A Threat We Can’t Ignore

[Brixtonbulldog]

More foul-smelling "widom" from getbig's left-wing lunatics.  Jeezus Fucking Christ

There is NO good argument for restricting gun rights to law abiding citizens.  NONE

Self-defense requires having ANY weapon/s at your disposal to protect yourself, your family, and your property.  The gov't cannot limit or regulate small arms specifically for that purpose.

Or we can just wait for the police which take anywhere from 5 to 35 mins to arrive.  A lot can happen to you, your wife, and your kids before they get there.

[Eyeball Chambers]

There is NO good argument for restricting gun rights to law abiding citizens.  NONE

There is NO good argument for restricting gun rights to law abiding citizens.  NONE

There is NO good argument for restricting gun rights to law abiding citizens.  NONE

[Hedgehog]

More foul-smelling "widom" from getbig's left-wing lunatics.  Jeezus Fucking Christ

There is NO good argument for restricting gun rights to law abiding citizens.  NONE

Self-defense requires having ANY weapon/s at your disposal to protect yourself, your family, and your property.  The gov't cannot limit or regulate small arms specifically for that purpose.

Or we can just wait for the police which take anywhere from 5 to 35 mins to arrive.  A lot can happen to you, your wife, and your kids before they get there.

I am trying to see your arguments. All I basically get is insults in return.

I don't get that part actually.

But back to the matter in hand - guns.

I want firm gun regulation and I want to get rid of illegal guns BECAUSE: I think that will decrease the crime rate.

If you argue for guns for guns because you believe there will be less crimes, then use some good argument, don't just use some ad hominem attack.

Try to explain WHY there will be lower crimes.

Someone mentioned Switzerland as a good example.

But Switzerland has one of the highest death by firearms rates in the world.


Look instead at Japan.



The only argument from the pro side that I've seen in the gun debate here that had any sense to it, was 240 (lol) who posted awhile ago that there is so much weapon around that sure it would be nice to go back to having no guns.
But that's just not a reality. Arming up is the only way - we've gone too far.

I'm paraphrasing, but that's how I interpreted him, and it was an answer I could definitely sympathize with. Not agree with, but it definitely made sense.

All this denial shit about how guns don't kill people et al.

That's just bullshit though.

I can't understand how otherwise educated people would buy into that BS.

[Soul Crusher]

Again, putting more regulations on people like myself is not going to do anything. 

Did you know that most violent crimes are committed by recidivist criminals??? 

Additionally, automatic weapons are already banned here.  As far as semi-auto rifles, the amount of crimes committed with them is almost next to n othing in relation to overall gun crimes. 

Most are committed by .22 or small caliber cheap handguns. 

[Hedgehog]

Again, putting more regulations on people like myself is not going to do anything. 

Did you know that most violent crimes are committed by recidivist criminals??? 

Additionally, automatic weapons are already banned here.  As far as semi-auto rifles, the amount of crimes committed with them is almost next to n othing in relation to overall gun crimes. 

Most are committed by .22 or small caliber cheap handguns. 

What's your thoughts on an effort on trying to totally clean America from all illegal guns?

And how would you go about doing it, I mean come as close as possible to it?

[Soul Crusher]

What's your thoughts on an effort on trying to totally clean America from all illegal guns?

And how would you go about doing it, I mean come as close as possible to it?

No 1, I think that is literally impossible due to the fact that there are hundreds of millions of guns in circulations in the USA. 

No 2, I would enact extremely strict sentencing enhancements if a person uses a gun in the commision of a violent crime like a robbery or home invasion.  Possession of an illegal weapon should also carry severe penalties. 

No 3.  Cash for Guns has a place but is not the end all and be all. 

No 4.  I would enact CCW in all states and mandate NRA training and certification.  I have no problem with background checks and NRA training. 

I live in NYC and we went from 2,200 murders a year down to only a few hundred.  The difference? 

No, it was not gun control laws since we have always had tough laws.  It was better policing.  Guiliani cleaned up the streets from the vermin. 

it did not take new gun control laws to take care of the crime problem.     

[Butterbean]

"What if you were a mom. And the dog you sneaked up on were your baby playing hide and seek.

Would you still be happy - very happy - you had your gun?


Yes.  Hedge, I see what you are saying but you don't run into a room and blindly start shooting.  You hold the gun up, pointing at the ceiling and later level it if need be.  Also, there is the added safety of the safety.




