Author Topic: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.  (Read 42128 times)

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #225 on: June 03, 2009, 12:27:10 PM »
Why don't you answer yourself. You say abortion is murder, but it's fine if someone was raped or it was a result of incest. How can that possibly be? Either it's murder or it isn't. Why does it make a difference how the child was conceived?

Then you go on to say that abolishing abortion will make women think twice about opening their legs. That sounds to me more like wanting control women, rather than really being worried about murder.

You also say that alleviating men of their responsibilities to pay for their children is part and parcel of allowing abortion, which is laughable. Back in the wayback days, before abortion was legal, the nineteen fifties, women were basically left on their own if a guy didn't want his child. There were lots of homes for unwed mothers, and the children of such relationships were considered bastards. Less than human. That's what it was like in the good old days. Was there less unprotected sex?  Hahahaha.

In our society today, men don't get off just impregnating women and running off, and abortion isn't for everyone. Would the availability of abortion or not change things for Desmond. No. Not in the least. Abolishing abortion would only mean that the rich get it, and the poor die. Or have a bunch of children. Same shit. Different century.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25559154-401,00.html

that answered absolutely nothing but ill address your ignorance if youd like...first off you seem to have seen my post before but not taken into account all of the post like 240 you spin much of your shit...rape is not consentual that in and of itself makes it a debateable factor, seeing as even if you use birth control there is a .01% chance you might get pregnant you take that chance knowingly so pregnancy from consentual sex cannot be compared to pregnancy from rape. Also I put a qualifier on it which you conviently left out as per the mothers health physical and MENTAL, rape is a very traumatic event and has far reaching consequences especially mental health wise...i already said that if incest is consentual theres really not much to be done about it something again you conviently left out.

NEVER SAID IT WOULD MAKE THEM THINK TWICE ABOUT OPENING THEIR LEGS...again nice spin what i said was that it might make them think twice about using birth control...big difference

LOL actually its a very valid point look up "liberal double standard for abortion" and you will see that it is taught in college level logic classes across the country...maybe you missed that class?

your right in our society men dont have the right to just impregnate a women and walk away but women do have the right to allow that man to impregnate her and for her to walk away, that seem fair to you? your right abortion isnt for everyone birth control is though...

Deedee

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5067
  • They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm.
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #226 on: June 03, 2009, 12:53:49 PM »
that answered absolutely nothing but ill address your ignorance if youd like...first off you seem to have seen my post before but not taken into account all of the post like 240 you spin much of your shit...rape is not consentual that in and of itself makes it a debateable factor, seeing as even if you use birth control there is a .01% chance you might get pregnant you take that chance knowingly so pregnancy from consentual sex cannot be compared to pregnancy from rape. Also I put a qualifier on it which you conviently left out as per the mothers health physical and MENTAL, rape is a very traumatic event and has far reaching consequences especially mental health wise...i already said that if incest is consentual theres really not much to be done about it something again you conviently left out.

NEVER SAID IT WOULD MAKE THEM THINK TWICE ABOUT OPENING THEIR LEGS...again nice spin what i said was that it might make them think twice about using birth control...big difference

LOL actually its a very valid point look up "liberal double standard for abortion" and you will see that it is taught in college level logic classes across the country...maybe you missed that class?

your right in our society men dont have the right to just impregnate a women and walk away but women do have the right to allow that man to impregnate her and for her to walk away, that seem fair to you? your right abortion isnt for everyone birth control is though...

Why is it debatable? Murder is murder. First things first. If life begins at conception, why is it okay to murder a woebegotten little infant who was conceived of a violent act as opposed to one not.

Esplain me, how it is different.

Well beyond the shit you spewed about psychological damage. Tiller was helping people with psychological damage apparently, which the fundies didn't like, so please find a better reason. And anyway, the fundies are right. It's murder or not. Quite simple really. Has nothing to do with spin.

What I also find odd is that Beach Bum and other fundies will post endless stories about abortion, but not one ever asking men to take responsibility for their actions. That's pretty much telling as well about the mentality of people who populate this board.

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #227 on: June 03, 2009, 01:26:32 PM »
Why is it debatable? Murder is murder. First things first. If life begins at conception, why is it okay to murder a woebegotten little infant who was conceived of a violent act as opposed to one not.

Esplain me, how it is different.

