Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies

[Straw Man]

ARe you talking about this that you bolded?

I know nothing of the author and have no idea how accurate it may be


If so, no, I believe we can know God in a personal way and learn about Him through the bible.  Knowing how accurate the bible is, is a harder thing of course, but prophecy helps me to accept it as true.

I'm not sure what you mean by this statement

[ToxicAvenger]

I don't know what Muslims believe about Christ i.e. whether he's a currently already a Muslim (seems weird that he would be a Christian as that would mean he would have to accept himself as his own saviour)

Muslims believe that Christ ws a prophet of god just like mohammed..
God sent down christ with the bible...
the reason mohammed is held in high regard is cause he ws the last prophet (with the koran)
if ya asked my dad why he dosen't believe in the bible..he'd say..that he does..just show him the original..cause it ws lost a long time ago and changed thru translations and man
the arabic koran apparently has not been changed

[ToxicAvenger]

I thought that 2/3 of the population in Iraq was Shia too.  I thought I recall reading/hearing that Saddam was Sunni and so the Sunni's dominated the Shia's even though the Shia's were larger in number. 

http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/shia_population.htm

[ToxicAvenger]

Toxy thanks for that info.....and please pick me up a chocolate shake and a Spicy Baconator

i had their new steakhouse burger....yummy!

Jesus doesn't need a Savior 

in islam..that is also correct...all prophets get a free pass into heaven..
however the difference is that he is not considered god...no human apparently can be equated to god

[ToxicAvenger]

ok - let's not get mired down in semantics.
If I understand you correctly you don't respect the belief that Christ will come back as a Muslim.
According to Toxic there are tens of millions of people who do believe this.
In your opinion, why do you think they hold this belief?  Do you think they are being deceived?  If so by whom?
Are they just merely mininformed and haven't been taught the "good news"?
 

well Christ in Islam didn't consider himself to be a christian or muslim either...just simply..a messenger of god...
in islamic history (in my understanding) god sent down different books with different prophets thru time..christ ws one of em
the word muslim came after..in christs time there ws no Mecca (is that right?) or 5 prayers...that came later...apparently god wanted his people to pray like 100 or so times / day...and mohammed apparently talked him down to 5..no lie...

[Straw Man]

http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/shia_population.htm

this link shows Iran @ 93% Shia and Iraq @ 62%.

It does also show that Shia are less than 10% of the total Muslim population though I am a bit dubious of the stats that certain countries are 100% or high 90% Muslim.  I'm sure there are a lot of people who live there that don't self identify as Muslim or even any religion (just a hunch).

Still, I guess your larger point is that most Muslims are Sunni and they don't have the same beliefs as Shia.  

I'm still learning all this stuff.  I didn't even know that Muslims believed that the historical figured of Jesus was going to return but as a Muslim or preach Islam.  



In your opinion, do Sunni's believe that Jesus was always Muslim and that somehow Christians just got it wrong and mis-identified Jesus as a God when he was merely a Muslim prophet?

[Deicide]

I'm not sure what you mean by this statement

Stella believes biblical prophecy to be unerringly perfect and confirmed. That is what she means.

Even though there are many explanations for people's belief in such things, I still can't wrap my head around the fact that otherwise rational/normal human beings get involved in this. Consistency is not man's strong suit.

[Straw Man]

Muslims believe that Christ ws a prophet of god just like mohammed..
God sent down christ with the bible...
the reason mohammed is held in high regard is cause he ws the last prophet (with the koran)
if ya asked my dad why he dosen't believe in the bible..he'd say..that he does..just show him the original..cause it ws lost a long time ago and changed thru translations and man
the arabic koran apparently has not been changed

When you say God sent Jesus down with the Bible what does this mean exactly?

I assume if a historical figure that we refer to as Jesus actually existed that he wasn't born holding a book.  
I wasn't aware that Muslims believe the bible was written or in any way authored by Jesus.

[Straw Man]

Stella believes biblical prophecy to be unerringly perfect and confirmed. That is what she means.

