No cardio needed for weightloss just correct calorie manipulation ?

[Tre]

True.

Also, cardio makes you burn MUCH more fat than simply restricting calories. Restrictign calories only will lead to burning muscle and fat, whereas a high protein diet, amino acid supplementation AND cardio will lead to more fatloss.

What about those of us (chumps) who are natural and need to gain more muscle while also trimming the fat?  The old school of thought has always been to reduce/eliminate cardio when 'bulking' (if you wanna call it that).  Even with the slower metabolism now that I'm older, it's still very hard for me to build muscle (defective testosterone, I guess), so I'm concerned about bringing the cardio back in, even though I'd like to be leaner for summer.  I just don't feel I have enough lean muscle to be able to pull off 'sexy' if I work my hardest to trim the fat.

Advice?

[Deicide]

Layne Norton says you can't build muscle and lose fat at the same time, i think he knows his shit alot better than you guys, sorry no offence intended.

Building muscle dosen't happen in a matter of hours donkey, it's atleast a 2-3 day period after the muscle has been trained. The body won't use calories to build additional muscle tissue when your in a caloric defecit.

Makes sense; they are completely different metabolic processes. One require more calories than maintenance, the other less.

[wavelength]

Layne Norton says you can't build muscle and lose fat at the same time, i think he knows his shit alot better than you guys, sorry no offence intended.

Where does he say that?
I did build muscle on my current cut, so obviously it's possible.

[Tre]

Layne Norton says you can't build muscle and lose fat at the same time, i think he knows his shit alot better than you guys, sorry no offence intended.

Building muscle dosen't happen in a matter of hours donkey, it's atleast a 2-3 day period after the muscle has been trained. The body won't use calories to build additional muscle tissue when your in a caloric defecit.

With all due respect to Layne, we've been taught for years that building lean muscle will increase the body's fat-burning capabilities when the body is at rest.  This is why resistance training and not-so-restrictive diets (in terms of total caloric) are often prescribed for even very obese people looking to reduce their bodyfat. 

Is he saying that way of thinking is wrong? 

[wavelength]

With all due respect to Layne, we've been taught for years that building lean muscle will increase the body's fat-burning capabilities when the body is at rest.  This is why resistance training and not-so-restrictive diets (in terms of total caloric) are often prescribed for even very obese people looking to reduce their bodyfat. 
Is he saying that way of thinking is wrong? 

That's a different topic though. You could still get to a different body composition using a bulk - cut method first.
In any case, increasing your muscle mass will not increase the body's fat-burning capabilities significantly when the total weight is the same in the end.

A person weighing 200lbs with 10% BF will not have significantly better fat-burning capabilities than a person weighing 200lbs with 30% BF. There is a slight difference but it's insignificant.

[Method101]

Where does he say that?
I did build muscle on my current cut, so obviously it's possible.

it's an illusion.
It is not possible, he has said many times in articles/in forum posts, as a natural when you start dieting you are stuck with the mass you have and just have to try and retain as much as possible.

[wavelength]

it's an illusion.
It is not possible, he has said many times in articles/in forum posts, as a natural when you start dieting you are stuck with the mass you have and just have to try and retain as much as possible.

Well I was coming from a layoff and my rate of weight loss was very low. It certainly was not an illusion, my strength went up significantly. I agree that a lot of factors come into play like training experience, genetics, etc. Also, if you would be dieting e.g. for a show, you won't gain any muscle just because your rate of weight loss won't allow it.

I would still like a reference where he is saying that a natural cannot gain muscle on a caloric deficit at all.

[Get Rowdy]

Well I was coming from a layoff and my rate of weight loss was very low. It certainly was not an illusion, my strength went up significantly. I agree that a lot of factors come into play like training experience, genetics, etc. Also, if you would be dieting e.g. for a show, you won't gain any muscle just because your rate of weight loss won't allow it.

Agreed.  Most of my muscle/strength gains have come while cutting.  Doing it very slowly over 4-5 months works for me.  I wouldn't adhere to a super strict diet but just try to keep the carbs lowish and protein abit higher.  Once or twice a week I'd probably go abit over maintenance.  Cardio anywhere from once to four times per week.  It's a pretty unstructured approach, but at the end of it I'd be stronger, with more muscle and less fat.

[wavelength]

Agreed.  Most of my muscle/strength gains have come while cutting.  Doing it very slowly over 4-5 months works for me.  I wouldn't adhere to a super strict diet but just try to keep the carbs lowish and protein abit higher.  Once or twice a week I'd probably go abit over maintenance.  Cardio anywhere from once to four times per week.  It's a pretty unstructured approach, but at the end of it I'd be stronger, with more muscle and less fat.

That's basically what I did for the last 6 months, except for the cardio.