Well beyond the shit you spewed about psychological damage. Tiller was helping people with psychological damage apparently, which the fundies didn't like, so please find a better reason. And anyway, the fundies are right. It's murder or not. Quite simple really. Has nothing to do with spin.
first thing is first weve never said when life begins which is what i posed to straw which is where you jumped in and didnt answer anything...If youve seen the past post youve referred to then youve also already seen my feelings on rape and abortion maybe its like the other things you either spun or just left out? I agree the fetus is innocent in any case the fact of the matter is that the mother wasnt not a willing participant in the act that led to the conception, and forcing her to carry an infant is like forcing a person to raise a child that doesnt want it. If you consentually partake in a act with full knowledge that that act may lead to pregnancy you should own that responsibility if you get pregnant and not get an abortion. Also i think its very laughable how you down play the psychological devistation that happens when a person is raped, you think those effects would be greater or less if a person was forced to carry a baby of such an act?

the conversation me and straw were having before you jumped in had moved way past tiller and this horrible act commited...so please catch up to us.

when do you believe life begins and why? you do understand that putting an arbitrary number on it leaves the door open to infantcide and justifiable homocide dont you?

you have yet to answer one question of mine only deflect things and pose questions of your own, if youd like to have a conversation instead of talking at me please answer some of my questions.

loco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19094
  • loco like a fox
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #228 on: June 03, 2009, 01:28:43 PM »
I wouldn't say it was religious if the extreme pro-lifers didn't use the religion as their reasoning for why they did it.

They all say that it's God's will... That's their excuse.

I never said all pro-lifers were violent... That's stretching.

Then you should stop saying that this was religious since most religious pro-lifers, to my knowledge, use the same non-religious justifications when making arguments that secular pro-lifers use: "Life begins at conception, therefore abortion is murder", the right to life of the unborn, etc.

Ronald Reagan on abortion
http://www.priestsforlife.org/government/reaganabortionquotes.htm

George W. Bush on abortion
http://www.issues2000.org/2004/George_W__Bush_Abortion.htm

U.S. Senator Sam Brownback
http://www.priestsforlife.org/government/brownback00-04-08abortionconsciencenation.pdf

Besides, even if a person murdered another person saying "in the name of Jesus Christ", it does not follow that Christianity is bad or that Christianity leads to murders since looking at the teachings of Jesus Christ it is perfectly clear that Christianity is all about the complete opposite, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, etc.

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22729
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #229 on: June 03, 2009, 01:34:37 PM »
Historically, secular ideologies have out murdered religion, by millions.  Whether or not you trust the accuracy of history in general is another story.  If there are slight inaccuracies in the numbers, and there probably are since nothing is perfect and nothing is for sure, it would make no difference since the difference is so large.

As for times before recorded history, the human population was not nearly as large back then to match the millions murdered in the name of secular ideologies.

Possibly so.  I haven't seen much posted on both sides other than rhetoric, editorial style articles.  They should take it by each century.

Deedee

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5067
  • They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm.
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #230 on: June 03, 2009, 01:48:07 PM »
first thing is first weve never said when life begins which is what i posed to straw which is where you jumped in and didnt answer anything...If youve seen the past post youve referred to then youve also already seen my feelings on rape and abortion maybe its like the other things you either spun or just left out? I agree the fetus is innocent in any case the fact of the matter is that the mother wasnt not a willing participant in the act that led to the conception, and forcing her to carry an infant is like forcing a person to raise a child that doesnt want it. If you consentually partake in a act with full knowledge that that act may lead to pregnancy you should own that responsibility if you get pregnant and not get an abortion. Also i think its very laughable how you down play the psychological devistation that happens when a person is raped, you think those effects would be greater or less if a person was forced to carry a baby of such an act?

the conversation me and straw were having before you jumped in had moved way past tiller and this horrible act commited...so please catch up to us.

when do you believe life begins and why? you do understand that putting an arbitrary number on it leaves the door open to infantcide and justifiable homocide dont you?

you have yet to answer one question of mine only deflect things and pose questions of your own, if youd like to have a conversation instead of talking at me please answer some of my questions.

Its not really about you or your flavor of the day conversation with Straw Man. Ethics is simply that. One's ethical outlook transcends conversations on a message board.

it should be quite simple for you to answer. Either abortion is abhorrent as it is murder, or it is not.

