Author Topic: A Threat We Can’t Ignore  (Read 6916 times)

Benny B

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A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« on: June 20, 2009, 11:15:58 AM »
June 20, 2009

A Threat We Can’t Ignore
By BOB HERBERT

Even with the murders that have already occurred, Americans are not paying enough attention to the frightening connection between the right-wing hate-mongers who continue to slither among us and the gun crazies who believe a well-aimed bullet is the ticket to all their dreams.

I hope I’m wrong, but I can’t help feeling as if the murder at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington and the assassination of the abortion doctor in Wichita, Kan., and the slaying of three police officers in Pittsburgh — all of them right-wing, hate-driven attacks — were just the beginning and that worse is to come.

As if the wackos weren’t dangerous enough to begin with, the fuel to further inflame them is available in the over-the-top rhetoric of the National Rifle Association, which has relentlessly pounded the bogus theme that Barack Obama is planning to take away people’s guns. The group’s anti-Obama Web site is called gunbanobama.com.

While the N.R.A. is not advocating violence, it shouldn’t take more than a glance at the newspapers to understand why this is a message that the country could do without. James von Brunn, the man accused of using a rifle to shoot a guard to death at the Holocaust museum last week, was described by relatives, associates and the police as a virulent racist and anti-Semite.

Investigators said they found a note that had been signed by von Brunn in the car that he double-parked outside the museum. The note said, “You want my weapons — this is how you’ll get them.”

Richard Poplawski, who, according to authorities, used a high-powered rifle to kill three Pittsburgh police officers in April, reportedly believed that Zionists were running the world and that, yes, Obama was planning to crack down on gun ownership. A friend said of Poplawski, he “feared the Obama gun ban that’s on the way.”

There is no Obama gun ban on the way. Gun control advocates are, frankly, disappointed in the president’s unwillingness to move ahead on even the mildest of gun control measures.

What’s important to grasp here is that this madness has nothing to do with hunting, which the politicians always claim to be defending, and everything to do with the use of firearms to resist policies and lawful government actions that some gun owners don’t like.

In a speech in February to the Conservative Political Action Conference, the executive vice president of the N.R.A., Wayne LaPierre, said: “Our founding fathers understood that the guys with the guns make the rules.”

A new book by Dennis Henigan, a vice president at the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, goes into detail on this point. In “Lethal Logic: Exploding the Myths That Paralyze American Gun Policy,” Mr. Henigan refers to a Harvard Law Journal article written by an N.R.A. lawyer titled, “The Second Amendment Ain’t About Hunting.” In the article, the lawyer makes it clear that for the N.R.A., the right to bear arms is “directed at maintaining an armed citizenry. ... to protect against the tyranny of our own government.”

There was a wave of right-wing craziness along those lines during the Clinton administration. Four federal agents were killed and 16 others wounded in 1993 during an attempt to serve a search warrant at the Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Tex., where a stockpile of illegal machine guns had been amassed. The subsequent siege ended disastrously with a raging fire in which scores of people were killed.

In the aftermath of Waco, the N.R.A. did its typically hysterical, fear-mongering thing. In a fund-raising letter in the spring of 1995, LaPierre wrote: “Jack-booted government thugs [have] more power to take away our Constitutional rights, break in our doors, seize our guns, destroy our property, and even injure or kill us. ...”

Whatever the N.R.A. may intend by its rhetoric, there is always the danger that those inclined toward violence will incorporate it into their twisted worldview, and will find in the rhetoric a justification for murder. On the second anniversary of the Branch Davidian fire, less than a week after LaPierre’s inflammatory fund-raising letter went out, Timothy McVeigh blew up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

You cannot blame the N.R.A. for McVeigh’s actions. But you can sure blame it for ignoring the tragic lessons of history and continuing to spray gasoline into an environment that we have seen explode time and again.

