Author Topic: Conservative Cap & Trade figures: "Simplistic and Misleading"  (Read 694 times)

Al Doggity

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7286
  • Old School Gemini
"Simplistic and Misleading"

How do Republicans figure American households will be out $3,100? The figure is based in part on a 2007 study by the MIT Joint Program on the Science and Policy of Global Change. The study estimated that a cap-and-trade market for 2015 would be worth $366 billion in revenue. Republicans, figuring that that amount would be passed from the energy companies to consumers, calculated the average cost per household by dividing $366 billion by 117 million households (a population of 300 million divided into households of 2.56 persons) to get $3,128, or roughly $3,100.

However, one of the authors of the MIT study disputes that figure.

In a letter sent to House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) on April 1, John Reilly, associate director for research at the MIT Joint Program on the Science and Policy of Global Change, said that the study he coauthored had "been misrepresented in recent press releases distributed by the National Republican Congressional Committee." He said the GOP's calculation fails to account for Obama's stated intent to provide rebates to consumers to cushion the effect of increased prices: "[M]any of the proposals currently being considered by Congress and as proposed by the Administration have been designed to offset the energy cost impacts on middle and lower income households and so it is simplistic and misleading to only look at the impact on energy prices of these proposals as a measure of their impact on the average household."

Reilly at first estimated the average annual cost of implementing a cap-and-trade program to each household to be about $340, but he later wrote a follow-up letter to Boehner on April 14 correcting what he said was an error in his calculations and increasing his estimate to about $800. He said his corrected estimate "includes the direct effects of higher energy prices, the cost of measures to reduce energy use, the higher price of goods that are produced using energy, and impacts on wages and returns on capital."

Despite Reilly's objections, Republicans continue to use the $3,100 figure. An April 2 "Leader Alert" on the House Republican Leader's Web site reads: "An MIT professor has questions about the $3,100 figure but his letter makes assumptions that are factually inaccurate." Boehner disputes Reilly's assumption that revenue from a cap-and-trade program would be returned to households: "[W]e all know that Democrats have no intention of using a cap-and-trade system to deliver rebates to consumers; they want the tax revenue to fund more government spending."
________________________ ________________________ _______-

So, $800 is a lot of money but it's a lot less than $3100. And this figure includes indirect costs, as well. Certain other factors could bring this figure down to $98/household. Any increase is bad, I can understand that, but some of the doomsday soothsaying has been a little over the top.

240 is Back

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 102387
  • Complete website for only $300- www.300website.com
Re: Conservative Cap & Trade figures: "Simplistic and Misleading"
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2009, 07:49:48 AM »
I tend to believe an MIT professor with actual data here.... than John Boehner (who coincidentally screams about everything Obama does).

I think the MIT professor is probably correct with the numebrs, and I think John Boehner is just stretching the truth to scare people.

Soul Crusher

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 39839
  • Doesnt lie about lifting.
Re: Conservative Cap & Trade figures: "Simplistic and Misleading"
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2009, 08:08:46 AM »
I tend to believe an MIT professor with actual data here.... than John Boehner (who coincidentally screams about everything Obama does).

I think the MIT professor is probably correct with the numebrs, and I think John Boehner is just stretching the truth to scare people.

Did you read my thread yesterday????  Those figures came from the congessional budget office. 


BM OUT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8229
  • Getbig!
Re: Conservative Cap & Trade figures: "Simplistic and Misleading"
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2009, 08:27:19 AM »
What a load of crap.Thats an average of what it will cost.However,if you make over 45,000 a year YOU WILL PAY 3,000 a year.If you make less then you will pay less.This is typical Obama.Soak those that actually produce and reward those that are failures.

Soul Crusher

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 39839
  • Doesnt lie about lifting.
Re: Conservative Cap & Trade figures: "Simplistic and Misleading"
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2009, 08:32:57 AM »
In Germany where they have this, peoples electric bills went up by around 25% from what I understand.  I have to check though.

Al Doggity

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7286
  • Old School Gemini
Re: Conservative Cap & Trade figures: "Simplistic and Misleading"
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2009, 08:59:58 AM »
Did you read my thread yesterday????  Those figures came from the congessional budget office. 



No, the figures you posted yesterday came from THIS study. The study I posted in this thread.

Soul Crusher

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 39839
  • Doesnt lie about lifting.
Re: Conservative Cap & Trade figures: "Simplistic and Misleading"
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2009, 09:05:02 AM »
No, the figures you posted yesterday came from THIS study. The study I posted in this thread.


The professor from MIT revised his statements by the way an agreed with Boehner, as does the CBO. 

You want to believe Obama and the Democrats pushing this garbage, fine, thats your perogative, but he has already shown himself awful with numbers, estimates, approximations, and facts.

Like I said, go see what the impact was in Europe was when they imposed this nonsense.  Highers costs and taxes, rampant fraud and abuse, AND NO IMPROVEMENT C02 EMMISIONS. 