An either/or answer will suffice.

NOW that you're being called on it, you're talking about psychological impact? Wasn't that the no-no of all reasoning for all abortions and the idea leading up to the doctor's murder? lol. You one or two guys on getbig slay me.

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41015
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #231 on: June 03, 2009, 01:53:10 PM »
More patients of Dr. Tiller.

I truly hope no one on this site has to face the choice that Dr. Tiller's patients had to deal with:

http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/kansasstories.html


tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #232 on: June 03, 2009, 01:56:13 PM »
Its not really about you or your flavor of the day conversation with Straw Man. Ethics is simply that. One's ethical outlook transcends conversations on a message board.

it should be quite simple for you to answer. Either abortion is abhorrent as it is murder, or it is not.

An either/or answer will suffice.
you could just as easily be a 240 gimmick account you spin others words and leave out pertinent information, never answer questions, and deflect points...

I already agreed with you, abortion is basically murder imho in all cases, that being said i dont think we as ppl should be able to tell a person who had it forced upon them what to do its a horrible decision to have to make i wouldnt wish it upon anyone, when you have consenual sex even if its with birth control you accept the possibility of pregnancy meaning you should own up to your responsibility bc it was not forced upon you.

Now please just please answer one of my questions...

when do you believ life begins and why? this is very pertinent to our conversation.
you think its fair for women to have an abortion but not allow men to walk away? does this sound like equal rights to you?
or any of the other questions ive posed to you

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24455
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #233 on: June 03, 2009, 02:05:23 PM »
Why I am an abortion doctor

'I can take a woman, in the biggest trouble she has ever experienced in her life, and by performing a five-minute operation, in comfort and dignity, I can give her back her life'

Garson Romalis, © Garson Romalis 
Published: Monday, February 04, 2008


A newspaper headline tells the story outside the Seymour Medical Clinic the day
after Dr. Garson Romalis was stabbed there on Jul. 11, 2000.Lyle Stafford/National Post


What follows are remarks delivered by Canadian abortion doctor Garson Romalis on Jan. 25, at the University of Toronto Law School's Symposium to Mark the 20th Anniversary of R. vs. Morgentaler
---

I am honoured to be speaking today, and honored to call Henry Morgentaler my friend.

I have been an abortion provider since 1972. Why do I do abortions, and why do I continue to do abortions, despite two murder attempts?

The first time I started to think about abortion was in 1960, when I was in secondyear medical school. I was assigned the case of a young woman who had died of a septic abortion. She had aborted herself using slippery elm bark.

I had never heard of slippery elm. A buddy and I went down to skid row, and without too much difficulty, purchased some slippery elm bark to use as a visual aid in our presentation. Slippery elm is not sterile, and frequently contains spores of the bacteria that cause gas gangrene. It is called slippery elm because, when it gets wet, it feels slippery. This makes it easier to slide slender pieces through the cervix where they absorb water, expand, dilate the cervix, produce infection and induce abortion. The young woman in our case developed an overwhelming infection. At autopsy she had multiple abscesses throughout her body, in her brain, lungs, liver and abdomen.

I have never forgotten that case.

After I graduated from University of British Columbia medical school in 1962, I went to Chicago, where I served my internship and Ob/Gyn residency at Cook County Hospital. At that time, Cook County had about 3,000 beds, and served a mainly indigent population. If you were really sick, or really poor, or both, Cook County was where you went.

The first month of my internship was spent on Ward 41, the septic obstetrics ward. Yes, it's hard to believe now, but in those days, they had one ward dedicated exclusively to septic complications of pregnancy.

About 90% of the patients were there with complications of septic abortion. The ward had about 40 beds, in addition to extra beds which lined the halls. Each day we admitted between 10-30 septic abortion patients. We had about one death a month, usually from septic shock associated with hemorrhage.

I will never forget the 17-year-old girl lying on a stretcher with 6 feet of small bowel protruding from her vagina. She survived.

I will never forget the jaundiced woman in liver and kidney failure, in septic shock, with very severe anemia, whose life we were unable to save.

Today, in Canada and the U.S., septic shock from illegal abortion is virtually never seen. Like smallpox, it is a "disappeared disease."