BTW, what would you have done had it been an intruder? Killed the person?



Depending on how close he was to me or if he froze when I told him to, I may not have to shoot at all...  .....but if he were advancing quickly upon me, I would try to shoot him in the legs or the penile area.


My point is, you having a gun simply leads to a spiral of violence."


This is a chance that the intruder takes. 

[Hedgehog]

"What if you were a mom. And the dog you sneaked up on were your baby playing hide and seek.

Would you still be happy - very happy - you had your gun?


Yes.  Hedge, I see what you are saying but you don't run into a room and blindly start shooting.  You hold the gun up, pointing at the ceiling and later level it if need be.  Also, there is the added safety of the safety.




BTW, what would you have done had it been an intruder? Killed the person?



Depending on how close he was to me or if he froze when I told him to, I may not have to shoot at all...  .....but if he were advancing quickly upon me, I would try to shoot him in the legs or the penile area.


My point is, you having a gun simply leads to a spiral of violence."


This is a chance that the intruder takes. 



Look, I'm not pretending it's some kind of easy situation where if we all stop having guns and start wearing flowers in our hair it will become a fucking parade.

But when I see police officers using tasers on senior citizens it tells me one thing - they did it because they could.

Had they not been equipped with tasers they would've been forced to use other sources, perhaps contemplated escaping from the old woman in order to avoid getting beat up.

The same goes with you and the gun.

Instead of you going into hiding, you instead chose to go and confront a potential danger.

Confrontation.

Which is more likely than avoidance to lead to violence.

If someone spots from a distance that his car is being jacked by two thugs, and either runs or decides to confront them with his Beretta 92F, what do you think is most likely to get him into a potential dangerous confrontation?

[240 is Back]

What if you were a mom. And the dog you sneaked up on were your baby playing hide and seek.

Would you still be happy - very happy - you had your gun?

BTW, what would you have done had it been an intruder? Killed the person?

My point is, you having a gun simply leads to a spiral of violence.

I respect your opinion on most topics, Hedge.  You bring a level headedness to things.

This issue is tough, however.  When your front door is kicked in by three armed home invaders intent on pistol whipping you about 15 times before taking your valuables and fleeing into the night... you're not all that concerned about perpetuating a cycle of violence.

You just want to protect yourself.


In south florida, every week there are 1-2 home invasions.  2-3 guys will break a window, beat the shit out of resident, and rob him in middle of night.  That's some scary stuff. 

What would you do if that threat was present?  Call the police?  They'll be there in 11 minutes, about 3 minutes after bad guys have driven away and you have a smashed face, if you're lucky.


If you have another solution, I'm all ears.  Even if the bad guys had no guns, they still have bats, knives, and element of surprise, more than a match for a groggy person with maybe 5 seconds warning after the smash to prepare for incoming mess.  You either have time to grab a cell and mumble something to the 911 operator... or to grab your weapon and level it at the door to drop whatever illegally enters your room.

[Soul Crusher]

I respect your opinion on most topics, Hedge.  You bring a level headedness to things.

This issue is tough, however.  When your front door is kicked in by three armed home invaders intent on pistol whipping you about 15 times before taking your valuables and fleeing into the night... you're not all that concerned about perpetuating a cycle of violence.

You just want to protect yourself.


In south florida, every week there are 1-2 home invasions.  2-3 guys will break a window, beat the shit out of resident, and rob him in middle of night.  That's some scary stuff. 

What would you do if that threat was present?  Call the police?  They'll be there in 11 minutes, about 3 minutes after bad guys have driven away and you have a smashed face, if you're lucky.


If you have another solution, I'm all ears.  Even if the bad guys had no guns, they still have bats, knives, and element of surprise, more than a match for a groggy person with maybe 5 seconds warning after the smash to prepare for incoming mess.  You either have time to grab a cell and mumble something to the 911 operator... or to grab your weapon and level it at the door to drop whatever illegally enters your room.

Hey 240 - I finally got my full carry in NYS! 

It took forever. 

[Butterbean]

If someone spots from a distance that his car is being jacked by two thugs, and either runs or decides to confront them with his Beretta 92F, what do you think is most likely to get him into a potential dangerous confrontation?

That scenario and being a victim of a home invasion are very different. 

