My best condition so far - now complete with all pictures on page 5

[wavelength]

It's official, I'm going to do exactly what you've done wavelength.  I've lost almost 30 pounds (from 225, minimal if any muscle loss) but the weight loss is now slowing down.  I've got a pretty good idea of your principles so far, but can you lay them out in a list one more time for everyone? Thank you!!!

I've written an article a few months ago, which summarizes everything, I think:

The goal of a cutting diet is to improve body composition by losing fat while preserving as much muscle as possible.

Essential Rules

- Workout with weights 3 times a week.
- Drink about a gallon of water each day.
- Eat at least 1g protein / lb of lean body mass a day.
- Eat some fruit, veggies/salad, and some essential fatty acids (EFAs) every day.
- Above that eat whatever you want, preferably a wide variety of foods.
- Adjust your food intake so that the desired rate of weight change is maintained.
- The rate of weight change should not be above 3lbs/week, 1-2lbs/week is recommended.

IMO, any diet (resp. cutting method) that follows the above rules is optimal for cutting, any further details will not have significant effect on body composition. If you already have a meal plan, just check if these rules are followed and adjust if not.

Measuring Progress and Adjusting Food Intake

- Weigh yourself once a week, always at the same time (e.g. right after waking up).
- Don't panic if your weight stays the same or even goes up for one or two weeks.
- If your weight does not go down for more than three weeks, slightly reduce calories.
- If your rate of weight loss is above the recommended value, slightly increase calories.
- The change in daily calories from those adjustments should not exceed 500 cals.
- After adjustment, stay on the new value for at least three weeks before adjusting again.

If you have never done a cutting diet, it's always better to start with more calories and reduce slowly until the desired rate of weight change is maintained. If you stay patient, you will not have to adjust very often. With more experience, you will not have to count calories anymore, but as a beginner it is probably a good idea.

Unessential Factors

Since many questions revolve around further details of cutting diets, here is a list of factors that I believe to be of insignificant effect for body composition:

- Cardio and fat burners,
- Meal timing and meal frequency,
- Protein / Carb / Fat distribution throughout the day,
- carb / fat ratio,
- Sodium intake,
- Moderate alcohol intake,
- Use of supplements resp. meal replacements,
- "Clean" food vs. Junk food (sugar and saturated fat).

All these factors should be used as tools to make the diet as convenient as possible. Many people e.g. have an easier time dieting with eating more calories and doing cardio or taking fat burners. Some people like myself have an easier time without cardio and fat burners. In my experience, the end result (body composition improvement) is not significantly influenced. Another example is protein supplements. I e.g. use whey powder to meet my daily protein intake out of convenience. I could just as well get all my protein from other sources. A third example is meal frequency and timing. This tool should be used to reduce hunger as much as possible throughout the day. For some people that means eating 6 times a day, for others it means eating only once or twice a day.

Psychological Tips and Tricks

- It is possible that you will not "see" changes in the mirror until your bodyfat gets rather low. Don't panic, as long as the rules are followed, everything is right on track.

- If at all, only assess your physique right after a workout. At other times it's too dependent on water retention, and the mind will play tricks on you (telling you your progress sucks, etc.).

- Have a cheat day (pig-out day) once in a while, where you eat what you want. I had one every week on my last diet. Don't feel guilty about it, as long as the rules are still followed, everything is allright.

- Don't take the whole thing too serious. It's better to not care about it so much. See it more as being the coach of another person, rather than yourself.

[Deicide]

I've written an article a few months ago, which summarizes everything, I think:

The goal of a cutting diet is to improve body composition by losing fat while preserving as much muscle as possible.

Essential Rules

- Workout with weights 3 times a week.
- Drink about a gallon of water each day.
- Eat at least 1g protein / lb of lean body mass a day.
- Eat some fruit, veggies/salad, and some essential fatty acids (EFAs) every day.
- Above that eat whatever you want, preferably a wide variety of foods.
- Adjust your food intake so that the desired rate of weight change is maintained.
- The rate of weight change should not be above 3lbs/week, 1-2lbs/week is recommended.