I had originally been drawn to obstetrics and gynecology because I loved delivering babies. Abortion was illegal when I trained, so I did not learn how to do abortions in my residency, although I had more than my share of experience looking after illegal abortion complications.

In 1972, a couple of years after the law on abortion was liberalized, I began the practise of obstetrics and gynecology, and joined a three-man group in Vancouver. My practice partners and I believed strongly that a woman should be able to decide for herself if and when to have a baby. We were frequently asked to look after women who needed termination of pregnancy. Although I had done virtually no terminations in my training, I soon learned how. I also learned just how much demand there was for abortion services.

Providing abortion services can be quite stressful. Usually, an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy is the worst trouble the patient has ever been in in her entire life.

I remember one 18-year-old patient who desperately wanted an abortion, but felt she could not confide in her mother, who was a nurse in another Vancouver area hospital. She impressed on me how important it was that her termination remain a secret from her family. In those years, parental consent was required if the patient was less than 19 years old. I obtained the required second opinion from a colleague, and performed an abortion on her.

About two weeks, later I received a phone call from her mother. She asked me directly "Did you do an abortion on my daughter?" Visions of legal suit passed through my mind as I tried to think of how to answer her question. I decided to answer directly and truthfully. I answered with trepidation, "Yes, I did" and started to make mental preparations to call my lawyer. The mother replied: "Thank you, Doctor. Thank God there are people like you around."

Like many of my colleagues, I had been the subject of antiabortion picketing, particularly in the 1980s. I did not like having my office and home picketed, or nails thrown into my driveway, but viewed these picketers as a nuisance, exercising their right of free speech. Being in Canada, I felt I did not have to worry about my physical security.

I had been a medical doctor for 32 years when I was shot at 7:10 a.m., Nov. 8, 1994. For over half my life, I had been providing obstetrical and gynecological care, including abortions. It is still hard for me to understand how someone could think I should be killed for helping women get safe abortions.

I had a very severe gun shot wound to my left thigh. My thigh bone was fractured, large blood vessels severed, and a large amount of my thigh muscles destroyed. I almost died several times from blood loss and multiple other complications. After about two years of physical and emotional rehabilitation, with a great deal of support from my family and the medical community, I was able to resume work on a part-time basis. I was no longer able to deliver babies or perform major gynecological surgery. I had to take security measures, but I continued to work as a gynecologist, including providing abortion services. My life had changed, but my views on choice remained unchanged, and I was continuing to enjoy practicing medicine. I told people that I was shot in the thigh, not in my sense of humour.

Six years after the shooting, on July 11, 2000, shortly after entering the clinic where I had my private office, a young man approached me. There was nothing unusual about his appearance until he suddenly got a vicious look on his face, stabbed me in the left flank area and then ran away.

This could have been a lethal injury, but fortunately no vital organs were seriously involved, and after six days of hospital observation I was able to return home. The physical implications were minor, but the security implications were major. After two murder attempts, all my security advisors concurred that I was at increased risk for another attack.

My family and I had to have some serious discussions about my future. The National Abortion Federation provided me with a very experienced personal security consultant. He moved into our home and lived with us for three days, talked with us, assessed my personality, visited the places that I worked in and gave me security advice. In those three days, he got to know me well. After he finished his evaluation, when I was dropping him off at the airport, his departing words to me were "Gary, you have to go back to work."

About two months after the stabbing, I returned to the practise of medicine, but with added security measures. Since the year 2000, I have restricted my practise exclusively to abortion provision.

These acts of terrorist violence have affected virtually every aspect of my and my family's life. Our lives have changed forever. I must live with security measures that I never dreamed about when I was learning how to deliver babies.

Let me tell you about an abortion patient I looked after recently. She was 18 years old, and 18-19 weeks pregnant. She came from a very strict, religious family. She was an only daughter, and had several brothers. She was East Indian Hindu and her boyfriend was East Indian Muslim, which did not please her parents. She told me if her parents found out she was pregnant she would be disowned and kicked out of the family home. She also told me that her brothers would murder her boyfriend, and I believed her. About an hour after her operation I and my nurse saw her and her boyfriend walking out of the clinic hand in hand, and I said to my nurse, "Look at that. We saved two lives today."

I love my work. I get enormous personal and professional satisfaction out of helping people, and that includes providing safe, comfortable, abortions. The people that I work with are extraordinary, and we all feel that we are doing important work, making a real difference in peoples' lives.