If someone is trying to steal my car from a distance, I'm not going to confront them w/a gun...that is a situation for the cops.  But if someone breaks into my home w/who knows what on their mind, they may end up w/some extra holes in their weiner.

[Hedgehog]

I respect your opinion on most topics, Hedge.  You bring a level headedness to things.

This issue is tough, however.  When your front door is kicked in by three armed home invaders intent on pistol whipping you about 15 times before taking your valuables and fleeing into the night... you're not all that concerned about perpetuating a cycle of violence.

You just want to protect yourself.


In south florida, every week there are 1-2 home invasions.  2-3 guys will break a window, beat the shit out of resident, and rob him in middle of night.  That's some scary stuff. 

What would you do if that threat was present?  Call the police?  They'll be there in 11 minutes, about 3 minutes after bad guys have driven away and you have a smashed face, if you're lucky.


If you have another solution, I'm all ears.  Even if the bad guys had no guns, they still have bats, knives, and element of surprise, more than a match for a groggy person with maybe 5 seconds warning after the smash to prepare for incoming mess.  You either have time to grab a cell and mumble something to the 911 operator... or to grab your weapon and level it at the door to drop whatever illegally enters your room.

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, you (of all people )  makes the best arguments for guns.

That's just my opinion though.

I can't really say much against what you tell me, cause I ain't living in your reality.

336 mentioned the cleaning up Giuliani did - that has to be done before any of the other issues are taken care of.

Ie, get rid of the illegal guns, clean up the streets from criminals.

But as far as criminals and Florida...

Now, I'm no expert on the current population there.

But from what I understand, there are way too many people that could be working and contributing instead of just doing time.

That's perhaps something Florida should try to change somehow to get more tax revenue, and to boost economic power.

JMO.

But that's slightly off-topic.

My main point is really this though - I can't tell you that you're fcuking wrong. Because I don't live in your reality everyday.

Of course I've stayed in rough neighborhoods my fair share of time, when I lived in other countries.

But I think what pisses most pro-gun activists off are anti-gun activists that are ignorant to how life in tougher hoods are like.

[Soul Crusher]

NYC in the late 80's - early 90's was CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!

2200 murders alone. 

Guiliani cleaned it up by allowing the cops to go after smaller crimes called "quality of life crimes."

He went after crime without abandon. 

[Hedgehog]

That scenario and being a victim of a home invasion are very different. 

If someone is trying to steal my car from a distance, I'm not going to confront them w/a gun...that is a situation for the cops.  But if someone breaks into my home w/who knows what on their mind, they may end up w/some extra holes in their weiner.

Since you're Christian:
instead of trying to hurt the intruder, why not offer the intruder whatever to take what he wants?

Your reward for that will be great - according to Jesus.

“But I say to you who are listening: Love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you. 28Bless those who curse you, and pray for those who insult you. 29If someone strikes you on the cheek, offer him the other one as well, and if someone takes your coat, don't keep back your shirt, either. 30Keep on giving to everyone who asks you for something, and if anyone takes what is yours, do not insist on getting it back. 31Whatever you want people to do for you, do the same for them.
32“If you love those who love you, what thanks do you deserve? Why, even sinners love those who love them. 33If you do good to those who do good to you, what thanks do you deserve? Even sinners do that. 34If you lend to those from whom you expect to get something back, what thanks do you deserve? Even sinners lend to sinners to get back what they lend. 35Rather, love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind even to ungrateful and evil people. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.”

[Butterbean]

Since you're Christian:
instead of trying to hurt the intruder, why not offer the intruder whatever to take what he wants?

Your reward for that will be great - according to Jesus.

“But I say to you who are listening: Love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you. 28Bless those who curse you, and pray for those who insult you. 29If someone strikes you on the cheek, offer him the other one as well, and if someone takes your coat, don't keep back your shirt, either. 30Keep on giving to everyone who asks you for something, and if anyone takes what is yours, do not insist on getting it back. 31Whatever you want people to do for you, do the same for them.
32“If you love those who love you, what thanks do you deserve? Why, even sinners love those who love them. 33If you do good to those who do good to you, what thanks do you deserve? Even sinners do that. 34If you lend to those from whom you expect to get something back, what thanks do you deserve? Even sinners lend to sinners to get back what they lend. 35Rather, love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind even to ungrateful and evil people. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.”

I knew this would be coming

Hedge, that would be no problem w/me.  Stuff is just stuff.  He can have some and get out...