IMO, any diet (resp. cutting method) that follows the above rules is optimal for cutting, any further details will not have significant effect on body composition. If you already have a meal plan, just check if these rules are followed and adjust if not.

Measuring Progress and Adjusting Food Intake

- Weigh yourself once a week, always at the same time (e.g. right after waking up).
- Don't panic if your weight stays the same or even goes up for one or two weeks.
- If your weight does not go down for more than three weeks, slightly reduce calories.
- If your rate of weight loss is above the recommended value, slightly increase calories.
- The change in daily calories from those adjustments should not exceed 500 cals.
- After adjustment, stay on the new value for at least three weeks before adjusting again.

If you have never done a cutting diet, it's always better to start with more calories and reduce slowly until the desired rate of weight change is maintained. If you stay patient, you will not have to adjust very often. With more experience, you will not have to count calories anymore, but as a beginner it is probably a good idea.

Unessential Factors

Since many questions revolve around further details of cutting diets, here is a list of factors that I believe to be of insignificant effect for body composition:

- Cardio and fat burners,
- Meal timing and meal frequency,
- Protein / Carb / Fat distribution throughout the day,
- carb / fat ratio,
- Sodium intake,
- Moderate alcohol intake,
- Use of supplements resp. meal replacements,
- "Clean" food vs. Junk food (sugar and saturated fat).

All these factors should be used as tools to make the diet as convenient as possible. Many people e.g. have an easier time dieting with eating more calories and doing cardio or taking fat burners. Some people like myself have an easier time without cardio and fat burners. In my experience, the end result (body composition improvement) is not significantly influenced. Another example is protein supplements. I e.g. use whey powder to meet my daily protein intake out of convenience. I could just as well get all my protein from other sources. A third example is meal frequency and timing. This tool should be used to reduce hunger as much as possible throughout the day. For some people that means eating 6 times a day, for others it means eating only once or twice a day.

Psychological Tips and Tricks

- It is possible that you will not "see" changes in the mirror until your bodyfat gets rather low. Don't panic, as long as the rules are followed, everything is right on track.

- If at all, only assess your physique right after a workout. At other times it's too dependent on water retention, and the mind will play tricks on you (telling you your progress sucks, etc.).

- Have a cheat day (pig-out day) once in a while, where you eat what you want. I had one every week on my last diet. Don't feel guilty about it, as long as the rules are still followed, everything is allright.

- Don't take the whole thing too serious. It's better to not care about it so much. See it more as being the coach of another person, rather than yourself.

You are my god!

[Fatpanda]

Why did you doubt me when I told you this a few years ago?

when you first mentioned this you said calories were all that mattered, i.e. protein calories were no more important than carbs or fats. 

.5 to one gram per lb of bodyweight.

nonsense, i've read many studies that state higher amounts are needed. a better scale is 1-1.5g  perhaps even 2g.

So 'nighttime muscle protection' through aminos is a myth?

no

I say it doesn't matter for body composition if you consume your protein before bedtime or not. Everything else is just details which, although potentially true, can be canceled out by other details.

this is incorrect, as i have shown you many times via studies, meal timing does have a dramatic effect on body composition and strength.

[Fatpanda]

I've written an article a few months ago, which summarizes everything, I think:

The goal of a cutting diet is to improve body composition by losing fat while preserving as much muscle as possible.

Essential Rules

- Workout with weights 3 times a week.
- Drink about a gallon of water each day.
- Eat at least 1g protein / lb of lean body mass a day.
- Eat some fruit, veggies/salad, and some essential fatty acids (EFAs) every day.
- Above that eat whatever you want, preferably a wide variety of foods.
- Adjust your food intake so that the desired rate of weight change is maintained.
- The rate of weight change should not be above 3lbs/week, 1-2lbs/week is recommended.