[local hero]

feed the machine!!!!!... i know if you get 2 twins turning up on show day, one turns up after dieting the weight off low carb/cal style,, the other turns up eating a good amount of carbs all the way thru, but has hit the right balance of cardio and food ratios,,, who will win?

you fucking bet the cardio twin rules....... you need to find a balance, if your gaining, 3 times per week wont make u shrink or grow less, it will however keep you fit and healthy and help against getting too flaby

[Fatpanda]

regarding increasing muscle/strength on a lower calories - yes it is possible.

many factors can effect the results i.e. steroids, macronutrient ratios, maintenence calories, current body fat levels, coming back from a lay off, level of calorie reduction, etc

a read a study recently that showed net body protein increased while on a protein sparring modified fast at an extremely low calorie level 

Effect of a protein-sparing diet and brief fast on nitrogen metabolism in mildly obese subjects.
Bistrian DR, Winterer J, Blackburn GL, Young V, Sherman M.
Five young, mildly obese females consumed a formula diet providing total calories at 1.2 X basal energy expenditure and egg white protein, 1.5 gm./kg. ideal body weight (IBW), for 1 week (period 1). During period 2, lasting 3 weeks, a protein-sparing modified fast (PSMF) consisted of similar amounts of egg white without nonprotein calories followed by a 1-week total fast (period 3). In the final period (4), a PSMF with the use of meat protein, 1.5 gm./kg. IBW, alone was given for 1 week. Nitrogen balance (Nbal) measurements were made in all periods, and periods 2, 3, and 4 were compared with period 1. No significant difference existed between period 1 and period 2, although Nbal improved weekly during period 2. Nitrogen excretion in period 3 was similar to that found after 3 weeks of total fasting and was significantly negative, whereas positive balances occurred in period 4 with both periods being significantly different from period 1. Thus nitrogen equilibrium in the PSMF can be achieved with the use of protein free from fat, confirming earlier experience with meat protein. The metabolic adaption which occurs during toal fasting and results in reduced nitrogen loss develops in the course of PSMF.   After a deficit in lean body mass is produced, net protein anabolism can be achieved by a PSMF despite insufficinet dietary energy.

regarding the original question i.e. 300 calories from cardio or diet - there are many factors such as those mentioned above that will dictate results.

for instance if you are just finished a bulking phase of 4000 cals a day then 300 cals less from cardio or diet wont make any difference in fat loss or muscle maintance. However if you have been dieting for a while and are already under 10%bf then the choice of diet or cardio for further calorie reductions can make a difference to bf and muscle retention.

at this time cardio would be the prefered choice for numerous reasons. i.e. cardio will increase metabolism ( not decrease it as stated above), exercise will force you to use muscles, and in turn help protect those muscles from being used for energy when the body is desperate for nutrients. The overall health aspects of the cardio etc etc

good old school debate 

[Method101]

regarding increasing muscle/strength on a lower calories - yes it is possible.

many factors can effect the results i.e. steroids, macronutrient ratios, maintenence calories, current body fat levels, coming back from a lay off, level of calorie reduction, etc

a read a study recently that showed net body protein increased while on a protein sparring modified fast at an extremely low calorie level 

regarding the original question i.e. 300 calories from cardio or diet - there are many factors such as those mentioned above that will dictate results.

for instance if you are just finished a bulking phase of 4000 cals a day then 300 cals less from cardio or diet wont make any difference in fat loss or muscle maintance. However if you have been dieting for a while and are already under 10%bf then the choice of diet or cardio for further calorie reductions can make a difference to bf and muscle retention.

at this time cardio would be the prefered choice for numerous reasons. i.e. cardio will increase metabolism ( not decrease it as stated above), exercise will force you to use muscles, and in turn help protect those muscles from being used for energy when the body is desperate for nutrients. The overall health aspects of the cardio etc etc

good old school debate 

that "study" is totally irrelevant because it was conducted on obese people who never trained before.

[ToxicAvenger]

What's the point of doing 30 mins of cardio to burn 300 calories, when you can just eat 300 less calories per day?

Is there any diffrence really?

They both slow your metabolism equally in the long term.


P.s Update on my Diet
So far, 4 weeks into my diet iv lost 10lbs. Very little cardio only walking 

cite me one study that shows that cardio slows metabolism

[Method101]

cite me one study that shows that cardio slows metabolism

are you a fucking idiot.

Cardio is used to create caloric defecit.

Caloric defecit = body metabolism slows down grudually.

[tbombz]

are you a fucking idiot.

Cardio is used to create caloric defecit.

Caloric defecit = body metabolism slows down grudually.

your a kind of correct but your also kind of incorrect.

every BODY has a certain levels of energy that it needs from food in order to power itself(abbreviation = BMR). that level of energy is effected by the amoutn of cells and also the rate that each cell uses energy(and the rate is mostly regulated by food intake).

lets say jon doe has a BMR of 3000 calories per day.  in order to lose weight he needs to either eat less than his BMR, or he needs to increase how much energy his body uses to surpass the level of energy that he consumes.

  if he chooses option A, then he will lower the amount of food intake, which will start to lower his BMR as well (BMR is regulated mostly by food intake).

if he chooses option B and start doing cardio, then his BMR is unaffected. 

