Author Topic: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies  (Read 7649 times)

Straw Man

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Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« on: June 28, 2009, 10:16:24 AM »
I don't know much at all about Islam but with all the unrest in Iran there have been a lot of stories on the news and I recently learned that a certain sect of Shia Muslims are waiting for a Messiah (twelth Imam) who will return with Christ and "will reestablish the rightful governance of Islam and replete the earth with justice and peace"

Can any fundie Muslims explain this in more detail?  Do I have this part of the story correct?

Do any fundie Christians here believe this too? 

If Christ and the Twelth Imam come back together who will be in charge.  Will the whole planet now be Muslim or Christian or will they just co-exist together in perfect harmony?


ToxicAvenger

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2009, 11:24:32 AM »
must we be muslim or christian fundies to answer this?

Most sunni muslims dont believe that shiias are muslims since in Islam Mohammed is supposed to be the last prophet (the koran revealed to him). Hense Sunnis like christians dont believe in a 12th imam...thats considered blasphemy

All sunnis like christians believe in the second coming of christ to help humanity...

although Muslim sunnis believe christ will return and everyone will become muslim...cause christ himself is supposed to believe in the "latest most recent word of god"...that being the koran

hopefully that answers your question
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Straw Man

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2009, 11:34:00 AM »
must we be muslim or christian fundies to answer this?

Most sunni muslims dont believe that shiias are muslims since in Islam Mohammed is supposed to be the last prophet (the koran revealed to him). Hense Sunnis like christians dont believe in a 12th imam...thats considered blasphemy

All sunnis like christians believe in the second coming of christ to help humanity...

although Muslim sunnis believe christ will return and everyone will become muslim...cause christ himself is supposed to believe in the "latest most recent word of god"...that being the koran

hopefully that answers your question

THANKS - I'm still trying to sort out the difference btw. Shia's and Sunnis and even the different sects of Shia's.

I'm very curious if any Christians were aware of any of this and what they think about it.

Cleary, the best case scenario is that one of the two major groups (Christians and Muslims) is in for a big suprise if Christ actually shows up


ToxicAvenger

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2009, 11:43:19 AM »
Quote
THANKS - I'm still trying to sort out the difference btw. Shia's and Sunnis and even the different sects of Shia's.

99% of the muslims on this planet r sunnis..i grew up in a sunni family..am athiest though

some differences i know about
1) shiaas r the ones that march around in some holy months cutting themselves etc
which of course is barbaric and stupid me thinks

2) they also have conditional marriages...you can marry someone for a day :-\
Quote
I'm very curious if any Christians were aware of any of this and what they think about it.
Most christians here in the US have a very negative view of Islam...and thats the media...its why North Korea and Iran hate us...its THEIR media...selective story telling..

for example..this video below is from british teli..and its former (now dead) prime minister of pakistan saying something important...never made 1 friggin single telivision news station in the USA...why?

carpe` vaginum!

Straw Man

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2009, 11:54:33 AM »
99% of the muslims on this planet r sunnis..i grew up in a sunni family..am athiest though

some differences i know about
1) shiaas r the ones that march around in some holy months cutting themselves etc
which of course is barbaric and stupid me thinks

2) they also have conditional marriages...you can marry someone for a day :-\Most christians here in the US have a very negative view of Islam...and thats the media...its why North Korea and Iran hate us...its THEIR media...selective story telling..

for example..this video below is from british teli..and its former (now dead) prime minister of pakistan saying something important...never made 1 friggin single telivision news station in the USA...why?



are you sure 99% are Sunnis?

Isn't Iran mostly Shia and isn't the majority of the population in Iraq also Shia?

Butterbean

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2009, 11:55:25 AM »
I don't know much of anything about the 12th Imam other than the Iranian leader seems to be looking forward to his return or appearance or whatever.

If Islam says that that guy and Christ will come back and "rule" that is interesting because the Christian bible indicates that Christ will return physically, but this will be after the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet run things for the tribulation period. 

They will be apparently be able to control the masses w/the "mark of the beast" requirement needed to buy and sell anything.  This type of technology is here already.

Here this should help re: biblical prophecy stuff (gotquestions.org):


Question: "What is going to happen according to end times prophecy?"