I can take an anxious woman, who is in the biggest trouble she has ever experiences in her life, and by performing a five-minute operation, in comfort and dignity, I can give her back her life.

After an abortion operation, patients frequently say "Thank You Doctor." But abortion is the only operation I know of where they also sometimes say "Thank you for what you do."

I want to tell you one last story that I think epitomizes the satisfaction I get from my privileged work. Some years ago I spoke to a class of University of British Columbia medical students. As I left the classroom, a student followed me out. She said: "Dr. Romalis, you won't remember me, but you did an abortion on me in 1992. I am a secondyear medical student now, and if it weren't for you I wouldn't be here now."
w

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41015
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #234 on: June 03, 2009, 02:08:09 PM »
you could just as easily be a 240 gimmick account you spin others words and leave out pertinent information, never answer questions, and deflect points...

I already agreed with you, abortion is basically murder imho in all cases, that being said i dont think we as ppl should be able to tell a person who had it forced upon them what to do its a horrible decision to have to make i wouldnt wish it upon anyone, when you have consenual sex even if its with birth control you accept the possibility of pregnancy meaning you should own up to your responsibility bc it was not forced upon you.

Now please just please answer one of my questions...

when do you believ life begins and why? this is very pertinent to our conversation.
you think its fair for women to have an abortion but not allow men to walk away? does this sound like equal rights to you?or any of the other questions ive posed to you

You keep harping on this perceived inequity that a man can't walk away.

My question is what kind of man would walk away from his own flesh and blood ....regardless of what the mother did.

It seems like you might have some anger toward women

tu_holmes

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 15922
  • Robot
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #235 on: June 03, 2009, 02:09:04 PM »
Then you should stop saying that this was religious since most religious pro-lifers, to my knowledge, use the same non-religious justifications when making arguments that secular pro-lifers use: "Life begins at conception, therefore abortion is murder", the right to life of the unborn, etc.

Ronald Reagan on abortion
http://www.priestsforlife.org/government/reaganabortionquotes.htm

George W. Bush on abortion
http://www.issues2000.org/2004/George_W__Bush_Abortion.htm

U.S. Senator Sam Brownback
http://www.priestsforlife.org/government/brownback00-04-08abortionconsciencenation.pdf

Besides, even if a person murdered another person saying "in the name of Jesus Christ", it does not follow that Christianity is bad or that Christianity leads to murders since looking at the teachings of Jesus Christ it is perfectly clear that Christianity is all about the complete opposite, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, etc.

No, because I know that it's their religious beliefs that allow them to believe they are doing what's right by killing another human being. Because they are, as another person in this thread said, "protecting the innocent".

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22729
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #236 on: June 03, 2009, 02:09:59 PM »
Why I am an abortion doctor

'I can take a woman, in the biggest trouble she has ever experienced in her life, and by performing a five-minute operation, in comfort and dignity, I can give her back her life'





continuing......"But while she's NOT dead, and her life is NOT in danger, i can KILL an unborn innocent child depriving its right to life."
 :(


tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #237 on: June 03, 2009, 02:17:06 PM »
You keep harping on this perceived inequity that a man can't walk away.

My question is what kind of man would walk away from his own flesh and blood ....regardless of what the mother did.

It seems like you might have some anger toward women
LOL percieved? hahahahahah you really think its fair for a women to have the right to abortion but the man to not?

Weve had this conversation straw i agree a real man would never walk away from their child that being said A REAL WOMEN WOULD NEVER WALK AWAY FROM THEIR CHILD EITHER regardless of the situation...

I have no anger i find it ignorant that ppl are in favor of a womens right to choose but not a mans and see nothing wrong with it. Todays society with womens issues much like with racial issues has had a backlash of ignorant laws due to past behavior and way of thought...today is supposed to be about equality but i guess only when it suits your agenda huh?


24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24455
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #238 on: June 03, 2009, 02:17:28 PM »

continuing......"But while she's NOT dead, and her life is NOT in danger, i can KILL an unborn innocent child depriving its right to life."
 :(



The absence of safe legal medical abortions put's a woman's life in danger.

Most anyone who has worked in the medical field prior to the 1970's will tell you they don't ever want to go back to the way it was.