IMO, any diet (resp. cutting method) that follows the above rules is optimal for cutting, any further details will not have significant effect on body composition. If you already have a meal plan, just check if these rules are followed and adjust if not.

Measuring Progress and Adjusting Food Intake

- Weigh yourself once a week, always at the same time (e.g. right after waking up).
- Don't panic if your weight stays the same or even goes up for one or two weeks.
- If your weight does not go down for more than three weeks, slightly reduce calories.
- If your rate of weight loss is above the recommended value, slightly increase calories.
- The change in daily calories from those adjustments should not exceed 500 cals.
- After adjustment, stay on the new value for at least three weeks before adjusting again.

If you have never done a cutting diet, it's always better to start with more calories and reduce slowly until the desired rate of weight change is maintained. If you stay patient, you will not have to adjust very often. With more experience, you will not have to count calories anymore, but as a beginner it is probably a good idea.

Unessential Factors

Since many questions revolve around further details of cutting diets, here is a list of factors that I believe to be of insignificant effect for body composition:

- Cardio and fat burners,
- Meal timing and meal frequency,
- Protein / Carb / Fat distribution throughout the day,
- carb / fat ratio,
- Sodium intake,
- Moderate alcohol intake,
- Use of supplements resp. meal replacements,
- "Clean" food vs. Junk food (sugar and saturated fat).

All these factors should be used as tools to make the diet as convenient as possible. Many people e.g. have an easier time dieting with eating more calories and doing cardio or taking fat burners. Some people like myself have an easier time without cardio and fat burners. In my experience, the end result (body composition improvement) is not significantly influenced. Another example is protein supplements. I e.g. use whey powder to meet my daily protein intake out of convenience. I could just as well get all my protein from other sources. A third example is meal frequency and timing. This tool should be used to reduce hunger as much as possible throughout the day. For some people that means eating 6 times a day, for others it means eating only once or twice a day.

Psychological Tips and Tricks

- It is possible that you will not "see" changes in the mirror until your bodyfat gets rather low. Don't panic, as long as the rules are followed, everything is right on track.

- If at all, only assess your physique right after a workout. At other times it's too dependent on water retention, and the mind will play tricks on you (telling you your progress sucks, etc.).

- Have a cheat day (pig-out day) once in a while, where you eat what you want. I had one every week on my last diet. Don't feel guilty about it, as long as the rules are still followed, everything is allright.

- Don't take the whole thing too serious. It's better to not care about it so much. See it more as being the coach of another person, rather than yourself.

what you do works for you, but so many things on this list could be improved apon which have been proven by science 

[wavelength]

when you first mentioned this you said calories were all that mattered, i.e. protein calories were no more important than carbs or fats. 

nonsense, i've read many studies that state higher amounts are needed. a better scale is 1-1.5g  perhaps even 2g.


no
 this is incorrect, as i have shown you many times via studies, meal timing does have a dramatic effect on body composition and strength.

I can only remember one study which suggests effect of protein timing after workout.

[wavelength]

what you do works for you, but so many things on this list could be improved apon which have been proven by science 

namely?

[Fatpanda]

I can only remember one study which suggests effect of protein timing after workout.

there are tons showing positive effects of meal timing pre/post workout.

the one you are thinking about compared the same shake taken durectly before an afternoon/night workout to a shake in the morning.

the results were dramatic.

[wavelength]

there are tons showing positive effects of meal timing pre/post workout.

the one you are thinking about compared the same shake taken durectly before an afternoon/night workout to a shake in the morning.

the results were dramatic.

According to Alan Aragon, the anabolic window after anaerobic workouts is much larger than anticipated. I wouldn't intentionally starve myself of protein after a workout and also not starve myself in general before a workout, simply because I feel stronger if I eat something before.

I am not aware of tons of studies regarding pre and post workout nutrition, do you have references?