The Southern Poverty Law Center has reported a resurgence of right-wing hate groups in the U.S. since Mr. Obama was elected president. Gun craziness of all kinds, including the passage of local laws making it easier to own and conceal weapons, is on the rise. Hate-filled Web sites are calling attention to the fact that the U.S. has a black president and that his chief of staff is Jewish.

It might be wise to pay closer attention than we’ve been paying. The first step should be to bring additional gun control back into the policy mix.
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Benny B

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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2009, 11:18:38 AM »
I looked at the website, and those people are scary-crazy. Shouldn't people, at the very least, have to show proof of sanity in order to own a gun? The weapon of choice when the Second Amendment was written was the musket: According to the Continental army training manual, there were 13 steps to firing a musket. A soldier had to get a cartridge, tear it open with his teeth, put a little bit of powder in the firing mechanism, put the rest of the powder and a gun ball down the barrel, ram the ball and powder home, cock the musket and fire. Rifles took even longer to load, and pistols were only good at short range. These were weapons, in other words, that would have given a 16-point buck or a schoolhouse full of Amish children a sporting chance. They were not weapons of mass destruction. James Von Brunn, if he had not been stopped by a heroic museum guard, could have killed dozens of visitors to the Holocaust Museum last week. Shouldn't my right not to be mowed down by a mass murderer supercede the right of an unhinged person to own a gun? What is so wrong with making it a little bit harder for people to obtain and use guns? We don't allow people to drive a car without passing a test, but any homicidal maniac with a Visa card can fill the trunk of his car with deadly firearms.
Maryanne Conheim
Philadelphia
June 20th, 2009


The NRA is a lobbying group disguised as a membership group, and it's only purpose is to advance the interests (sales, profits) of the gun and ammunition makers and marketers. They care nothing about the public interest, their customers, the constitution, or any other high-minded palaver they put out. They belong to that set of businesses best exemplified morally by the asbestos and tobacco companies that knowingly and willingly caused millions of deaths, not all of them suckers like the gun consumers.
Alexander Mac Donald
San Francisco, California
June 20th, 2009

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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2009, 07:49:56 PM »
Everything written in those articles is backwards its tough to decide where to begin dismembering it. 

1.  Responsible gun owners shouldn't be punished by the actions of a few crazy people.

2.  Criminals are criminals for a reason.  They break the law.  If we were to make guns illegal, its going to take them out of the hands of the responsible, and give them to criminals. 

I could keep going, but there's no point in any further embarassment for the sheep that is benny.

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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2009, 07:59:15 PM »
Everything written in those articles is backwards its tough to decide where to begin dismembering it. 

1.  Responsible gun owners shouldn't be punished by the actions of a few crazy people.

2.  Criminals are criminals for a reason.  They break the law.  If we were to make guns illegal, its going to take them out of the hands of the responsible, and give them to criminals. 

I could keep going, but there's no point in any further embarassment for the sheep that is benny.

Don't make guns illegal, just make sure there is firm gun control.

And automatic rifles should definitely be illegal.

No hunter needs an AK-47 to shoot down a Grizzly.

Obama is gun liberal.

And that's a shame.

Apparently there are more pressing issues like the world economy to see to.

But he's even made it a point to state that there is no strict regulation coming. That there is no big ban on assault weapons coming.

Fcuk the NRA. "Guns don't kill people. People kill people."

Gee. Wonder why so many died in Rwanda in the 90's?

Maybe because they had access to guns and bombs instead of as previously bows and arrows?

How many people would've died in Columbine if these kids would've only had access to say a knife instead of their guns?

It's bullshit.

Obama is so fcuking wrong.
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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2009, 01:31:37 AM »

Fcuk the NRA. "Guns don't kill people. People kill people."

ins't this statement true?  I'm open to material on this so if it can be proven otherwise I'll listen.  But I think if someone wants to kill someone, they'll kill or try to kill them with or without a gun.  If someone wants to kill many, they'll make a bomb if they don't have a gun.  A killer is going to kill imo...