If you want to put it in so cut n dry a form, ...then yes. A woman's right to control her body trumps that of a fetus
w

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24455
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #239 on: June 03, 2009, 02:20:08 PM »
LOL percieved? hahahahahah you really think its fair for a women to have the right to abortion but the man to not?

When a man can get pregnant, carry a fetus to term, and undergo labour,
...then yes, I fully expect by then, he will have the right to choose.   :)
w

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #240 on: June 03, 2009, 02:20:42 PM »
The absence of safe legal medical abortions put's a woman's life in danger.

Most anyone who has worked in the medical field prior to the 1970's will tell you they don't ever want to go back to the way it was.

If you want to put it in so cut n dry a form, ...then yes. A woman's right to control her body trumps that of a fetus
when the womens body is in danger, if its simply b/c she doesnt want to own up to her responsibilty then no it doesnt.

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #241 on: June 03, 2009, 02:22:17 PM »
When a man can get pregnant, carry a fetus to term, and undergo labour,
...then yes, I fully expect by then, he will have the right to choose.   :)

ignorance just ignorance they carrying of the fetus means little unless the mother health is in danger 9 months gestation doesnt equal to 18 years of child support payment.

Deedee

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5067
  • They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm.
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #242 on: June 03, 2009, 02:25:00 PM »
you could just as easily be a 240 gimmick account you spin others words and leave out pertinent information, never answer questions, and deflect points...

I already agreed with you, abortion is basically murder imho in all cases, that being said i dont think we as ppl should be able to tell a person who had it forced upon them what to do its a horrible decision to have to make i wouldnt wish it upon anyone, when you have consenual sex even if its with birth control you accept the possibility of pregnancy meaning you should own up to your responsibility bc it was not forced upon you.

Now please just please answer one of my questions...

when do you believ life begins and why? this is very pertinent to our conversation.
you think its fair for women to have an abortion but not allow men to walk away? does this sound like equal rights to you?
or any of the other questions ive posed to you

you could just as easily be a 240 gimmick account you spin others words and leave out pertinent information, never answer questions, and deflect points...

I already agreed with you, abortion is basically murder imho in all cases, that being said i dont think we as ppl should be able to tell a person who had it forced upon them what to do its a horrible decision to have to make i wouldnt wish it upon anyone, when you have consenual sex even if its with birth control you accept the possibility of pregnancy meaning you should own up to your responsibility bc it was not forced upon you.

Now please just please answer one of my questions...

when do you believ life begins and why? this is very pertinent to our conversation.
you think its fair for women to have an abortion but not allow men to walk away? does this sound like equal rights to you?
or any of the other questions ive posed to you

That's easy. I believe, as it is written in the old books, that life begins with breath. Before mother and child are deemed okay, there's a possibility either way that one or both could die, and the already living take preference. I believe that the possibility of life is beyond beautiful when both want it, but that it is a horrific nothingness when it's an unwanted possibility in the early stages. I also know that the only people having late stages abortions are those who would die, or the child is so badly deformed she/he can't survive beyond a few hours or days, or will suffer such a painful death (like tay sacs children) that it isn't humane to make parents go through that.

I also know that pregnancy isn't just a poo-poo thing. A lot can happen, and before modern medicine, even the last twenty years has made a difference.

Anyhow you're asking me this. But mostly abortion came into use because men didn't want to take accept responsibility for their children in the fiftes, those who were the result of such unions were considered bastard children and women couldn't get a loan to save their lives and make a living for their illegitimate children and themselves. So, abortion. Of course there are men who take their responsibilities seriously, and these stores end well. Or with a bunch of fighting about how one manipulated the other, like my family, but so far, none of us have had abortions. All the siblings said we didn't want to be like our parents.

Also, because we aren't a welfare state, you have to take care of the children you birth. So no walking away. Does that work for the poor. No. It works for the rich and the middle class as always.

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24455
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #243 on: June 03, 2009, 02:26:04 PM »
ignorance just ignorance they carrying of the fetus means little unless the mother health is in danger 9 months gestation doesnt equal to 18 years of child support payment.

You say that as if during those 18 years the mother isn't doing a thing.  :-\

Call me when you get a uterus, ...until then... STFU!  Please & Thank You!  :)
w

tu_holmes

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 15922
  • Robot
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #244 on: June 03, 2009, 02:26:54 PM »
ignorance just ignorance they carrying of the fetus means little unless the mother health is in danger 9 months gestation doesnt equal to 18 years of child support payment.