[The True Adonis]

when you first mentioned this you said calories were all that mattered, i.e. protein calories were no more important than carbs or fats. 

nonsense, i've read many studies that state higher amounts are needed. a better scale is 1-1.5g  perhaps even 2g.


no
 this is incorrect, as i have shown you many times via studies, meal timing does have a dramatic effect on body composition and strength.

And this is precisely why you will keep beating your head against the wall.

[Fatpanda]

namely?

my comments are in brackets.

Essential Rules

- Workout with weights 3 times a week. (do you mean the same bodypart 3x a week or a 3 way split done over a week? )
- Drink about a gallon of water each day. ( debatable - but would not agree nor disagree)
- Eat at least 1g protein / lb of lean body mass a day. (agreed, perhaps even more to be optimal)
- Eat some fruit, veggies/salad, and some essential fatty acids (EFAs) every day. (debatable - proper multi vits/etc can provide just as much if not more health nutrients as these foods, however i would not disagree with this outright, just would not claim its a must - see ronnie coleman)
- Above that eat whatever you want, preferably a wide variety of foods. (agreed)
- Adjust your food intake so that the desired rate of weight change is maintained. (disagree, if i want to lose 3lbs a week, and i get to 8%bf i will lose muscle if i reduce food to maintain that loss)
- The rate of weight change should not be above 3lbs/week, 1-2lbs/week is recommended. (disagree - you can lose a lot more at the start of the diet without risk of muscle loss, certainly no more than 1-2lbs/week towards ripped territory)

Unessential Factors

Since many questions revolve around further details of cutting diets, here is a list of factors that I believe to be of insignificant effect for body composition:

- Cardio and fat burners, (how can you say these are unessential - cardio and fat burners increase metabolism)
- Meal timing and meal frequency, (meal timing when done properly this can have dramatic effects on strength and body recomposition)
- Protein / Carb / Fat distribution throughout the day, (again pre/post workout shakes have dramatic effects on body strength and recomposition)
- carb / fat ratio, (agreed)
- Sodium intake, (agreed, unless talking about peaking for a show)
- Moderate alcohol intake (agreed, but does effect health),
- Use of supplements resp. meal replacements, (agreed)
- "Clean" food vs. Junk food (sugar and saturated fat). (agreed, unles talking about health long term)

[Fatpanda]

According to Alan Aragon, the anabolic window after anaerobic workouts is much larger than anticipated. I wouldn't intentionally starve myself of protein after a workout and also not starve myself in general before a workout, simply because I feel stronger if I eat something before.

I am not aware of tons of studies regarding pre and post workout nutrition, do you have references?

are you serious ? any simple google/pubmed search will turn up tons of pre/post workout studies.

it is not under debate at all - it has been proven.

And this is precisely why you will keep beating your head against the wall.

please explain.

[The True Adonis]

are you serious ? any simple google/pubmed search will turn up tons of pre/post workout studies.

it is not under debate at all - it has been proven.

please explain.

From what I have understood, you have been obese now for a very long time and have tried different approaches, pretty much with mixed or failed results.  This being due to a neurotic nature of second guessing and a continual search for a "holy" grail of dieting.

Some of this comes from various sources and I have verified some of it on other boards you have posted on.  Some of course, may be wrong so here is your chance to clear the air.

What progress or success, if any, have you achieved?  What methods have you tried and used?  Why do you think you do not look the way you wish and what can you do differently to attain your goal?


I am not trying to belittle you, instead I am wishing to gain some perspective through your personal insight so please do not take this post in the wrong manner.

[PJim]

End of the day, TA and Wavelength have both got into great shape following this method. Fatpanda, I'm not trying to take sides, but have you ever been in the kind of shape that either of these gentlemen are/have been in? I've started my cutting diet as of two days ago and I am following these principles yet again. I'm eating between 100-150grams of protein a day, depending on the food I take in and as many carbs and fats as necessary to meet my planned calorie needs. I like to think of my calories as one big number for a whole week, then break it down into segments as necessary, depending on variables such as location, hunger and what I'm craving at that particular time. So, if for example I take in 1000 calories one day and then 4000 the next, it wouldn't matter as long as the rest of the week my calories balance out for the week. I think both of these guys are right on the money when it comes to dieting, for a natural and even for a juiced bodybuilder, I just think that protein requirements would need to be adjusted depending on dosages etc.

