Author Topic: Democrat health bill to cost over 1 Trillion $$$ and have 600 bill. tax hike!  (Read 2696 times)

Soul Crusher

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House Health-Care Bill to Include $600 Billion in Tax Increases
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By Laura Litvan

June 12 (Bloomberg) -- Health-care overhaul legislation being drafted by House Democrats will include $600 billion in tax increases and $400 billion in cuts to Medicare and Medicaid, Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charles Rangel said.

Democrats will work on the bill’s details next week as they struggle through “what kind of heartburn” it will cause to agree on how to pay for revamping the health-care system, Rangel, a New York Democrat, said today. He also said the measure’s cost will reach beyond the $634 billion President Barack Obama proposed in his budget request to Congress as a down payment for the policy changes.

Asked whether the cost of a health-care overhaul would be more than $1 trillion, Rangel said, “the answer is yes.”

House Democrats plan to release their legislation next week. Obama has made a health-care overhaul a top domestic priority and is working with Congress to get legislation to his desk by October.

Democrats in the House and Senate are working on legislation that would require all Americans to have health insurance, prohibit insurers from refusing to cover pre-existing conditions and place other restrictions on the industry.

The legislation would establish online exchanges for individuals to purchase insurance and would require employers to provide health benefits to workers or pay a penalty. Some Democrats also are backing creation of a government-run program to expand coverage to the uninsured. The issue is the subject of bipartisan negotiations with Republican opponents.

To contact the reporter on this story: Laura Litvan in Washington at llitvan@bloomberg.net

Last Updated: June 12, 2009 14:35 EDT
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I'm speechless.  This Congress and WH are the most reckless in history.

Anyone who still complains over Bush needs to STFU.

Trillion dollars in new spending????   

The True Adonis

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Whats the republican healthcare plan.  Can you link me?

Soul Crusher

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Whats the republican healthcare plan.  Can you link me?

We dont need a new govt program, we need to get the govt out of health care as it is. 

Soul Crusher

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Whats the republican healthcare plan.  Can you link me?

TA - let me ask you something:

How much do you currently pay for your health coverage? 

GigantorX

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Question, possibly rhetorical.

Isn't the Government already involved in health-care to a tune of 50%?

How is that working out for us?

The True Adonis

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We dont need a new govt program, we need to get the govt out of health care as it is. 

Why?  So Insurance companies can charge whatever they want and behave any way they want?  

I used to work for a Health Insurance Company a few years back, United Health Care which is a MAJOR provider in the United States  along with "Andy Griffin" who posts on this board.  The sole objective was to MAKE money and how do Insurance companies do that?  By denying coverage and charging Premiums and signing up Small Business and Corporations in large pools with few options.


I know firsthand how crooked the entire industry is.  We were basically taught to deny as much coverage as we can and anyone appealing would have to go through so many hoops, they would just give up.  In fact, we were still using MS-DOS to back up records.

Ask "Andy Griffin" on here about it.  He can tell you the horror stories as can I.


The True Adonis

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Question, possibly rhetorical.

Isn't the Government already involved in health-care to a tune of 50%?

How is that working out for us?

No.  The government has done nothing other than for seniors and for Children and the military.

GigantorX

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Why?  So Insurance companies can charge whatever they want and behave any way they want?  

I used to work for a Health Insurance Company a few years back, United Health Care which is a MAJOR provider in the United States  along with "Andy Griffin" who posts on this board.  The sole objective was to MAKE money and how do Insurance companies do that?  By denying coverage and charging Premiums and signing up Small Business and Corporations in large pools with few options.


I know firsthand how crooked the entire industry is.  We were basically taught to deny as much coverage as we can and anyone appealing would have to go through so many hoops, they would just give up.  In fact, we were still using MS-DOS to back up records.

Ask "Andy Griffin" on here about it.  He can tell you the horror stories as can I.



Now we are on to something here.

You apparently have an inside view as to how the Insurance Companies run their scams and pyramid schemes. I have moderate knowledge in this area so.....

What would you suggest be changed, either by law or mandate or other such things.

What would work best AND be reasonable.

MB

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Remove the government and insurance companies from health care.  Both get in the way of affordability.   

The True Adonis

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Now we are on to something here.

You apparently have an inside view as to how the Insurance Companies run their scams and pyramid schemes. I have moderate knowledge in this area so.....

What would you suggest be changed, either by law or mandate or other such things.

What would work best AND be reasonable.
I support single-payer as the number one choice and have the ability for people to purchase Private Insurance if they feel like wasting money.


I also like Obama`s proposal where people can keep what they have if they like it, along with a government option that is single-payer.

The True Adonis

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Personally, I am opposed to Insurance companies.  They are in the business of making a profit, not providing healthcare.