Answer: The Bible has a lot to say about the end times. Nearly every book of the Bible contains prophecy regarding the end times. Taking all of these prophecies and organizing them can be difficult. Following is a very brief summary of what the Bible declares will happen in the end times.

Christ will remove all born-again believers from the earth in an event known as the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-54). At the judgment seat of Christ, these believers will be rewarded for good works and faithful service during their time on earth or will lose rewards, but not eternal life, for lack of service and obedience (1 Corinthians 3:11-15; 2 Corinthians 5:10).

The Antichrist (the beast) will come into power and will sign a covenant with Israel for seven years (Daniel 9:27). This seven-year period of time is known as the “tribulation.” During the tribulation, there will be terrible wars, famines, plagues, and natural disasters. God will be pouring out His wrath against sin, evil, and wickedness. The tribulation will include the appearance of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse, and the seven seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments.

About halfway through the seven years, the Antichrist will break the peace covenant with Israel and make war against it. The Antichrist will commit “the abomination of desolation” and set up an image of himself to be worshipped in the Jerusalem temple (Daniel 9:27; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-10), which will have been rebuilt. The second half of the tribulation is known as “the great tribulation” (Revelation 7:14) and “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7).

At the end of the seven-year tribulation, the Antichrist will launch a final attack on Jerusalem, culminating in the battle of Armageddon. Jesus Christ will return, destroy the Antichrist and his armies, and cast them into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:11-21). Christ will then bind Satan in the Abyss for 1000 years and He will rule His earthly kingdom for this thousand-year period (Revelation 20:1-6).

At the end of the thousand years, Satan will be released, defeated again, and then cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:7-10) for eternity. Christ then judges all unbelievers (Revelation 20:10-15) at the great white throne judgment, casting them all into the lake of fire. Christ will then usher in a new heaven and new earth and the New Jerusalem—the eternal dwelling place of believers. There will be no more sin, sorrow, or death (Revelation 21–22).

Recommended Resource: Understanding End Times Prophecy by Paul Benware.




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Straw Man

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2009, 12:01:22 PM »
Thanks Stella.

I'm sure you know that I think it's ALL nonsense but my main interest is if the two major groups are even aware of each other stories.

Toxic says that Sunni's don't believe in the 12th Imam but do believe that Christ will return and everyone will become a Muslim.

What do you think about that? 

I've also never been quite clear on what happens to all the the "saved" souls that are already in heaven.  Do they just stay up there or do they come back to Earth for the party?

Butterbean

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2009, 12:04:27 PM »


I'm very curious if any Christians were aware of any of this and what they think about it.

Cleary, the best case scenario is that one of the two major groups (Christians and Muslims) is in for a big suprise if Christ actually shows up



Something that's interesting is that if the way the Rapture is usually interpreted is correct ...that all believers in Christ are removed from the earth at one time (later others will become believers but they may be killed for their faith or need to endure till Christ physically returns) then it would more easily pave the way for some belief system other than Christianity to be the one world religion.


I would like to know more about what Islam says about end-time stuff too and see how/if it parallels w/the Bible. 

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Straw Man

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2009, 12:07:53 PM »
Something that's interesting is that if the way the Rapture is usually interpreted is correct ...that all believers in Christ are removed from the earth at one time (later others will become believers but they may be killed for their faith or need to endure till Christ physically returns) then it would more easily pave the way for some belief system other than Christianity to be the one world religion.

I would like to know more about what Islam says about end-time stuff too and see how/if it parallels w/the Bible. 

what's your opinion of the millions of Muslims who think Christ will return as a Muslim and everyone will become Muslim?

ToxicAvenger

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2009, 12:11:23 PM »
are you sure 99% are Sunnis?

Isn't Iran mostly Shia and isn't the majority of the population in Iraq also Shia?

Iran is mostly shia..but thats it...the rest of the population r sunni
carpe` vaginum!

Butterbean

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2009, 12:14:53 PM »
Thanks Stella.

I'm sure you know that I think it's ALL nonsense but my main interest is if the two major groups are even aware of each other stories.

Toxic says that Sunni's don't believe in the 12th Imam but do believe that Christ will return and everyone will become a Muslim.

What do you think about that? 

I've also never been quite clear on what happens to all the the "saved" souls that are already in heaven.  Do they just stay up there or do they come back to Earth for the party?