I'm with Tony on his points about responsibility.

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #245 on: June 03, 2009, 02:30:57 PM »
You say that as if during those 18 years the mother isn't doing a thing.  :-\

Call me when you get a uterus, ...until then... STFU!  Please & Thank You!  :)
doesnt matter she choose to do those things during the 18 years the man may not have see the difference?

thats fine but please dont ever bitch about glass ceilings, unequal pay for the same job, unchilvarous men, sexual stereotypes etc...again ignorance fuking ignorance  ::)

bears

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2195
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #246 on: June 03, 2009, 02:32:16 PM »
When a man can get pregnant, carry a fetus to term, and undergo labour,
...then yes, I fully expect by then, he will have the right to choose.   :)


spoken like a man who is not a father.  as a father who embraces the responsibility of my child and any life that i do create,  i cant help but to be a little offended by that statement.  if my wife (and this would NEVER happen) was pregnant and she decided that she didnt want to bother with another baby and wanted to get an abortion you're god damn right i have a say in that.  thats OUR baby.  not hers.  and as a man i have a responsibility to the life that i created.  yes she bears the child but it takes both of us to raise the child.  you're speaking like a man who has simply accepted the fact that men are not going to accept responsibility for the lives that they create.  i dont necessarily disagree with your decision to be pro choice i disagree with the mindset that you have in coming to your decision.

Deedee

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5067
  • They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm.
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #247 on: June 03, 2009, 02:32:54 PM »
ignorance just ignorance they carrying of the fetus means little unless the mother health is in danger 9 months gestation doesnt equal to 18 years of child support payment.

No. No one wants to pay for your living progeny. Libs aren't really interested in paying for the endless children repub fools make. And there are plenty of them.

We just kind of realize that stupid is as stupid procreates and there will always be the repub idiots who claim everyone else is glomming off the system when they are right there. They just assume their opinions make them better. Or that it doesn't count because they listen to rush. Or have babies that they give up. But they're just as stupid and living off the country's dime.

Honestly dude, your grammar is getting worse and worse. Go outside before you explode.

tu_holmes

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 15922
  • Robot
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #248 on: June 03, 2009, 02:34:52 PM »
 thats OUR baby.  not hers.  and as a man i have a responsibility to the life that i created.

Unfortunately not... It's hers until it's actually in the world... Then it's "ours".

Until someone has to pay for it, it's not a man's responsibility actually.

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #249 on: June 03, 2009, 02:36:10 PM »
That's easy. I believe, as it is written in the old books, that life begins with breath. Before mother and child are deemed okay, there's a possibility either way that one or both could die, and the already living take preference. I believe that the possibility of life is beyond beautiful when both want it, but that it is a horrific nothingness when it's an unwanted possibility in the early stages. I also know that the only people having late stages abortions are those who would die, or the child is so badly deformed she/he can't survive beyond a few hours or days, or will suffer such a painful death (like tay sacs children) that it isn't humane to make parents go through that.

I also know that pregnancy isn't just a poo-poo thing. A lot can happen, and before modern medicine, even the last twenty years has made a difference.

Anyhow you're asking me this. But mostly abortion came into use because men didn't want to take accept responsibility for their children in the fiftes, those who were the result of such unions were considered bastard children and women couldn't get a loan to save their lives and make a living for their illegitimate children and themselves. So, abortion. Of course there are men who take their responsibilities seriously, and these stores end well. Or with a bunch of fighting about how one manipulated the other, like my family, but so far, none of us have had abortions. All the siblings said we didn't want to be like our parents.

Also, because we aren't a welfare state, you have to take care of the children you birth. So no walking away. Does that work for the poor. No. It works for the rich and the middle class as always.
you have to know dee that many if not most of abortions that take place are not b/c the mothers health is in jeopardy, ive already said if the mothers health is in jeopardy then abortion is a viable option. Abortion may have come about for one reason or another, like straw said what kind of man would walk away from the child regardless of what the women did? well what kind of women would abort a child regardless of what a man did? sorry to hear about your folks you seem like you turned out good...there are ways to prevent pregnancy and these ways are not just for the rich you dont get to run from your responsibilities.