They wouldn`t be in business if they were spending more money than they are making, which they certainly are.


Healtcare should be a fundamental right, not a privilege.


Also, doctors cannot stand to deal with Insurance companies.  They usually give up too when they are trying to collect money for a procedure.  The Insurance companies do not work in favor of physicians at all and frustrate them to no end.

Soul Crusher

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I support single-payer as the number one choice and have the ability for people to purchase Private Insurance if they feel like wasting money.


I also like Obama`s proposal where people can keep what they have if they like it, along with a government option that is single-payer.

Here is my problem TA - without increasing the pool of medical doctors currently in practice, how are we possibly going to accomodate 40 million new people in the system without rationing health care?

The True Adonis

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Here is my problem TA - without increasing the pool of medical doctors currently in practice, how are we possibly going to accomodate 40 million new people in the system without rationing health care?

Healthcare is currently rationed more so than any other Industrialized Country.  Here is what I mean:


This is a common notion, often used as a put-down for those countries with national health systems without full coverage for every conceivable health care service (e.g., chronic renal dialysis for elderly patients, cosmetic surgery). This myth flourishes while the prevailing public attitude (fueled by powerful stakeholders in the present system) is outright denial that rationing is common, necessary, or moral. Consider these examples of ways in which health care services are rationed in everyday practice:

Either by self-referral or through a gatekeeper, sick HMO patients have about twice as much difficulty in seeking needed care as do healthy patients in HMOs, PPOs (preferred provider organizations), or point-of-service programs.
Many managed mental health programs have overly restrictive admission policies for detoxification, such as requiring delirium tremens to occur before hospital admission is approved.
Comparative rates of preventable hospitalization between those in affluent and poor zip codes are much higher in U.S. cities than in Canadian cities (e.g., more than twice as prevalent in San Francisco and New York than in Ottawa or Toronto).
Use of essential drugs decreased by 9 percent in elderly persons and by 14 percent in welfare recipients after cost-sharing was introduced, resulting in a doubling of the rates of serious adverse reactions in both groups.
It is an often overlooked given that our market-based health care economy implicitly denies services to those who can’t pay for them. Another type of rationing—denial of services to those who can pay for them—also is common (and highly contentious). Thus, there is a growing field of litigation challenging the prerogatives of HMOs to deny services. Some may be inappropriate denials, while others (e.g., coverage of autologous bone marrow transplants for women with metastatic breast cancer) may be well grounded in evidence-based clinical science. What is typically missing in public attitudes in the United States, however, is a societal (vs. individual) perspective on what services can be made available to those who can pay without compromising basic health services for those who cannot.

Soul Crusher

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Ok, fair point. 

But who is going to set the fee schdeules and payments to the providers themselves?

drkaje

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It would cost at least 3 times that, LOL!

People thinking that universal health care is doable without global changes in US foreign and domestic policies are either stupid or dumb. Take your pick.

People have short memories, otherwise they'd be pointing the finger at Al Gore for casting the tie-breaking vote against tort reform. You can't have universal healthcare without tort reform. The taxpayers will ultimately end up footing or subsidizing malpractice insurance and the system would go bankrupt paying claims unless participating doctors were covered under the same umbrella as companies who produce immunizations.

Another fact is that Medicaid, Medicare, Tricare, and anything else the Govt has a hand in tend to reimburse so slowly that practices couldn't afford to stay open while waiting to get paid.

The True Adonis

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Ok, fair point. 

But who is going to set the fee schdeules and payments to the providers themselves?

They are set pretty poorly now by "Reasonable and Customary" procedures.

Check out this article in the New York Times.  This is the company that "Andy Griffin" and I worked for at the same time.  This sheds some light on how prices are currently determined.  Tell me what you think of the current system.  The Insurance companies are holding doctors hostage as we speak, dictating what they can charge based on what the Private Insurance will pay or thinks the operation is worth.

Its pretty sick.



 
Published: January 16, 2009
Patients who feel ripped off whenever they use a doctor outside their insurance company’s network should benefit from two important new agreements.




New York State’s attorney general, Andrew Cuomo, and UnitedHealth Group, one of the nation’s largest health insurers, have agreed to set up a new system for calculating out-of-network payments.

UnitedHealth also has agreed to pay $350 million to settle class-action lawsuits brought by the American Medical Association and other groups on behalf of patients and doctors who claimed to be shortchanged for services provided out of network. Before approving the settlement, the courts will have to decide if the amounts agreed to are enough.

Typically, when patients use non-network doctors, their insurance company agrees to pay 70 percent to 80 percent of the “reasonable and customary” charges for a given medical service in the same geographic area. If the doctor’s bill is higher than that rate, the patient must make up the difference or the doctor must settle for less.

The rub comes in defining what is reasonable and customary.