Even though there are many explanations for people's belief in such things, I still can't wrap my head around the fact that otherwise rational/normal human beings get involved in this. Consistency is not man's strong suit.

thanks but I'm more interested in what she thinks than what you believe she thinks (no offense)

I'm also intersted in why she holds her beliefs and/or how she came to believe what she believes

[ToxicAvenger]

Still, I guess your larger point is that most Muslims are Sunni and they don't have the same beliefs as Shia.  

correct

In your opinion, do Sunni's believe that Jesus was always Muslim and that somehow Christians just got it wrong and mis-identified Jesus as a God when he was merely a Muslim prophet?

no there ws no such thing as muslim back then..but yes muslims do believe that jesus ws not God...he ws merely a messanger...ie a prophet of god

scientifically ill go with the muslims on this...same matter cannot occupy 2 spaces at the same time but then...we r talking religion...
http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/p08.htm

[ToxicAvenger]

Still, I guess your larger point is that most Muslims are Sunni and they don't have the same beliefs as Shia.  

correct

In your opinion, do Sunni's believe that Jesus was always Muslim and that somehow Christians just got it wrong and mis-identified Jesus as a God when he was merely a Muslim prophet?

no there ws no such thing as muslim back then..but yes muslims do believe that jesus ws not God...he ws merely a messanger...ie a prophet of god

scientifically ill go with the muslims on this...same matter cannot occupy 2 spaces at the same time but then...we r talking religion...
http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/p08.htm

[ToxicAvenger]

When you say God sent Jesus down with the Bible what does this mean exactly?

well Jesus didn't show up with a book one day walking down a mountain..in Islam the Koran ws revealed to mohammed in a cave where he slept..in dreams etc...so there must be something similar for ALL muslim and christian prophets

I assume if a historical figure that we refer to as Jesus actually existed that he wasn't born holding a book.

 yep...besides all prophets at least in Islam were given a supernatural gift..mohammed could communicate with animals the story goes..but every prophet had a gift to prove that he actually ws one..side note..why didn't god send female prophets?

I wasn't aware that Muslims believe the bible was written or in any way authored by Jesus.

muslims believe in the jewish book torah also...but again they say the original ws lost..

[Straw Man]

correct

no there ws no such thing as muslim back then..but yes muslims do believe that jesus ws not God...he ws merely a messanger...ie a prophet of god

scientifically ill go with the muslims on this...same matter cannot occupy 2 spaces at the same time but then...we r talking religion...
http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/p08.htm

great link - thanks

I'm not sure how it applies to our conversation.   Are you saying God and man (and by extension Jesus) can't occupy the same space?

if so, you're using that as proof that Jesus is not God.

sorry  in advance if I'm completely missing your point

[Straw Man]

well Jesus didn't show up with a book one day walking down a mountain..in Islam the Koran ws revealed to mohammed in a cave where he slept..in dreams etc...so there must be something similar for ALL muslim and christian prophets  yep...

ok but let's just start with this....... the bible is just a collection of stories that include stuff that pre-dates the time when Jesus was said to exist

let's also continue to the obvious point that Jesus wasn't around to edit, redact, translate and publish the many different versions of this book ..... or even one version

[ToxicAvenger]

great link - thanks

I'm not sure how it applies to our conversation.   Are you saying God and man (and by extension Jesus) can't occupy the same space?

if so, you're using that as proof that Jesus is not God.

sorry  in advance if I'm completely missing your point

point is..lets say god creaated the universe
then god created all the physical laws that govern it

if so..then god would not be callus enough to confuse humanity by himself disobeying those laws of physics

yeah the uncertanity principly says" 2 objects cannot occupy the same space and time" so an extention of it says " the same object cannot occupt 2 places in space at the same time"

sooo if jesus ws here on earth...he certainly couldn't be elsewhere as god at the same time...how could he be preaching gods word here on earth if he IS god...does not make sence to me...or he is preaching the word of god written by..himself?

[ToxicAvenger]

ok but let's just start with this....... the bible is just a collection of stories that include stuff that pre-dates the time when Jesus was said to exist

according to Islam ..its the direct word of god...revealed to christ

let's also continue to the obvious point that Jesus wasn't around to edit, redact, translate and publish the many different versions of this book ..... or even one version

well to counter point...neither ws mohammed and muslims claim that the original arabic book is EXACTLY the same down to the last comma..apparently it ws memorised by the closest "friends" of mohammed..

practice continues to this day...ya seen those kids in madarsas on the teli rocking back n forth..well they r memorizing the koran word for word..that person is then (in arabic) called a hafiz


i found this link..i'm gonna read it now

http://www.submission.org/quran/protect.html

[ToxicAvenger]

well watcha know...i stand corrected..


From these oldest copies more copies were made and distributed throughout the world. Although many famous Muslim scholars claim that all the copies of the Quran anywhere in the world are the same, they are only exposing their ignorance to the facts and mislead millions of Muslims to believe in their wrong teachings. The only motive for them is their misunderstanding of and inability to comprehend verse 15:9. We will see later different Qurans written differently. The most standardized editions of the Quran in the world today is the one printed in Cairo, Egypt in 1924 (approved in 1918) and after that the King Fahd edition in Saudi Arabia.