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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2009, 05:47:39 AM »
ins't this statement true?  I'm open to material on this so if it can be proven otherwise I'll listen.  But I think if someone wants to kill someone, they'll kill or try to kill them with or without a gun.  If someone wants to kill many, they'll make a bomb if they don't have a gun.  A killer is going to kill imo...

You honestly don't believe that putting guns in the hand of people leads to more serious violence?

Eg, you and I are at a party.

We both get drunk.

I make a pass at your wife.

You kick my ass.

End of story, I'm probably gonna be fine.


Same setting, we both carry knifes.

Chances are I may live, but the chances that I will die are probably bigger.
End of story.

If we both carry our concealed guns to the party and both get drunk.
I make a pass at your wife.
Not only will probably either one of us get killed.
Chances are that a bystander will too.
End of story.



What's so hard to get about that?  ???
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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2009, 10:40:52 AM »
Don't make guns illegal, just make sure there is firm gun control.

And automatic rifles should definitely be illegal.

No hunter needs an AK-47 to shoot down a Grizzly.

Obama is gun liberal.

And that's a shame.

Apparently there are more pressing issues like the world economy to see to.

But he's even made it a point to state that there is no strict regulation coming. That there is no big ban on assault weapons coming.

Fcuk the NRA. "Guns don't kill people. People kill people."

Gee. Wonder why so many died in Rwanda in the 90's?

Maybe because they had access to guns and bombs instead of as previously bows and arrows?


How many people would've died in Columbine if these kids would've only had access to say a knife instead of their guns?

It's bullshit.

Obama is so fcuking wrong.

That genocide was actually carried out by machetes and other such objects.

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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2009, 10:52:02 AM »
NRA is a business, sure.

But they fight for gun rights and work to expose any gungrabbers to the national spotlight, which costs them re-election.  The NRA cost clinton a LOT of votes in 96 and 98.

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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2009, 11:12:58 AM »
One argument I sometime see, one that is supposedly why the second amendment was instated in the first place, is to protect the people from the government.

So that there is no way the government can "run us over" like they did in eg the Eastern bloc.

Someone would perhaps argue that the Iranian people would be real good off had they been armed like the US citizens.

Then they could really stepped up and gotten rid of their government.


But take a look back 20 years at the revolution in the Eastern Bloc.

Aside from Romania, it was more or less void of violence.

And no regular citizens had guns at home.

They went out and simply protested. In the end, the police and the military wouldn't strike against their own people.

And there was a change.


It's probably pretty accurate to say that the void of weapons made the Iron Curtain Revolution almost a total unbloody affair.

Had people been armed, the chances of a massacre would probably been enormous.
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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2009, 12:20:50 PM »
The holocaust memorial shooter wasn't a right wing nut like you claim.
http://michellemalkin.com/2009/06/11/inconvenient-truth-holocaust-museum-shooter-hated-fox-news-murdoch-weekly-standard-possible-target/

Inconvenient truths: Holocaust Museum shooter hated Fox News, Murdoch; Weekly Standard possible target

Criminals with guns are a problem though.

The biggest issue is that it is too easy to get a gun and that certifiable nut jobs shouldn't have them.
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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2009, 01:14:13 PM »
ins't this statement true?  I'm open to material on this so if it can be proven otherwise I'll listen.  But I think if someone wants to kill someone, they'll kill or try to kill them with or without a gun.  If someone wants to kill many, they'll make a bomb if they don't have a gun.  A killer is going to kill imo...

The concept here is that the gun is just a tool. The real problem is the same as anywhere else. It's not the gun, the drug, the animal, the drink or whatever... The problem is always the person. However, certian people don't want to regulate other people... so they instead try to regulate the tool those people use.

The whole argument against guns is that they are bad because people use them to kill others. However, can't that argument be applied to knives? To cars? How come we don't ban cars, because aren't they are used to hurt some people?

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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2009, 01:19:13 PM »
The concept here is that the gun is just a tool. The real problem is the same as anywhere else. It's not the gun, the drug, the animal, the drink or whatever... The problem is always the person. However, certian people don't want to regulate other people... so they instead try to regulate the tool those people use.