This whole scheme is going to make traders rich, customers poorer, and nothing for the environment.

Even Ralph Nader said this this is a scam. 

Kazan

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6799
  • Sic vis pacem, parabellum
Re: Conservative Cap & Trade figures: "Simplistic and Misleading"
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2009, 10:00:31 AM »
$800, $3100 who cares, the government is sticking it to the average American once again. There is no need for this crap other than Obama wants it. How else is he going to fund all these new initiatives?

What is simplistic and misleading is there always has to be a crisis, global warming or whatever. There is always some catastrophy just over the horizon and if we don't act now......

Same shit different day, keep us "scared" or worried about some diversion, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. All the while the US government sells the average America down the river. You don't see politicans hurting for money or lacking anything, hell lets have party night every wednesday at the white house. Don't worry the dumbass tax payer will pick up the bill. Maybe Obama and Binden can run down to the local burger shop to get lunch, whoops there's another 50 grand gone. Or maybe we can have date night in New York whats another 50 grand, oh the plane, only the dumbass American public needs to conserve and worry about the trumped up crap known as global warming.

The sad thing is our elected officials think the average American is a moron, and they can basically do whatever the hell they want as long as they can give a good speech, starting to look like they are right  :'(
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Al Doggity

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7286
  • Old School Gemini
Re: Conservative Cap & Trade figures: "Simplistic and Misleading"
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2009, 10:05:09 AM »
The professor from MIT revised his statements by the way an agreed with Boehner, as does the CBO. 

You want to believe Obama and the Democrats pushing this garbage, fine, thats your perogative, but he has already shown himself awful with numbers, estimates, approximations, and facts.

Like I said, go see what the impact was in Europe was when they imposed this nonsense.  Highers costs and taxes, rampant fraud and abuse, AND NO IMPROVEMENT C02 EMMISIONS. 

This whole scheme is going to make traders rich, customers poorer, and nothing for the environment.

Even Ralph Nader said this this is a scam. 

No. The MIT professor did revise his numbers upward, but they were still far lower than the inaccurate numbers Boehner used.

The CBO's estimate was actually much lower than the estimate from MIT.

2ND COMING

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6307
  • Might is right.
Re: Conservative Cap & Trade figures: "Simplistic and Misleading"
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2009, 10:07:43 AM »
how else did you guys think we were gonna pay down our debt?

This is the dems way of taxing the shit out of us but in their eyes its justifiable.

Al Doggity

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7286
  • Old School Gemini
Re: Conservative Cap & Trade figures: "Simplistic and Misleading"
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2009, 10:21:51 AM »
The professor from MIT revised his statements by the way an agreed with Boehner, as does the CBO. 

You want to believe Obama and the Democrats pushing this garbage, fine, thats your perogative, but he has already shown himself awful with numbers, estimates, approximations, and facts.

Like I said, go see what the impact was in Europe was when they imposed this nonsense.  Highers costs and taxes, rampant fraud and abuse, AND NO IMPROVEMENT C02 EMMISIONS. 

This whole scheme is going to make traders rich, customers poorer, and nothing for the environment.

Even Ralph Nader said this this is a scam. 

Nader supports the idea, just not in it's current state. He wants a flat-out carbon tax.

Whether this plan will work remains to be seen, but there are some real differences between what's on the table here and what went down in Europe. The biggest problem with the European program was that Union nations tried to prop up their own industries by issuing too many carbon credits to ensure that they remained competitive. The value of credits collapsed as a result. The same dynamics probably won't show  up here.

GigantorX

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6371
  • GetBig's A-Team is the Light of Truth!
Re: Conservative Cap & Trade figures: "Simplistic and Misleading"
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2009, 10:24:28 AM »
Nader supports the idea, just not in it's current state. He wants a flat-out carbon tax.

Whether this plan will work remains to be seen, but there are some real differences between what's on the table here and what went down in Europe. The biggest problem with the European program was that Union nations tried to prop up their own industries by issuing too many carbon credits to ensure that they remained competitive. The value of credits collapsed as a result. The same dynamics probably won't show  up here.

How can you be sure? We have already seen the hubris in this administration and how heavy handed its been concerning rule of law and such. This carbon tax would allow this Admin. to favor it's new "green" industries. This reeks of favoritism and the govt. picking winners and losers through industrial policy.

Just another Trojan Horse from a President who has brought zero change or hope to the table.

shootfighter1

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5674
  • Competitor- NABBA Nationals Overall Champ
Re: Conservative Cap & Trade figures: "Simplistic and Misleading"
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2009, 10:32:41 AM »
Just to be clear, this will raise taxes on individuals making $23,000 or more and families making $46,000 or more.  Nice way to stick it to pretty much everyone who has a non-minimum wage job.

Also, with cap & trade, there will be administrative costs, more committees, oversight, enforcement costs, legal costs and some new czar.
Whether the cost is $1000 per household or $3100 per household, you don't do this during a recession and you don't handicap American businesses in the world market.