That calculation for most of the industry is made by a company called Ingenix, which conveniently is owned by UnitedHealth. The whole system is rendered suspect by an obvious conflict of interest: If Ingenix pegs the customary rates low, it keeps insurance reimbursements low and shifts more of the cost to the patient.

Investigators for Mr. Cuomo contend that UnitedHealth and Ingenix have been manipulating the data through a variety of stratagems to keep the customary rate calculation low — and the insurance payments low.

Based on their own data collection and calculations, the investigators estimated that insurers have systematically underpaid New Yorkers for medical services by 10 percent to 28 percent, depending on where they lived.

UnitedHealth neither admits nor denies any wrongdoing, but the company does acknowledge the inherent conflict of interest and is paying substantially to put the issue to rest.

As a result of the agreement, future reimbursements should be less subject to manipulation and a lot more transparent. UnitedHealth is planning to close its Ingenix databases and shift responsibility to an independent nonprofit organization — possibly a university-level school of public health — that will be the sole arbiter of data collection and calculation methodologies.

UnitedHealth will contribute $50 million to help get the new system operating. Aetna has separately agreed to contribute $20 million. Both UnitedHealth and Aetna will use the new database.

The new organization will also create a Web site where consumers around the country can find out the prevailing charges for out-of-network medical services in their area. That would allow them to determine in advance what their insurance company will pay — and make it easier to challenge doctors’ charges that appear excessively high.

We urge other big insurers to contribute to this new organization and use the new database. The potentially corrupting influence of industry financing should be mitigated by putting Mr. Cuomo in charge and possibly setting up an endowment to keep the new organization independent.

New York’s attorney general deserves thanks for forcing the industry to adopt a fairer and more transparent system for determining out-of-network reimbursements. It has been a long time coming.

The True Adonis

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Pretty messed up eh?

My solution would be a non-profit panel, University based  ;), who uses total transparency based on statistical evidence, area demographics along with medical technological data to determine doctor compensation from a baseline standpoint.


Soul Crusher

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Pretty messed up eh?

My solution would be a non-profit panel, University based  ;), who uses total transparency based on statistical evidence, area demographics along with medical technological data to determine doctor compensation from a baseline standpoint.

I also think that the cost of medical school needs to be dealt with if doctors are going to be asked to make $$$ or see more patients within the same time frame. 

headhuntersix

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I have tricare..let me tell u how it works. If u go to a military hospital its fine...free phara etc. Now u don't always get the care that covers everything so they can send u to a local doctor who is a specialist. That guy has to already take tricare but they usually find someone. Many small posts will send u to a local doc after u've seen a military of DOD PA/MD contractor. If ur stationed away from a military base as I was in late 04/05, u have to use a local doctor like any other insurance. However that guy has to take tricare already and many don't, away from military bases. Its very hard to find a Tricare provider. Tricare will only pay what it wants and the Doctor either deals with it, or decides not to take it. Uncle Sam will adopt this with everybody else. If u want Bob the Heart Surgeon to fix u...Bob better take Barrycare or ur fucked, especially if Bob is the best at it, or has a new procedure. Bottom line, they will have to raise taxes. All these games the insurance companies play, can be fixed without this complete waste of money.
L

The True Adonis

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I have tricare..let me tell u how it works. If u go to a military hospital its fine...free phara etc. Now u don't always get the care that covers everything so they can send u to a local doctor who is a specialist. That guy has to already take tricare but they usually find someone. Many small posts will send u to a local doc after u've seen a military of DOD PA/MD contractor. If ur stationed away from a military base as I was in late 04/05, u have to use a local doctor like any other insurance. However that guy has to take tricare already and many don't, away from military bases. Its very hard to find a Tricare provider. Tricare will only pay what it wants and the Doctor either deals with it, or decides not to take it. Uncle Sam will adopt this with everybody else. If u want Bob the Heart Surgeon to fix u...Bob better take Barrycare or ur fucked, especially if Bob is the best at it, or has a new procedure. Bottom line, they will have to raise taxes. All these games the insurance companies play, can be fixed without this complete waste of money.

No they can`t.  Insurance companies don`t want to be fixed, nor can the problems be fixed.

Tricare by law should be accepted by ANY Physician and this has been proposed.  Guess who shot it down?  Republicans with the aid of the Private Insurance companies.

THAT is the reason why all doctors cannot or do not accept Tricare.  The Insurance companies PAY doctors to get exclusivity by contract that they can only accept their plan and not others.

So if a United Healthcare Subscribing doctor is under contract with United Healthcare, they cannot take Tricare or any other plan.  This puts the doctor at a position to ration and limit care.