The whole argument against guns is that they are bad because people use them to kill others. However, can't that argument be applied to knives? To cars? How come we don't ban cars, because aren't they are used to hurt some people?

Slow down with all that logic, we don't want you confusing any other getbiggers.

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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2009, 01:22:40 PM »
The concept here is that the gun is just a tool. The real problem is the same as anywhere else. It's not the gun, the drug, the animal, the drink or whatever... The problem is always the person. However, certian people don't want to regulate other people... so they instead try to regulate the tool those people use.

The whole argument against guns is that they are bad because people use them to kill others. However, can't that argument be applied to knives? To cars? How come we don't ban cars, because aren't they are used to hurt some people?

We have regulations for cars don't we?

You have to drive at certain speeds, you have to have a driver's license (which, incredibly, the test you have to pass is harder to pass than when you go get a license for a gun).

You also have to drive on the right side of the road, et al.

So car driving is very much regulated.

And finally - cars are not tools designed primarily to kill with.

They are actually - believe it or not - vehicles.

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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2009, 01:28:53 PM »
We have regulations for cars don't we?

You have to drive at certain speeds, you have to have a driver's license (which, incredibly, the test you have to pass is harder to pass than when you go get a license for a gun).

You also have to drive on the right side of the road, et al.

So car driving is very much regulated.

And finally - cars are not tools designed primarily to kill with.

They are actually - believe it or not - vehicles.



Hedgehog, lets say for example john doe wanted to kill you with a car.  He didn't have a license, do you think he would be able to buy a car?  Absoutely.  So the argument regarding that is invalid on your part.  Secondly, even with said regulations on cars, people still die, so clearly regulation isn't the answer.  I've said it before and I will say it again, making guns harder to get will only discourage people that want them for home defense/hunting/target practice.  Remember, criminals break the law.  What makes any of you think they wouldn't break the law to obtain a gun?

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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2009, 01:30:02 PM »
We have regulations for cars don't we?

You have to drive at certain speeds, you have to have a driver's license (which, incredibly, the test you have to pass is harder to pass than when you go get a license for a gun).

You also have to drive on the right side of the road, et al.

So car driving is very much regulated.

And finally - cars are not tools designed primarily to kill with.

They are actually - believe it or not - vehicles.



Hedge I think you missed my point...

People USE them to cause harm. A car sitting there by itself isn't going to run you over. People USE guns to cause harm... it is the person that is doing it, not the gun.

Yes, guns and cars are both regulated. Why are certian types of guns banned? Banning a gun like an AK47 or other assault-style rifle is like banning BMWs because they go too fast...

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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2009, 01:32:12 PM »
Hedgehog, lets say for example john doe wanted to kill you with a car.  He didn't have a license, do you think he would be able to buy a car?  Absoutely.  So the argument regarding that is invalid on your part.  Secondly, even with said regulations on cars, people still die, so clearly regulation isn't the answer.  I've said it before and I will say it again, making guns harder to get will only discourage people that want them for home defense/hunting/target practice.  Remember, criminals break the law.  What makes any of you think they wouldn't break the law to obtain a gun?

I think it's amazing that some people think regulation and registration of guns accomplishes anything. If i was a criminal and was going to off you... do you really think I am going to go down to the local gun store and buy it legally?

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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2009, 01:46:52 PM »
  Secondly, even with said regulations on cars, people still die, so clearly regulation isn't the answer. 

Regulation do actually help.

Yes, people still die when driving. But the deaths per driven car are decreasing - due to regulation. Like it or not.

We've seen that death rates went down significantly when speed limits were introduced.

Another big drop came when seatbelts in the driver's seat were introduced.

And then when the passanger seat have to wear it as well.

Another big drop came with the backseat mandatory seatbelt.


