilarious irony. the reason people on the street "aren't rolling their eyes" according to you is because they don't know what a suit is! you're defending the sport's respectability by pointing out that people have no idea what's actually happening! that's how sad things are, because you and i both know what happens when people first learn what shirts and suits are.

ONCE AGAIN, BECAUSE YOU SEEM TO HAVE A HARD TIME PICKING UP ON IT: this is not a knock on the LIFTERS, it's a knock on the STATE OF THE GAME.

everyone keeps saying "the suit doesn't lift it" and whatever else, but that's all with a wink. hop onto elitefts or inzer's website, look ad banner ads saying "this suit will put 50 pounds on your squat, GUARANTEED!"

we're at a point where lifters (both casual and pro) are having their lifts go up not because they improved their form or because their muscles grew more powerful, but because a fancy-shmancy new shirt or suit came along. the raw record has barely budged in decades but the shirted bench leaps up 50 pounds at a time. saying the shirt doesn't lift the weight is like saying a bicycle doesn't move so i should be allowed to ride one during the boston marathon.

consider the 1000 pound squat. raw, it has NEVER happened. no human being in history has squatted 1000 pounds in competition without help from gear. yet in the APF/IPA realm, a 1000 pound squat isn't just not a record breaker, it's practically middle of the road for the heavy lifters. if you're not benching over 500 pounds in your shirt you might as well stay home. a 1000 pound squat should be LEGENDARY, because it hasn't happened yet. but these days thanks to suits, a thousand pound squat is a "meh".
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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2009, 06:10:43 AM »

If you bench wearing a shirt its like being the Milli Vanilli of powerlifting.It wasn`t them singing on their songs,and it ain`t you lifting the weight. Grin
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« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2009, 07:25:43 AM »

to Vet, continuing the other thread...

to the "average guy", the gear worn doesn't matter because they DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS. i have seen time, and time, and time again where someone learns about a suit and suddenly they don't care about the lift any more. a friend of mine had seen a video of i think gene rychlak's 1010 bench and was talking about it, and somehow the topic of his shirt came up. i explained what the shirt was and how it worked.

his response was, and this is nearly a quote, "well that's bullshit, he might as well wear a trampoline". the only reason your claim of people not "caring" is because they don't know.

the reason multi-ply lifting pisses me off is that it becomes the face of powerlifting. all of the all-time records are given in multi-ply terms because "that's the most anyone's ever squatted". who benched at the olympia a few years ago? rychlak or hoornstra? when scot mendelson got his article in whatever bodybuilding mag, did they show him raw benching or going for 1050 in a shirt?

the sport has become not about getting stronger, but just getting the records up no matter what. that's why shallow squats and un-locked benches/pulls get white lights, the fed-runners just want to see higher and higher numbers on the record books. curtsy squats with kevlar suits and knee wraps so tight the person needs to be picked up off the floor just to get onto the platform (I've seen it happen), bench shirts so tight the lifter needs one person to hold his belt and another guy to push his arms out to the right width.

people bomb out of meets entirely because they can't get their shirts in the right places or they lost five pounds so it doesn't fit right. we're at a point where more people fail on the NEGATIVE than the positive because their gear is so jacked up they either can't hit parallel on the squat or the bar can't hit the right place on the bench. lifters can't do light weight openers because their shit is SO TIGHT they aren't able to get down the whole way with anything under their goal for the meet. no one, and I mean NO ONE, should be incapable of getting their opener.

see, i'd like to see a day where powerlifting is on ESPN, the lifters are sponsored by Met-RX and it's someone like matt kroc in the EAS commercial talking about how it "helps me get stronger week after week". that can't happen with this fragmented sport, and worse still when the lifting getting greatest exposure is the circus lifting it means no one else is going to get a piece. who wants to sponsor the raw 198 lifter trying to get a WR 740 squat when there's the other guy with 1065 on his shoulders in the same weight class? which is going to look better in adverts? hint: the multi-ply squat will look far crazier and more "hardcore".