Tricare has been proposed to be accepted BY ALL Physicians but the Republicans and the Private Insurance companies have shot this down.  There is your rationing.

headhuntersix

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Ok...link please.
L

The True Adonis

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The True Adonis

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Ok...link please.

I can post all the bills regarding Tricare legislation.  It will take me a while to highlight what is relevant.

headhuntersix

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The tricare bill.......stop tapdancing. The Dems are trying to kill TriCare for life...
L

The True Adonis

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The tricare bill.......stop tapdancing. The Dems are trying to kill TriCare for life...
Nope.

Durbin:

 In The Face Of Republican Obstruction, Democrats Are Putting The American People First
Washington, DC—As we look ahead to the Fourth of July holiday, Republicans are continuing their record of obstruction by blocking issues of importance to working Americans, seniors and our men and women in uniform. Last week, Democrats worked to pass legislation to help improve Medicare and TRICARE for millions of seniors and military families. Republicans again blocked this important legislation. Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois will deliver this week’s Democratic Radio Address and discuss what Democrats are doing to help our seniors and military families in the face of unprecedented Republican obstruction:

The text of the radio address, as delivered, is below:

Hello, this is Senator Dick Durbin from Illinois.

More than 230 years ago, John Adams – one of the architects of America’s independence – wrote a letter describing the human cost of establishing our new nation – a nation unlike any the world had ever seen – a nation dedicated to freedom.

The letter was sent to his wife, Abigail.  Two lines near the end of that letter speak directly to us.

He wrote, “Posterity! You will never know how much it cost the present generation to preserve your freedom.”

“I hope,” he added, “you will make good use of it.”

On this Fourth of July weekend, as we celebrate our nation’s independence, we can be proud that the generations of Americans who followed John Adams have preserved -- and expanded -- our heritage of freedom.

Today, women and African Americans can not only vote for President, they can run for President.  That is progress that would have astonished John – and maybe even Abigail – Adams.

But there is another change in America that would trouble our Founders greatly if they could see it -- that is the political gridlock today in Washington.

With gasoline at $4 a gallon and rising … an energy crisis … a global warming crisis … our economy in trouble … our military stretched thin … and more Americans every week losing their jobs, their homes, their pensions and their health care, America must change course.

But in the Senate, the Senate Republican leadership is determined to stop efforts to bring change to Washington. They have now shattered the record for the highest number of filibusters in history. Filibusters of course are the age-old procedural obstacles used to slow down or stop the Senate from debating and voting. Now before this Congress the record was 57 filibusters in a two year period of time. This Republican leadership has waged 78 filibusters and we still have six months to go.

Just last month, they blocked bills to combat global warming, halt the mortgage meltdown and bring down fuel prices.  Last week, Republican Senators blocked a bill  protecting the ability of many Medicare beneficiaries to see the doctor of their choice. The bill would have cancelled a 10.6 percent cut in Medicare payments to doctors.

That cut, which took effect on July 1st, could force many doctors to stop seeing new Medicare patients.

But it’s not just the seniors who will suffer. Military families are also at risk because of this Republican filibuster.

Payments under TRICARE, the health care plan for active-duty and retired military members and their families, are tied directly to Medicare payment rates.

Now in my state of Illinois, nearly 156,000 TRICARE patients could be hurt by the Medicare cuts.  All told, 8.9 million veterans and military personnel nationwide face reduced medical services because of these cuts.

And while Medicare and TRICARE payments to doctors are being cut, the Bush Administration is giving insurance companies that offer private “Medicare Advantage” plans a 3.6 percent raise.

These private “Medicare Advantage” plans – created in 2003 when the Republicans controlled Congress -- cost taxpayers, an average of 13 percent more than regular Medicare.

According to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, private insurers will reap $150 billion in overpayments over the next decade – money we could better use to improve Medicare and cover some of the 47 million Americans who are uninsured. Instead, much of that money is going to advertising, overhead, big salaries for insurance company CEOs, big dividends for their stockholders.


There will be a lot of talk about patriotism over this Fourth of July weekend and many Senators will rightfully praise our military. But true patriotism means honoring the men and women in uniform who defend our freedoms -- not just with words and flag lapel pins, but with actions befitting their great sacrifices.

That’s why the Veterans of Foreign Wars … the Military Officers Association … the National Guard Association …  the National Military Family Association … the Military Order of the Purple Heart and more than two dozen other organizations representing millions of active-duty military members, veterans, and military families and survivors … all oppose the Medicare and TRICARE payment cuts.

House Democrats and Republicans have already come together with a strong bipartisan vote to block these cuts.  It’s time for the Republican Senators who are filibustering this measure to put our seniors and our military families ahead of private insurance companies and let the Senate pass this bill as soon as possible.

I’m Dick Durbin from Illinois.  Have a happy Fourth of July weekend and thanks for listening.