Now, on day one, jon doe may do 5 minutes of sprints, and this may burn up 200 calories. but this causes his cardiovascular system to enhance itself a little bit (get him  in "better shape), so the next day his sprints are a little bit easier...and 5 minutes of sprints only burns up 150 calories.  then the day after that only 100....etc.  

Cardio wont effect BMR, but the better shape your cardio vascular system gets in (by way of increasing cardio) the more cardio youw ill have to do to burn the same amount of energy.

 

[The True Adonis]

What's the point of doing 30 mins of cardio to burn 300 calories, when you can just eat 300 less calories per day?

Is there any diffrence really?

They both slow your metabolism equally in the long term.


P.s Update on my Diet
So far, 4 weeks into my diet iv lost 10lbs. Very little cardio only walking 

No difference.  I have been telling people this for years.

[Luv2Hurt]

Cardio works your most important muscle, your heart, yeah it's still more important than my other favorite muscle    so a bit of heart exercise is a good thing.

[tbombz]

cardio may be healthy fr you but so is a low calorie diet.

[dustin]

Layne Norton is a smart guy but honestly, he looks like shit. If there's a juicer at the gym using a very low dosages of PEDs, has mediocre genetics but looks fucking spectacular then I'm going to listen to him. Sometimes you need to put down the beakers and test tubes and stop being a pussy, with all due respect of course. He only looks good when he's dieted down, coloured, standing in professional lighting, for no more than a single frame which is taken at an epic "MySpace" angle which would compliment anyone fabulously. That being said, lets forget about him and his following of nitwit cocksuckers. They're a bunch of straight edge emo's who need denounce anyone who uses PEDs or goes against the Wise One.

No cardio is needed, but I think it does help a lot more than just cutting calories. Do a little of both. Like others said, it does wonders for the metabolism and cardiovascular system. This is why I still do cardio primarily. Also, I can be a bit of a glutton and not have to worry so much about nutrient partitioning.

If you use thyroid medication and insulin, you can ABSOLUTELY and WITHOUT A DOUBT gain muscle and lose bodyfat. There's 24 hours in a day!!! Optimizing your body to partition nutrients to their maximum efficacy, you can lose fat in the morning through low intensity cardio, then eat an adequate amount throughout the day to become anabolic. Ta-da. It's not rocket science.

If you eat a caloric surplus there is a chance of putting on some adipose, of course. But if you want to take it to the next step, throw some ECA into the mix. If you want to use PEDs that are more effective then use clen and T3 (or just T3 like I do - I don't like fucking around with my cardiovascular health). Now top it off with a bit of timed insulin and you're golden. If you're on AAS, you should have no reason not to be pretty close to "beach-ready" all year-round.


Honestly, I'm not the smartest or most genetically gifted individual out there. But I spent a good deal of time reading, training, prepping food and eating. I don't look spectacular and I'm no scholar, but I look great and I keep an open mind. When I get back on the sauce, I will look spectacular. I've learned so much through my own little fuck ups. A lot of people just fuck up but don't learn from it...I don't know why? Even when completely natural I was able to lose fat and gain muscle. I know friends who have too. I don't know why this myth has been perpetuated to no end. It's not the most efficient way of going about things, but if you're at that awkward stage where you're 10-15% bf, can't really cut and feel small or can't really bulk and get husky... just recomp. Eat clean and do cardio, but don't shrivel up. Heck, maybe gain a pound or two of muscle. If you're on drugs, that shit should be a walk in the park!

[Aquiles]

I’m with tbombz and DK on this matter.
Good discussion!

[polychronopolous]

I’m with tbombz and DK looking to shamefully up my post count on this matter.
Good discussion!

fixed

[Method101]

cardio may be healthy fr you but so is a low calorie diet.

How low would you drop your calories to? what would be the lowest you would want to go to?

I weigh around 200lbs now and im eating 2250kcalories per day and doing 30mins slow walking and weightlifting for 1 bodypart per day (30mins low intensity), 7 days a week.
Done 5 weeks of diet now, already calories are quite low, maybe i will have to go under 2000 by the end of the diet. 

[johnnynoname]

btw, 4 minutes of Tabata protocol (sprinting, burpees, whatever you want) > 30 minutes of slow steady cardio on a treadmill

[Method101]

Layne Norton is a smart guy but honestly, he looks like shit.

Are you bigger than this? lol layne actually looks good in these pictures 16 week out, better than on contest day.

[tbombz]

How low would you drop your calories to? what would be the lowest you would want to go to?

I weigh around 200lbs now and im eating 2250kcalories per day and doing 30mins slow walking and weightlifting for 1 bodypart per day (30mins low intensity), 7 days a week.
Done 5 weeks of diet now, already calories are quite low, maybe i will have to go under 2000 by the end of the diet. 

i was using healthy as a term describing something that helps the body be able to live longer.

i think your thinking i meant healthy as "good for body composition"