it's not just a matter of choice, because it spiders out.
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« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2009, 12:54:12 PM »

did you even READ my post? i said in there explicitly that the lifters are stronger than ever but the sport itself makes them look bad. and the funny thing is, in between shattering equipped records byrd has a tendency to explain that he really, really prefers raw lifting because it's more "real".

two things here:

for the love of god shut up about "you have that choice". not only do i have the choice of where/how to lift, but i also have the choice to express my opinion. so i'm going to do it. deal. that's how having the choice works.

actually that's the funny thing. your whole point is that people don't know they EXIST, which is dubious at best (most of the lifters at my shitty little YMCA know plenty). they see donnie thompson's 1200+ pound squat or kennelly's 1075 pound bench and they think the person did it purely on their own power. they think the guy could go into any gym wearing a t-shirt and gym shorts, throw over a half on on the bar and lift it. their respect for the lifts is rooted in their ignorance of the equipment. in effect, multi-ply powerlifting is riding on people not understanding what they're looking at.

So that's the hilarious irony. the reason people on the street "aren't rolling their eyes" according to you is because they don't know what a suit is! you're defending the sport's respectability by pointing out that people have no idea what's actually happening! that's how sad things are, because you and i both know what happens when people first learn what shirts and suits are.

ONCE AGAIN, BECAUSE YOU SEEM TO HAVE A HARD TIME PICKING UP ON IT: this is not a knock on the LIFTERS, it's a knock on the STATE OF THE GAME.

everyone keeps saying "the suit doesn't lift it" and whatever else, but that's all with a wink. hop onto elitefts or inzer's website, look ad banner ads saying "this suit will put 50 pounds on your squat, GUARANTEED!"

we're at a point where lifters (both casual and pro) are having their lifts go up not because they improved their form or because their muscles grew more powerful, but because a fancy-shmancy new shirt or suit came along. the raw record has barely budged in decades but the shirted bench leaps up 50 pounds at a time. saying the shirt doesn't lift the weight is like saying a bicycle doesn't move so i should be allowed to ride one during the boston marathon.

consider the 1000 pound squat. raw, it has NEVER happened. no human being in history has squatted 1000 pounds in competition without help from gear. yet in the APF/IPA realm, a 1000 pound squat isn't just not a record breaker, it's practically middle of the road for the heavy lifters. if you're not benching over 500 pounds in your shirt you might as well stay home. a 1000 pound squat should be LEGENDARY, because it hasn't happened yet. but these days thanks to suits, a thousand pound squat is a "meh".

Key point
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« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2009, 12:57:04 PM »

What kind of powerlifting meets are you going to?   The ones I compete in you have one minute to get to the platform once your name is called.   You dont' make it in that time, you don't get extra time, you get called with a "no lift".    I'm not aware of any federation where the lifters are getting extra time for shirts---not only that, all the shirted lifters I know get the shirt set long before their attempts.  They aren't going to risk blowing their groove becuase of the shirt not being set right by pulling it on.   

I agree with you about this.   I was at a meet recently where there were  mid-teenage boys in single ply gear and one was talking about going up to multiply---yet he didn't bench 300 lbs.  If you take the time to build a good solid base of strength, it will translate to better overall gains once you switch to geared lifting.    Its kind of common sense as far as I'm concerned. 



It's a smaller community here, so I think some equipped lifters are given the benefit of a little extra time. Also, I have seen guys taking ages to load the bar cos their buddy is next to lift and hasn't got his wraps on yet etc
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« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2009, 01:11:11 PM »

Magoo, I see and I accept your point.  That said, you really seem to be someone preaching from the rafters.  The only question I have for you is "Have you ever competed in a bench contest wearing a shirt?".  If so how did you do?

Also, you have given examples, but remember the average person is going to cloud what they hear other people say based on what their opinions are.  I'm willing to bet you are hearing the same things I am, but you are focusing on one or two select people because they are saying what you want to hear, so you remember what they say.  The others are out there, you just don't hear them.  Accept it for where it is and compete in the division of the sport you want to compete in.  Don't harp on it, its not going to do you any good.   The other thing is if you present the bench shirts and squat suits as some superpowered assistance, well of course the people you talk too will say its cheating.  They don't know any better.  You are clouding their perceptions with your presentaiton of the information.  

