Yes I am serious. The last time I asked you, you could produce this one study I was talking about. You seem very confident that there are tons of other studies on body composition that show effect of pre and post workout nutrition. I would asume that you have them at hand if you are that confident. Not trying to bash you at all, I'm just curious.
yes the study you are talking about was the study that compared taking a pro/carb/creatine shake directly before the afternoon w/o with taking it in the morning - with the total daily calories staying equal.
it showed without doubt how effective timing is, as you claimed daily calories were all that mattered, not timing.
Effects of supplement timing and resistance exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy.
Cribb PJ, Hayes A.
Exercise Metabolism Unit, Center for Ageing, Rehabilitation, Exercise and Sport; and the School of Biomedical Sciences, Victoria University, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.
PURPOSE: Some studies report greater muscle hypertrophy during resistance exercise (RE) training from supplement timing (i.e., the strategic consumption of protein and carbohydrate before and/or after each workout). However, no studies have examined whether this strategy provides greater muscle hypertrophy or strength development compared with supplementation at other times during the day. The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of supplement timing compared with supplementation in the hours not close to the workout on muscle-fiber hypertrophy, strength, and body composition during a 10-wk RE program. METHODS: In a single-blind, randomized protocol, resistance-trained males were matched for strength and placed into one of two groups; the PRE-POST group consumed a supplement (1 g x kg(-1) body weight) containing protein/creatine/glucose immediately before and after RE. The MOR-EVE group consumed the same dose of the same supplement in the morning and late evening. All assessments were completed the week before and after 10 wk of structured, supervised RE training. Assessments included strength (1RM, three exercises), body composition (DEXA), and vastus lateralis muscle biopsies for determination of muscle fiber type (I, IIa, IIx), cross-sectional area (CSA), contractile protein, creatine (Cr), and glycogen content. RESULTS: PRE-POST demonstrated a greater (P < 0.05) increase in lean body mass and 1RM strength in two of three assessments. The changes in body composition were supported by a greater (P < 0.05) increase in CSA of the type II fibers and contractile protein content. PRE-POST supplementation also resulted in higher muscle Cr and glycogen values after the training program (P < 0.05). CONCLUSION: Supplement timing represents a simple but effective strategy that enhances the adaptations desired from RE-training.
that study pdf also had 2 other studies showing how effective pre/post drinks are.
i have loads on my external hard drive but here is a few a got on a simple pubmed search.
Nutritional supplementation and resistance exercise: what is the evidence for enhanced skeletal muscle hypertrophy?Gibala MJ.
Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, ON L8S 4K1.
Many athletes and recreational weightlifters believe that dietary manipulations' either following a single bout of resistance exercise or during habitual training may augment the normal gains in muscle fibre hypertrophy. Very few studies, however, have directly examined the effect of nutritional supplementation on muscle protein metabolism after resistance exercise. Ingestion of an amino acid and/or carbohydrate solution during the initial hours following a single bout of resistance exercise promotes an acute increase in protein net balance compared to the fasted state. The precise mechanism involved has not been elucidated but seems related to an increased availability of intracellular amino acids and/or an increase in plasma insulin concentration. As a practical recommendation, therefore, postexercise feeding appears to be very important. Recent evidence suggests that creatine supplementation in conjunction with resistance training may elicit larger increases in muscle fiber cross-sectional area compared to training alone. This intervention may be most beneficial in persons with "compromised" skeletal muscle.
Nutrient administration and resistance training.Kerksick CM, Leutholtz B.
Exercise and Sport Nutrition Laboratory, Center for Exercise, Nutrition and Preventive Health Research, Department of Health, Human Performance and Recreation, Baylor University. Chad_Kerksick@baylor.edu.
ABSTRACT : Skeletal muscle tissue is tightly regulated throughout our bodies by balancing its synthesis and breakdown. Many factors are known to exist that cause profound changes on the overall status of skeletal muscle, some of which include exercise, nutrition, hormonal influences and disease. Muscle hypertrophy results when protein synthesis is greater than protein breakdown. Resistance training is a popular form of exercise that has been shown to increase muscular strength and muscular hypertrophy. In general, resistance training causes a stimulation of protein synthesis as well as an increase in protein breakdown, resulting in a negative balance of protein. Providing nutrients, specifically amino acids, helps to stimulate protein synthesis and improve the overall net balance of protein. Strategies to increase the concentration and availability of amino acids after resistance exercise are of great interest and have been shown to effectively increase overall protein synthesis. 123 After exercise, providing carbohydrate has been shown to mildly stimulate protein synthesis while addition of free amino acids prior to and after exercise, specifically essential amino acids, causes a rapid pronounced increase in protein synthesis as well as protein balance.13 Evidence exists for a dose-response relationship of infused amino acids while no specific regimen exists for optimal dosing upon ingestion. Ingestion of whole or intact protein sources (e.g., protein powders, meal-replacements) has been shown to cause similar improvements in protein balance after resistance exercise when compared to free amino acid supplements. Future research should seek to determine optimal dosing of ingested intact amino acids in addition to identifying the cellular mechanistic machinery (e.g. transcriptional and translational mechanisms) for causing the increase in protein synthesis.
A creatine-protein-carbohydrate supplement enhances responses to resistance training.Cribb PJ, Williams AD, Hayes A.
Exercise Metabolism Unit, Center for Ageing, Rehabilitation, Exercise and Sport and School of Biomedical Sciences, Victoria University, Victoria, Australia.