The problem is if he advances to attack or rape.   

[tonymctones]

hedge, the problem with your thats more ppl who could be contributing rather then sitting in jail is slightly skewed. This is assuming these ppl would be straight law abiding citizens...they arent thats what makes them criminals them possesing a gun didnt create a criminal they were criminals before the guns and they would still be criminals without the guns.

The US will never and i mean never get rid of guns in there entirety its simply impossible at this time, creating regulations which we have will not keep guns out of the hands of criminals. I agree that gun control to a certain extent is a good thing however we have tons of gun control in this country. The problem is the control is over law abiding citizens the ppl commiting violent acts generally are not law abiding citizens and did not obtain their guns legally. So how exactly would more regulation or gun control stop that?

STELLA, WHAT IS THE DEAL WITH THE CROTCH REGION  

[Decker]

Everything written in those articles is backwards its tough to decide where to begin dismembering it. 

1.  Responsible gun owners shouldn't be punished by the actions of a few crazy people.

....

I remember when the gov. tried to keep domestic abusers from being gun owners and the NRA thought that these pieces of shit wife and child beaters should have the right to be armed.

That was just another indication to me how fucking insane the NRA is and how dangerous gun nuts are.

[Decker]

The concept here is that the gun is just a tool. The real problem is the same as anywhere else. It's not the gun, the drug, the animal, the drink or whatever... The problem is always the person. However, certian people don't want to regulate other people... so they instead try to regulate the tool those people use.

The whole argument against guns is that they are bad because people use them to kill others. However, can't that argument be applied to knives? To cars? How come we don't ban cars, because aren't they are used to hurt some people?

This argument that a gun's just a tool is deceptive.

A gun is the most efficient killing/destroying tool we have.  Otherwise we'd arm our US soldiers with rocks and butter knives.

Why guns?  B/c guns make killing easier to do.

[Kazan]

I remember when the gov. tried to keep domestic abusers from being gun owners and the NRA thought that these pieces of shit wife and child beaters should have the right to be armed.

That was just another indication to me how fucking insane the NRA is and how dangerous gun nuts are.

Ah there is the standard liberal bullshit line, gun nut, christian nut, <insert here> nut. A weak attempt to marginalize anyone who disagree's with you, I mean they would have to be crazy to do that.

It's obviouse you have no clue what a law abiding citizen who owns a gun is like, they respect the weapon.

I bet you have no problem with ACLU going to bat for organizations like NAMBLA.

[Soul Crusher]

I remember when the gov. tried to keep domestic abusers from being gun owners and the NRA thought that these pieces of shit wife and child beaters should have the right to be armed.

That was just another indication to me how fucking insane the NRA is and how dangerous gun nuts are.

Come to my home with illegal intentions and you will see how right you are. 

[Decker]

Ah there is the standard liberal bullshit line, gun nut, christian nut, <insert here> nut. A weak attempt to marginalize anyone who disagree's with you, I mean they would have to be crazy to do that.

It's obviouse you have no clue what a law abiding citizen who owns a gun is like, they respect the weapon.

I bet you have no problem with ACLU going to bat for organizations like NAMBLA.

Now that we've heard from the batshit insane gun nut crowd, let's continue the debate.

[Decker]

Come to my home with illegal intentions and you will see how right you are. 

Are you a domestic abuser?


I didn't think you read what I'd written.  You're just typing knee-jerk reactionary stuff.

[Soul Crusher]

Are you a domestic abuser?


I didn't think you read what I'd written.  You're just typing knee-jerk reactionary stuff.

The NRA protects the 2nd amendment the same way the ACLU protects the 1st.

Sure the ACLU does things I dont like sometimes, but overall I am more comfortable with them fighting for the 1st amendement as you should be for the NRA.   

[Kazan]

Now that we've heard from the batshit insane gun nut crowd, let's continue the debate.

You are a bafoon, I don't own a gun and have no desire to own a gun. It is a constitutional right to own a gun, you assclowns think we should give constitutional rights to terrorist but wish to deny them from US citizens. You unwashed culture-war-waging horsemen of the apocalypse

[Brixtonbulldog]

Now that we've heard from the batshit insane gun nut crowd, let's continue the debate.

No NRA member I've ever known is anywhere near as much of a fringe lunatic as you are.  To you everyone supporting gun rights is "batshit insane."

No understanding whatsoever.