Seventh Grader Sues School Over Right to Wear Pro-Life T-Shirt

[OzmO]

If they made uniforms mandatory in public schools it would solve a slew of problems

[Al Doggity]

Did you have a problem with "message hats" etc. at your school?  My kids wear uniforms to school and they're not permitted to wear "message hats," etc. and there is never a problem with kids trying to make political points with their clothes. 

Yes. A few specific examples:
 When I was in grade school, "The Simpsons" was incredibly popular. Because it was considered vulgar by some, the banning of "Simpsons'" apparel became a mild controversy. At the high school I attended, Toronto Maple Leaves' apparel became ridiculously popular a few years before I started going there. When the staff realized why, ML gear became a violation of school dress code. We had an openly gay student in our class. He was picked on a lot and eventually started painting a pink triangle on his hand. A guidance counselor spoke with him about it and eventually a lawsuit came out of it. These are just a few instances that immediately come to mind.

This is a political board.  Thanks for clearing that up.  All I've said in this thread is I'm in favor of school uniforms.  How does that "contradict" posts I've made in the past? 

I've already stated how I see this as contradictory. It really is not rocket science.

I agree with steevo's comments about uniforms. 

I don't agree at all with steevo's ideas on uniforms, but I do agree with his position on parents dressing their kids up in political t-shirts. It echoes one of my earlier posts.

[Al Doggity]

If they made uniforms mandatory in public schools it would solve a slew of problems

Like what?

[Dos Equis]

Yes. A few specific examples:
 When I was in grade school, "The Simpsons" was incredibly popular. Because it was considered vulgar by some, the banning of "Simpsons'" apparel became a mild controversy. At the high school I attended, Toronto Maple Leaves' apparel became ridiculously popular a few years before I started going there. When the staff realized why, ML gear became a violation of school dress code. We had an openly gay student in our class. He was picked on a lot and eventually started painting a pink triangle on his hand. A guidance counselor spoke with him about it and eventually a lawsuit came out of it. These are just a few instances that immediately come to mind.



I've already stated how I see this as contradictory. It really is not rocket science. I don't agree at all with steevo's ideas on uniforms, but I do agree with his position on parents dressing their kids up in political t-shirts. It echoes one of my earlier posts.

Did you have mandatory uniforms or just a dress code? 

You didn't state anything specific regarding my "contradictory" comments.  Here is what you said:

This is the POLITICAL board. You've made your political leanings known here. Your posts in this particular thread seem to contradict posts you've made in the past along with others who fall into your camp. That is what I was pointing out.

I'm asking how my posts contradict anything I've said in the past.  I really have no idea what you're talking about.  Sounds like you don't either.   

[OzmO]

Like what?

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/355951/the_benefits_of_school_uniforms.html?cat=4

http://712educators.about.com/cs/schoolviolence/a/uniforms.htm

2. Potential Benefits of School Uniforms

Preventing gang colors, etc. in schools
Decreasing violence and theft because of clothing and shoes
Instilling discipline among students
Reducing need for administrators and teachers to be 'clothes police' (for example, determining whether shorts are too short, etc.)
Reducing distractions for students
Instilling a sense of community
Helping schools recognize those who do not belong on campus


http://www.ed.gov/updates/uniforms.html

School Uniforms: Where They Are and Why They Work

A safe and disciplined learning environment is the first requirement of a good school. Young people who are safe and secure, who learn basic American values and the essentials of good citizenship, are better students. In response to growing levels of violence in our schools, many parents, teachers, and school officials have come to see school uniforms as one positive and creative way to reduce discipline problems and increase school safety.

They observed that the adoption of school uniform policies can promote school safety, improve discipline, and enhance the learning environment. The potential benefits of school uniforms include:

decreasing violence and theft -- even life-threatening situations -- among students over designer clothing or expensive sneakers;
helping prevent gang members from wearing gang colors and insignia at school;
instilling students with discipline;
helping parents and students resist peer pressure;
helping students concentrate on their school work; and
helping school officials recognize intruders who come to the school.

As a result, many local communities are deciding to adopt school uniform policies as part of an overall program to improve school safety and discipline. California, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Louisiana, Maryland, New York, Tennessee, Utah and Virginia have enacted school uniform regulations. Many large public school systems -- including Baltimore, Cincinnati, Dayton, Detroit, Los Angeles, Long Beach, Miami, Memphis, Milwaukee, Nashville, New Orleans, Phoenix, Seattle and St. Louis -- have schools with either voluntary or mandatory uniform policies, mostly in elementary and middle schools. In addition, many private and parochial schools have required uniforms for a number of years. Still other schools have implemented dress codes to encourage a safe environment by, for example, prohibiting clothes with certain language or gang colors.