I've said it before and I will say it again, making guns harder to get will only discourage people that want them for home defense/hunting/target practice.  Remember, criminals break the law.  What makes any of you think they wouldn't break the law to obtain a gun?

If you regulate how people keep their guns (in safes and with the mags at a separate place) and make everyone go through a similar type of class as when getting a driving license, you will not only have better shooters. You will have much more responsible owners. And gun thefts are much less likely to happen, as well as drunk shootings IMO.


Hedgehog, lets say for example john doe wanted to kill you with a car.  He didn't have a license, do you think he would be able to buy a car?  Absoutely.  So the argument regarding that is invalid on your part.

I don't think so. I think gun licensing and some type of class is an issue that NRA should promote. They should definitely be part in holding those classes, since they have know-how and a thorough organisation to get it started in no time.
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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2009, 01:50:17 PM »
The other day I was in the bedroom getting ready for the day and heard a strange noise.  The dog that was in my room perked up and looked weird and started creeping down the hall.   I grabbed one of my guns and walked through the house only to find it was just my other dog playing w/her food bowl.  But I was very happy to have my gun!
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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2009, 02:50:54 PM »
This is more liberal homo garbage.  They are always silent at the THOUSANDS of gang murders every year.

This is all about pushing a pc political agenda and has nothing to do with crime. 

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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2009, 02:53:26 PM »
The amount of gun crimes committed by licensed owners is negligble compared to the gang bangers and illegal crimialns. 

It took me 6 months and background checks etc to get a license.  Do you really think that a gang member or street thug is going to go through that???

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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2009, 03:16:08 PM »
The amount of gun crimes committed by licensed owners is negligble compared to the gang bangers and illegal crimialns. 

It took me 6 months and background checks etc to get a license.  Do you really think that a gang member or street thug is going to go through that???

That was the point I was trying to make.

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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2009, 04:55:38 PM »
The point your trying to make is completely erroneous.  Criminals will find a way to get guns, so all that regulation just makes people that are going to be responsible either pissed off, or just give up.

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Re: A Threat We Can’t Ignore
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2009, 11:54:53 PM »
This is more liberal homo garbage.  They are always silent at the THOUSANDS of gang murders every year.

This is all about pushing a pc political agenda and has nothing to do with crime. 


I think you're wrong.
I don't consider myself a homo.
I've voiced my opinion about the gang problems on this board numerous times.
At least for me it's not about pushing a pc political agenda.
I happen to believe gun control would be positive for crime fighting.

So I just don't think you're assessment is necessarily true.

I know I am against guns based on cold reasoning.

The other day I was in the bedroom getting ready for the day and heard a strange noise.  The dog that was in my room perked up and looked weird and started creeping down the hall.   I grabbed one of my guns and walked through the house only to find it was just my other dog playing w/her food bowl.  But I was very happy to have my gun!

What if you were a mom. And the dog you sneaked up on were your baby playing hide and seek.

Would you still be happy - very happy - you had your gun?

BTW, what would you have done had it been an intruder? Killed the person?

My point is, you having a gun simply leads to a spiral of violence.

The amount of gun crimes committed by licensed owners is negligble compared to the gang bangers and illegal crimialns. 

It took me 6 months and background checks etc to get a license.  Do you really think that a gang member or street thug is going to go through that???


No. I don't think a thug will go through that. But if there is a mandatory gun test, like when getting a driving license, you will get more responsible gun owners as a whole.

As for the thugs - you probably got to hit web stores, underground dealers and foreign shops that ship into the USA to stop part of that.

But in the end, what it all boils down to, is to get the manufacturers to co-operate.

They're the ones, who incredibly, manufacturers both guns for the criminals and those trying to defend themselves.

You got to make them cut off the production.

By force, if you have to.

Sure - I see the need to protect yourself as long as there are thousands of weapons out there.

But clean up the fucking ghettos and demolish all the illegal guns first then. Spend a year or two doing that.

Then start bringing on sensible regulation. As in strict rules on how to keep your guns et al.
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