Yes I know you think it's all nonsense :)

I think when Christ actually returns (and He won't be the Anti-Christ that some people think he will be) it is at the Battle of Armeggedon and after Satan (who will be indwelling the Anti-Christ) and his followers are "cast into the lake of fire,"  all people that go into the Millenium at that point will be believers. 

As far as the saved souls already in heaven and the people that were "raptured," yes, the indication is they will return w/Christ at HIs 2nd coming but will have diff. "bodies" than the people that are still on earth that make it thru the tribulation and battle.
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Straw Man

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2009, 12:16:38 PM »
Iran is mostly shia..but thats it...the rest of the population r sunni

I thought that 2/3 of the population in Iraq was Shia too.  I thought I recall reading/hearing that Saddam was Sunni and so the Sunni's dominated the Shia's even though the Shia's were larger in number. 

Butterbean

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2009, 12:18:22 PM »
what's your opinion of the millions of Muslims who think Christ will return as a Muslim and everyone will become Muslim?

Being a Christian I don't believe that.  I think they are deceived just as I'm sure they think I am deceived.

Do they think Christ is a Muslim now or do they think He will become one? 
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Straw Man

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2009, 12:20:08 PM »
Yes I know you think it's all nonsense :)

I think when Christ actually returns (and He won't be the Anti-Christ that some people think he will be) it is at the Battle of Armeggedon and after Satan (who will be indwelling the Anti-Christ) and his followers are "cast into the lake of fire,"  all people that go into the Millenium at that point will be believers. 

As far as the saved souls already in heaven and the people that were "raptured," yes, the indication is they will return w/Christ at HIs 2nd coming but will have diff. "bodies" than the people that are still on earth that make it thru the tribulation and battle.


ok - but what do you think about the millions of Muslims who apparently believe that Christ will come back and actually turn out to be a Muslim and I guess convert the planet to Islam.  

What do you think about that?

Do you respect that belief (even though you clearly don't agree with it)?

ToxicAvenger

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2009, 12:20:53 PM »
Something that's interesting is that if the way the Rapture is usually interpreted is correct ...that all believers in Christ are removed from the earth at one time (later others will become believers but they may be killed for their faith or need to endure till Christ physically returns) then it would more easily pave the way for some belief system other than Christianity to be the one world religion.I would like to know more about what Islam says about end-time stuff too and see how/if it parallels w/the Bible. 

i heading off to burger king but real quick (i'll be back soon)
In Islam everyone (EVERYONE) had an 2 angels sitting on their shoulders...
one on the left..writing down all your sins...one on the right...writing down all good deeds..on the day of judgement NOONE is exempt..the good will get weighed against the bad..
however you dont necessarily have to be muslim to get into heaven...and being muslim dosen't gurantee you a place in heaven either...if u r an escimo living in the north pole but lived a good (non muslim) life you get into heaven...however a muslim that murders ...rapes...will goto hell...he is supposed to know better..ok dont have time to spell check..my girls having a burger king fit..

be back soon
carpe` vaginum!

Straw Man

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2009, 12:25:55 PM »
Being a Christian I don't believe that.  I think they are deceived just as I'm sure they think I am deceived.

Do they think Christ is a Muslim now or do they think He will become one?  

I don't know what Muslims believe about Christ i.e. whether he's a currently already a Muslim (seems weird that he would be a Christian as that would mean he would have to accept himself as his own saviour)

Butterbean

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2009, 12:33:38 PM »
ok - but what do you think about the millions of Muslims who apparently believe that Christ will come back and actually turn out to be a Muslim and I guess convert the planet to Islam.  

What do you think about that?

Do you respect that belief (even though you clearly don't agree with it)?

I guess I'm not sure what you are saying about respecting the belief.  I respect the people and their right to believe it ...but I'm not sure the word respect can apply to the belief itself... sorry if I'm not clear :-\   


According to this definition......

re·spect (r-spkt)
tr.v. re·spect·ed, re·spect·ing, re·spects
1. To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
2. To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
3. To relate or refer to; concern.


....since I don't believe that Christ will become a Muslim I would have to say no to respecting the belief.   That doesn't mean I have no respect for those that believe it though.
 