Look at strongman competitions for example.   Shit, to watch it now days half the competitors are wearing knee sleeves, elbow sleeves, grip straps, power lifting briefs and deadlift suits.  Its not an issue with those competitions because people aren't ripping the the competitors a new asshole on the internet every chance they get accusing them of cheating and what not.   You want to make the sport better? Stop the fucking whining.   You can't go online anymore without finding the same debate we are having now. Thats whats hurting powerlifting, not the gear.  Powerlifters come across as a bunch of dissattisfied whiney meat heads.    Harping against the gear doesn't help that image at all.    

You also want to know why powerlifting isn't mainstream?   Three reasons: 1) many of the hardcore lifters don't want it that way.   Powerlifting is a garage gym, underground gym, backyard type sport that people from all walks of life compete in but lets face it, most of the people who do it are shunned from commercial gyms.  2) 600, 700, 1000 lb squats, 400, 500 600 lb bench presses, n700 lb, 1000 lb deadlifts.  "normal" gymgoers cant fathom that.  That alone makes it a freak show.  Combine that with powerlifters attitudes and you have something that isn't going to go mainstream beyond the freakshow aspect of it.    3) lets face it, powerlifting meets are EXTREMELY boring if you are watching them.   Most of the time is spent cleaning, loading the bar, or waiting for the 5 seconds of activity you have while a lifters is actually lifting the weight.   That will never sell beyond the occasional highlight reel.   Hell, thats why you never seen nything from Olympic lifting other than an occasional highlight.  The ADD of the average American prevents it from being successful.    The equipment used has nothing to do with it.  

Also, you want to know why people bomb on their openers? It doesnt have a damned thing to do with their gear.  Its because of their egos.  They choose the wrong weight, they try to come out and hit a huge weight they've never hit before.  Why?  They aren't training right and they aren't picking their openers right, not because of their gear.   I haned off for a good friend who bombed in the last meet.  Why?  Rather than do the smart tthing and open with a weight that they could handle, they opened with what was nearly a gym PR, and when they missed it, they decided to up the weight  rather than adjusting themselves and getting the weight.  I made my wife open RAW her last meet because she was having problems with her bench shirt cutting into her arms if we didn't have it adjusted just right.    She got her first lift and was still in the meet.    I was told I was stupid for doing that by two other lifters.  They would have opened in the shirt anyway and probably bombed.    In my mind, they weren't lifting smart at all.  
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« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2009, 01:18:24 PM »

It's a smaller community here, so I think some equipped lifters are given the benefit of a little extra time. Also, I have seen guys taking ages to load the bar cos their buddy is next to lift and hasn't got his wraps on yet etc


I honestly can't remember ever seeing that at a meet I've been at in the last year.   

that one minute seems to be pretty strict in the meets i've done as far as I can tell.   
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« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2009, 01:26:44 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbDse2FyxSA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbDse2FyxSA</a>

below parallel, unquestionable, walked out squats, minimal equipment benches without the crazy arch, etc.


The real irony of all of this is the simple fact that if Kaz was competing now days, I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that he'd be wearing a leviathan and a triple ply scooped neck grid stitched super-phenom.  He wouldn't be farting around in a singlet and a t-shirt.   The thing is they weren't available during his time.  He pushed the limits of what was available then.  Don't think he wouldn't do it with modern gear if he had the chance.  I'm willing to bet he would.    I also think its funny as hell that that little bit is completely and totally lost on those who want to "return to the thrilling days of yesteryear"
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« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2009, 01:48:33 PM »

Kaz would have torn shit up in a triple ply scooped neck grid stitched super-phenom! Grin
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« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2009, 04:22:02 PM »

Kaz would have torn shit up in a triple ply scooped neck grid stitched super-phenom! Grin