[Straw Man]

point is..lets say god creaated the universe
then god created all the physical laws that govern it

if so..then god would not be callus enough to confuse humanity by himself disobeying those laws of physics

yeah the uncertanity principly says" 2 objects cannot occupy the same space and time" so an extention of it says " the same object cannot occupt 2 places in space at the same time"

sooo if jesus ws here on earth...he certainly couldn't be elsewhere as god at the same time...how could he be preaching gods word here on earth if he IS god...does not make sence to me...or he is preaching the word of god written by..himself?

so God and humans are distinct and separate objects?

I would argue that God pours reality into existence through itself and the idea that you are distinct and separate from god is an illusion or more aptly a mistake

Buddhist have the concept of Right View.

The entire problem of existence starts off as a mistake on the nature of our existence(Orginal Sin anyone?)

It may be our delusion that we are ever separate from god (or whatever you want to call it).

One of the lines in the Heart Sutra has been translated as follows:

"With nothing to attain a Bodhisattva depends on Prajna Paramita and the mind is no hindrance. Without any hindrance no fears exists. Far apart from every perverted view one dwells in nirvana.

I guess my point of all fo this is that if God exists I can easily make the argument that we can occupy the same space at the same time

[ToxicAvenger]

so God and humans are distinct and separate objects?

I would argue that God pours reality into existence through itself and the idea that you are distinct and separate from god is an illusion or more aptly a mistake

Buddhist have the concept of Right View.

The entire problem of existence starts off as a mistake on the nature of our existence(Orginal Sin anyone?)

It may be our delusion that we are ever separate from god (or whatever you want to call it).

One of the lines in the Heart Sutra has been translated as follows:

"With nothing to attain a Bodhisattva depends on Prajna Paramita and the mind is no hindrance. Without any hindrance no fears exists. Far apart from every perverted view one dwells in nirvana.

I guess my point of all fo this is that if God exists I can easily make the argument that we can occupy the same space at the same time

actrually i do give some credence to the old hindu texts



this is why

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Vimanas.htm

[Straw Man]

the bhagavad gita works too.

where are all the christians (other than Stella - thanks Stella)?

[loco]

Been discussed before.

Can you believe a devout Muslim wrote these two books?
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=240831.msg3382771#msg3382771

[loco]

About Jesus, Muslims believe:

That Jesus was virgin born
That Jesus did miracles
That Jesus is a prophet sent by God
That Jesus is the Messiah
That Jesus is alive today
That Jesus will return

Muslims venerate "The Virgin Mary" almost as much as Roman Catholics do.

Some Christians believe that in the end times, the Muslims and the Roman Catholic Church will unite to form a One World Religion under a One World Government, that a Muslim leader will be The Anti-Christ, and that a Pope will be The False Prophet that the book of Revelations talks about.

The book of Daniel speaks of a statue made up of different elements, each symbolizing every major world empire since the Babylonian empire.  The only part of the statue representing an empire that has not yet arrived is the statue's feet which are made in part of iron and in part of of clay.  Some Christians believe that the iron and the clay are the Muslims and the Roman Catholic Church.

Again, not all Christians believe this.

[loco]

Jesus is neither a Christian nor a Muslim.

"Christian" is the name given by 1st century pagans to those who believe in and follow Jesus Christ.  Jesus Christ is not a follower of Jesus Christ.  Therefore Jesus Christ is not a Christian.

Jesus is not a Muslim.  During his ministry in this world, Jesus was a Jew and the Son of God, same God who revealed Himself to the Jews.

[Deicide]

Jesus is neither a Christian nor a Muslim.

"Christian" is the name given by 1st century pagans to those who believe in and follow Jesus Christ.  Jesus Christ is not a follower of Jesus Christ.  Therefore Jesus Christ is not a Christian.

Jesus is not a Muslim.  During his ministry in this world, Jesus was a Jew and the Son of God, same God who revealed Himself to the Jews.

Who is allegedly the Creator of the Universe, this selfsame deity neglected to manifest himself to indigenous people of the Americas or Australia. Very strange. I wonder if the Creator of the Universe really fits into something like that....

[Straw Man]

Jesus is neither a Christian nor a Muslim.

"Christian" is the name given by 1st century pagans to those who believe in and follow Jesus Christ.  Jesus Christ is not a follower of Jesus Christ.  Therefore Jesus Christ is not a Christian.

Jesus is not a Muslim.  During his ministry in this world, Jesus was a Jew and the Son of God, same God who revealed Himself to the Jews.

So you don't think Jesus will come back and covert the entire planet to Islam?