[Fatpanda]

From what I have understood, you have been obese now for a very long time and have tried different approaches, pretty much with mixed or failed results.  This being due to a neurotic nature of second guessing and a continual search for a "holy" grail of dieting.

Some of this comes from various sources and I have verified some of it on other boards you have posted on.  Some of course, may be wrong so here is your chance to clear the air.

What progress or success, if any, have you achieved?  What methods have you tried and used?  Why do you think you do not look the way you wish and what can you do differently to attain your goal?


I am not trying to belittle you, instead I am wishing to gain some perspective through your personal insight so please do not take this post in the wrong manner.

i'll answer this quickly as i have to leave in a few mins. i will address this in greater detail tomorrow.

i have been as heavy as 280lbs and as light as 145 lbs - at 280 i had lots of fat and muscle - classic powerlifter type phyique, at 145lbs i was not as ripped as wave nor adonis have reached, but certainly slim with muscle. i could se abs, but never achieved a '6 pack'.

adonis you are correct i am borderline obsessive compulsive when i read about diet/nutrition/drugs and training and have indeed been searching for the holy grail as you put it.

i am also very much like yourself in terms of experimentation in diet/training and ped use.

i now feel i have all the knowledge required and have indeed found the holy grail in terms of the areas mentioned above. i simply lack the desire/hunger and willpower to apply it all at the moment, not to mention the problems i have been facing over the past few months.

i fully respect and admire both yourself and wave for the results and intellect you both possess and share.

talk later.

[wavelength]

- Workout with weights 3 times a week. (do you mean the same bodypart 3x a week or a 3 way split done over a week? )

Every bodypart at least once a week.

- Drink about a gallon of water each day. ( debatable - but would not agree nor disagree)

The amount is more than enough in my opinon, most people want an amount, that's why I put it here.

- Eat at least 1g protein / lb of lean body mass a day. (agreed, perhaps even more to be optimal)

That's at least my experience.

- Eat some fruit, veggies/salad, and some essential fatty acids (EFAs) every day. (debatable - proper multi vits/etc can provide just as much if not more health nutrients as these foods, however i would not disagree with this outright, just would not claim its a must - see ronnie coleman)

Agreed, it's only essential if you do not take multi vits. Should probably say "... or supplement accordingly". Wanted to make it as basic as possible though.

- Adjust your food intake so that the desired rate of weight change is maintained. (disagree, if i want to lose 3lbs a week, and i get to 8%bf i will lose muscle if i reduce food to maintain that loss)
- The rate of weight change should not be above 3lbs/week, 1-2lbs/week is recommended. (disagree - you can lose a lot more at the start of the diet without risk of muscle loss, certainly no more than 1-2lbs/week towards ripped territory)

I agree, I left out the part about slowing down with weight loss in very low BF regions to not make the guide too complicated. In any case, I think that's highly dependent on genetics. I always recommend to watch strength in the gym as an indicator for muscle loss. If strength goes down, the rate of weight loss should be adjusted to smaller values.

- Cardio and fat burners, (how can you say these are unessential - cardio and fat burners increase metabolism)

The question is, do they improve body composition when total intake is adjusted for the same rate of weight loss. In my experience (at least with cardio) that's not the case. Can't speak for non-otc "fat burners" though, that's not what I meant.

- Meal timing and meal frequency, (meal timing when done properly this can have dramatic effects on strength and body recomposition)
- Protein / Carb / Fat distribution throughout the day, (again pre/post workout shakes have dramatic effects on body strength and recomposition)

Meal timing around workouts is addressed in an FAQ section which I didn't copy here. In my experience, if you eat enough before the workout to feel strong enough and not intentionally starve yourself of protein after the workout, you're fine. But I also sometimes not even did that and couldn't notice a significant difference.