Grin
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« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2009, 04:45:54 PM »

i don't have time for a big response vet, but I'll say this:

i have never COMPETED equipped, but i trained for over a year with first a karin's double denim, then a grid-stitched double-ply rage-x, as well as a t-rex squat suit. i was able to squeeze about 130 pounds out of the shirt on a good day (in the denim i could get 465 with a 355 raw bench, in the rage-x only 455), i never had the equipment or the team to full-out try the suit, but i'd done 585 with it with no briefs, my normal work sets were 515 or so, straps down, for doubles and triples. at the time my best raw squat was maybe 435. on the deadlift i could get a whopping 140 pounds from it, sumo pulling 565 at my best when i'd never raw sumo pulled more than 425. i weighed 270 at the time, so my lifts kinda sucked.

i had this epiphany one day when i was visiting a friend in another state and we were talking lifts, i mentioned i'd gotten a 465 bench. the next day we were in the gym and he was hyping me up to another friend. but i didn't have my shirt and i had to explain that i can get 465 with my shirt, but only mid-300s without it. much as i tried to explain the deal of technique and how it's still super duper hard, the one guy said "oh so you can't REALLY do it", and my ego was pretty bruised.

i used all the standard analogies: shoes for runners, curved sticks for hockey players, better clubs for golfers, wet suits for swimmers, etc, to no avail.

a little while later i started losing weight, and my gear got looser. my raw lifts weren't down (actually my bench was better than ever), but equipped i couldn't do anything because my gear was a size loose. i'd have to spend another, oh, $450 on another set of shirt/suit/briefs just so i could still "lift" the same weight. if i wanted to move up or down a weight class i'd have to buy another wardrobe. if my shirt had a run in it (my denim shirt popped at one point), my training was hosed until it got fixed.

i started questioning things. if what i want to do is get stronger, if it's "power lifting", why am i constantly a slave to my gear? who's the lifter here, me or my shirt?

if you look at it as more of an "athletic spectacle" then yeah, i can see why multi-ply lifting doesn't irk you at all. after all, the bar is on YOUR shoulders, in YOUR hands, and without YOUR effort it isn't going anywhere. but to me lifting is just as much an exploration of the human limits as it is a sport, i want to get STRONGER. if my bench goes up 50 pounds after i bought a better shirt, did i get any stronger? no, i just have a new shirt. i can put 200 pounds on my bench without actually gaining a single new muscle cell, and that's crazy. then if i gain or lose 10 pounds suddenly i'm screwed.

it's like the old "guns don't kill people, people kill people" thing. yeah it's a person that pulls the trigger, but without that gun and bullet no one's gonna die. yeah the lifter lifts the bar, but without the shirt and cast-iron wrist wraps that bar won't budge.

i'm not enamoured with single-ply lifting either. to me that's just geared lifting that's too much of a pussy to admit it.
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« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2009, 06:05:10 PM »

i don't have time for a big response

Glad we dodged that bullet! Cool
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« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2009, 11:20:56 PM »

Glad we dodged that bullet! Cool

He's young yet.  He'll learn......     Wink   Cheesy



Seriously Magoo, I do see your point.  You stated it very well in your short response.   The fact that you are able to put your thoughts into a statement like that gets props from me.  At the same time I think you fell in to the "slave to the gear" trap.    I know people like that.... They get so caught up in the gear that they lose sight of the basics of what they are doing.   Honestly, with the lifts you put up, at your size, if you were training with me, I wouldn't have put you in gear yet.  You were using too much way too soon.  You didn't have the base strength nessary in my mind to even remotely be looking at the equipment you were using.  You also got abosolutely nothing from it if those are the only numbers you were getting.  You made too big of a jump without knowing what you were doing and apparently without having the resources available (ie an experienced lifter or training partner) to have someone show you.  Its no wonder you got discouraged.       

Maybe I'm warped, but I see geared lifting as being a progression.    You start out RAW, then progress to single ply, and then progress to multiply.   As you get to more advanced gear it becomes a game of techinique as well as one of brute power.  When I was doing RAW bench contests, I pretty much didn't know what I was doing so I'd tend to just try to musclefuck the weight.   You get out of your groove in a shirt and that simply wont happen.   You have to be srtrong and you have to have technique. 

If lifting RAW suits you, then lift RAW.  The thing is multiply lifting is a very real part of powerlifting.  You aren't going to change it.   Put your energy into training, not getting pissed off about it. 
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