PURPOSE: Studies attributing gains in strength and lean body mass (LBM) to creatine monohydrate (CrM) during resistance exercise (RE) training have not assessed these changes alongside cellular and subcellular adaptations. Additionally, CrM-treated groups have seldom been compared with a group receiving a placebo similar in nitrogen and energy. The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of a CrM-containing protein-carbohydrate (PRO-CHO) supplement in comparison with a supplement containing a similar amount of nitrogen and energy on body composition, muscle strength, fiber-specific hypertrophy, and contractile protein accrual during RE training. METHODS: In a double-blind, randomized protocol, resistance-trained males were matched for strength and placed into one of three groups: protein (PRO), PRO-CHO, or the same PRO-CHO supplement (1.5 g x kg(-1) body weight x d(-1)) containing CrM (Cr-PRO-CHO) (0.1 g x kg(-1) body weight x d(-1)). Assessments were completed the week before and after a 10-wk structured, supervised RE program: strength (1RM, three exercises), body composition (DEXA), and vastus lateralis muscle biopsies for determination of muscle fiber type (I, IIa, IIx), cross-sectional area (CSA), contractile protein, and creatine content. RESULTS: Cr-PRO-CHO provided greater improvements in 1RM strength. At least 40% of the strength improvements could be attributed to hypertrophy of muscle involved in this exercise. Cr-PRO-CHO also resulted in greater increases in LBM, fiber CSA, and contractile protein compared with PRO and PRO-CHO. CONCLUSIONS: In RE-trained participants, supplementation with Cr-PRO-CHO provided greater muscle hypertrophy than an equivalent dose of PRO-CHO, and this response was apparent at three levels of physiology (LBM, fiber CSA, and contractile protein content).
International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: nutrient timing.Kerksick C, Harvey T, Stout J, Campbell B, Wilborn C, Kreider R, Kalman D, Ziegenfuss T, Lopez H, Landis J, Ivy JL, Antonio J.
Department of Health and Exercise Science, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK 73019, USA. Chad_Kerksick@ou.edu.
Position Statement: The position of the Society regarding nutrient timing and the intake of carbohydrates, proteins, and fats in reference to healthy, exercising individuals is summarized by the following eight points: 1.) Maximal endogenous glycogen stores are best promoted by following a high-glycemic, high-carbohydrate (CHO) diet (600 - 1000 grams CHO or ~8 - 10 g CHO/kg/d), and ingestion of free amino acids and protein (PRO) alone or in combination with CHO before resistance exercise can maximally stimulate protein synthesis. 2.) During exercise, CHO should be consumed at a rate of 30 - 60 grams of CHO/hour in a 6 - 8% CHO solution (8 - 16 fluid ounces) every 10 - 15 minutes. Adding PRO to create a CHO:PRO ratio of 3 - 4:1 may increase endurance performance and maximally promotes glycogen re-synthesis during acute and subsequent bouts of endurance exercise. 3.) Ingesting CHO alone or in combination with PRO during resistance exercise increases muscle glycogen, offsets muscle damage, and facilitates greater training adaptations after either acute or prolonged periods of supplementation with resistance training. 4.) Post-exercise (within 30 minutes) consumption of CHO at high dosages (8 - 10 g CHO/kg/day) have been shown to stimulate muscle glycogen re-synthesis, while adding PRO (0.2 g - 0.5 g PRO/kg/day) to CHO at a ratio of 3 - 4:1 (CHO: PRO) may further enhance glycogen re-synthesis. 5.) Post-exercise ingestion (immediately to 3 h post) of amino acids, primarily essential amino acids, has been shown to stimulate robust increases in muscle protein synthesis, while the addition of CHO may stimulate even greater levels of protein synthesis. Additionally, pre-exercise consumption of a CHO + PRO supplement may result in peak levels of protein synthesis. 6.) During consistent, prolonged resistance training, post-exercise consumption of varying doses of CHO + PRO supplements in varying dosages have been shown to stimulate improvements in strength and body composition when compared to control or placebo conditions. 7.) The addition of creatine (Cr) (0.1 g Cr/kg/day) to a CHO + PRO supplement may facilitate even greater adaptations to resistance training. 8.) Nutrient timing incorporates the use of methodical planning and eating of whole foods, nutrients extracted from food, and other sources. The timing of the energy intake and the ratio of certain ingested macronutrients are likely the attributes which allow for enhanced recovery and tissue repair following high-volume exercise, augmented muscle protein synthesis, and improved mood states when compared with unplanned or traditional strategies of nutrient intake.
I think once you relax your approach and let your obsessiveness subside and dissolve, you will get to EXACTLY where you wish to be.
I think THAT is your only block. I think that is the block for nearly everyone. The second guessing and obsessiveness only serve to drive one in a circuitous route. We all have been there at one point and the real trick is veering off this oval. Once you do that and set the cruise control with whatever approach you decide, you will succeed.
I know you can succeed easily.
thank you, i agree and have been doing just that. I am more focused than ever right now.
i've also lost 39lbs in 9 weeks
seriously, what is this holy grail?
you mean, their is something besides efficent/effective workouts and sound diet/lifestyle changes?
well yes- steroids
only joking.
there are diets that work, and diets that work optimally.
there are workouts that work and workouts that work optimally.
to me the holy grail is finding the optimal versions.
gyms all over the world are full of guys/girls who do good workouts for hours every day, eat right, have a good healthy lifestyle etc but look nowhere near as good.
hollywood stars like hugh jackman, christian bale, brad pitt etc don't just workout a little to look like they do in the movies, they hire professional trainers who know exactly what to do to get them in shape.
ronnie coleman hired chad, dex hired joe mcneil, luke wood hired milos
etc etc
but the basic point i am making and as ta pointed out - all the knowledge in the world is useless unless you apply it, which has been my problem.
wave - which aragon article about pre/post nutrition are you talking about - i too think he is a great mind in this field, and agree entirely with his love of milk for pre/post nutrition.