- Sodium intake, (agreed, unless talking about peaking for a show)

Of course, it's not a prep guide.

[wavelength]

are you serious ? any simple google/pubmed search will turn up tons of pre/post workout studies.
it is not under debate at all - it has been proven.

Yes I am serious. The last time I asked you, you could produce this one study I was talking about. You seem very confident that there are tons of other studies on body composition that show effect of pre and post workout nutrition. I would asume that you have them at hand if you are that confident. Not trying to bash you at all, I'm just curious.

[The True Adonis]

i'll answer this quickly as i have to leave in a few mins. i will address this in greater detail tomorrow.

i have been as heavy as 280lbs and as light as 145 lbs - at 280 i had lots of fat and muscle - classic powerlifter type phyique, at 145lbs i was not as ripped as wave nor adonis have reached, but certainly slim with muscle. i could se abs, but never achieved a '6 pack'.

adonis you are correct i am borderline obsessive compulsive when i read about diet/nutrition/drugs and training and have indeed been searching for the holy grail as you put it.

i am also very much like yourself in terms of experimentation in diet/training and ped use.

i now feel i have all the knowledge required and have indeed found the holy grail in terms of the areas mentioned above. i simply lack the desire/hunger and willpower to apply it all at the moment, not to mention the problems i have been facing over the past few months.

i fully respect and admire both yourself and wave for the results and intellect you both possess and share.

talk later.

I think once you relax your approach and let your obsessiveness subside and dissolve, you will get to EXACTLY where you wish to be.

I think THAT is your only block.  I think that is the block for nearly everyone.  The second guessing and obsessiveness only serve to drive one in a circuitous route.  We all have been there at one point and the real trick is veering off this oval.  Once you do that and set the cruise control with whatever approach you decide, you will succeed.

I know you can succeed easily.

[wavelength]

i fully respect and admire both yourself and wave for the results and intellect you both possess and share.
talk later.

I respect your knowledge and you have been helpful in the past. I just can't write anything in my guide that doesn't match my experience. But I'm always open for new information and suggestions. I actually was thinking about changing the part about nutritional timing around workouts a bit, also after having read Alan's guide to pre- and post-workout nutrition.

[The Master]

I respect your knowledge and you have been helpful in the past. I just can't write anything in my guide that doesn't match my experience. But I'm always open for new information and suggestions. I actually was thinking about changing the part about nutritional timing around workouts a bit, also after having read Alan's guide to pre- and post-workout nutrition.

Debussey thinks you run a chain of porno-stores in Austria.

[wavelength]

Debussey thinks you run a chain of porno-stores in Austria.

Damn I underestimated you data mining skillz.

[The Master]

Damn I underestimated you data mining skillz.

 

Debussey does not data-mine about Getbig at all. Debussey has even deleted all the funny Getbig pics from its computer.

You just give off the "Hans Schnabel from the porno store" vibe.

[johnnynoname]

adonis you are correct i am borderline obsessive compulsive when i read about diet/nutrition/drugs and training and have indeed been searching for the holy grail as you put it.

seriously, what is this holy grail?

you mean, their is something besides efficent/effective workouts and sound diet/lifestyle changes?

[wavelength]

You just give off the "Hans Schnabel from the porno store" vibe.

you're such a charming guy

[The Master]

you're such a charming guy

In real world, Duck hears that quite a lot. It has something to do with that somewhat slick smile that sometimes come up, while never putting all her cards on the table = keeping a bit of mystery around her  

[dr.chimps]

In real world, Duck hears that quite a lot. It has something to do with that somewhat slick smile that sometimes come up, while never putting all her cards on the table = keeping a bit of mystery around her  

LOL. Always keep 'em wanting more. You slut!