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Butterbean

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2009, 12:36:42 PM »
i heading off to burger king but real quick (i'll be back soon)
In Islam everyone (EVERYONE) had an 2 angels sitting on their shoulders...
one on the left..writing down all your sins...one on the right...writing down all good deeds..on the day of judgement NOONE is exempt..the good will get weighed against the bad..
however you dont necessarily have to be muslim to get into heaven...and being muslim dosen't gurantee you a place in heaven either...if u r an escimo living in the north pole but lived a good (non muslim) life you get into heaven...however a muslim that murders ...rapes...will goto hell...he is supposed to know better..ok dont have time to spell check..my girls having a burger king fit..

be back soon

Toxy thanks for that info.....and please pick me up a chocolate shake and a Spicy Baconator


I don't know what Muslims believe about Christ i.e. whether he's a currently already a Muslim (seems weird that he would be a Christian as that would mean he would have to accept himself as his own saviour)

Jesus doesn't need a Savior  ;D
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Straw Man

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2009, 12:40:43 PM »
I guess I'm not sure what you are saying about respecting the belief.  I respect the people and their right to believe it ...but I'm not sure the word respect can apply to the belief itself... sorry if I'm not clear :-\   


According to this definition......

re·spect (r-spkt)
tr.v. re·spect·ed, re·spect·ing, re·spects
1. To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
2. To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
3. To relate or refer to; concern.


....since I don't believe that Christ will become a Muslim I would have to say no to respecting the belief.   That doesn't mean I have no respect for those that believe it though.

ok - let's not get mired down in semantics.

If I understand you correctly you don't respect the belief that Christ will come back as a Muslim.

According to Toxic there are tens of millions of people who do believe this.

In your opinion, why do you think they hold this belief?  Do you think they are being deceived?  If so by whom?

Are they just merely mininformed and haven't been taught the "good news"?
 

Butterbean

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2009, 01:05:11 PM »


According to Toxic there are tens of millions of people who do believe this.

In your opinion, why do you think they hold this belief?  


I can't say specifically.  Could have been what they were taught and they assume it's true.  Could be they looked into it carefully and it makes sense to them and they accept it as true.  Could be they like certain aspects of it and accept it as true.  Could be they've just always assumed it was true etc etc.

Do you think they are being deceived?  If so by whom?


 
I think that is possible yes.  People can deceive themselves, people can deceive other people and I also believe that Satan deceives.   




Are they just merely mininformed and haven't been taught the "good news"?
 

I don't know...could be.  But also, I've seen a lot of people that have heard the "good news" that reject it.

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Butterbean

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2009, 01:08:38 PM »
Hey Straw Man, if you are interested I found a site w/a chart regarding Muslim, Jewish and Christian Prophecy Comparisons.

I only browsed it, I know nothing of the author and have no idea how accurate it may be:

http://contenderministries.org/prophecy/eschatology.php
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Straw Man

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2009, 01:12:19 PM »
Hey Straw Man, if you are interested I found a site w/a chart regarding Muslim, Jewish and Christian Prophecy Comparisons.

I only browsed it, I know nothing of the author and have no idea how accurate it may be:

http://contenderministries.org/prophecy/eschatology.php


I'll check it out.

btw - your description could easily be applied to the bible too.   

Wouldn't you agree?

Butterbean

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2009, 01:16:24 PM »
I'll check it out.

btw - your description could easily be applied to the bible too.   

Wouldn't you agree?

ARe you talking about this that you bolded?

I know nothing of the author and have no idea how accurate it may be


If so, no, I believe we can know God in a personal way and learn about Him through the bible.  Knowing how accurate the bible is, is a harder thing of course, but prophecy helps me to accept it as true.
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Straw Man

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2009, 01:39:38 PM »
Which description?  WHy people hold certain beliefs or what you bolded in your quote?

the description that I bolded in your previous statement.

that would perfectly apply to the bible as well (though off the topic of this thread - don't want to derail my own thread).

So you're aware that people can hold beliefs for no other reason except that they were taught it at a young age, assume it to be true, were indoctrinated in that belief by the culture they were raised or currently reside etc..


Butterbean

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Re: Question for the Muslim and Christian Fundies
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2009, 01:42:17 PM »
the description that I bolded in your previous statement.

that would perfectly apply to the bible as well (though off the topic of this thread - don't want to derail my own thread).



Oh!  I had just modified my post to refer to that   ;D
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