[Al Doggity]

Did you have mandatory uniforms or just a dress code? 

You didn't state anything specific regarding my "contradictory" comments.  Here is what you said:


I'm asking how my posts contradict anything I've said in the past.  I really have no idea what you're talking about.  Sounds like you don't either.   

We had mandatory uniforms. Blue or grey pants, matching ties, white shirts, optional vests, blue blazer. Girls- blue and grey plaid skirt, blue blazer.

Earlier:

I'm just kinda blown away (except, I'm not even a little surprised) that so many people who go on and on about our nanny states and  state's rights see the solution to what is ABSOLUTELY a non-issue as giving up choice.

[Al Doggity]

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/355951/the_benefits_of_school_uniforms.html?cat=4

http://712educators.about.com/cs/schoolviolence/a/uniforms.htm

Preventing gang colors, etc. in schools
Decreasing violence and theft because of clothing and shoes
Instilling discipline among students
Reducing need for administrators and teachers to be 'clothes police' (for example, determining whether shorts are too short, etc.)
Reducing distractions for students
Instilling a sense of community
Helping schools recognize those who do not belong on campus

Gang colors is an extremely limited problem. And trust me, kids can still manage to sneak gang colors in at uniform-wearing schools.  I volunteered at a high school here in NY and some of the kids were wearing a New York Yankees cap that was known to be worn by Latin Kings' members. I doubt the kids were actual gang members, but I know they must have been aware of what the hat represented.

Girls constantly challenged administrators with skirt length and various other things: what was considered a radical hair style, when were shoes officially pumps, crap like that.

The third one. I went to a large high school and our dean of discipline was pretty good at recognizing students and proactive in questioning anything he viewed as suspicious. So, uniforms would definitely be better in that regard, but I don't think a well run school necessarily has to be caught with its ass showing.

[OzmO]

Gang colors is an extremely limited problem. And trust me, kids can still manage to sneak gang colors in at uniform-wearing schools.  I volunteered at a high school here in NY and some of the kids were wearing a New York Yankees cap that was known to be worn by Latin Kings' members. I doubt the kids were actual gang members, but I know they must have been aware of what the hat represented.

Girls constantly challenged administrators with skirt length and various other things: what was considered a radical hair style, when were shoes officially pumps, crap like that.

The third one. I went to a large high school and our dean of discipline was pretty good at recognizing students and proactive in questioning anything he viewed as suspicious. So, uniforms would definitely be better in that regard, but I don't think a well run school necessarily has to be caught with its ass showing.

As well as solving some problems, if not completely of course, uniforms also have their benefits.

Uniforms influence conduct, participation, community, etc..

[Al Doggity]

As well as solving some problems, if not completely of course, uniforms also have their benefits.

Uniforms influence conduct, participation, community, etc..

I don't believe they do.

Do you think this applies to prison uniforms, as well?

[Dos Equis]

We had mandatory uniforms. Blue or grey pants, matching ties, white shirts, optional vests, blue blazer. Girls- blue and grey plaid skirt, blue blazer.

Earlier:

You had mandatory uniforms but you could wear "message hats"?  

And where I have gone "on and on about our nanny states and state's rights"?  You just going to make it up as you go along?    Even if I had, that has nothing to do with school uniforms.  This thread probably contains the biggest written discussion I've ever had about school uniforms.  It's not something I'm going to lose any sleep over.    

[OzmO]

I don't believe they do.

Do you think this applies to prison uniforms, as well?

How long you been out of school?  And did you go in a suburb, rural or city?

I think our prisons are so F-ed up that it wouldn't make much of a difference.  However, some warden in AZ made his inmates were pink i heard, and the ACLU was all over it and made him stop.

[Al Doggity]

You had mandatory uniforms but you could wear "message hats"?  

And where I have gone "on and on about our nanny states and state's rights"?  You just going to make it up as you go along?    Even if I had, that has nothing to do with school uniforms.  This thread probably contains the biggest written discussion I've ever had about school uniforms.  It's not something I'm going to lose any sleep over.    

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure you have referred to Obama as a "socialist". I know you criticized Obama for attaching strings to the bail-out some corps. received. You said they should be able to spend the money any way they wanted. I know tony and mimnaugh have both derided Obama as a socialist. There have been other things, but my point wasn't so much contradictions in specific quotes from you three as it was a contradiction to the general philosophy of the right. Isn't the right supposed to be all about personal choice and responsibility? Isn't that why the Dems suck- because they want to take away all your freedoms and baby you?

As for "message hats", we could wear hats on the school premises, but not in the actual school. Even if a hat is not sitting on your head during school hours, it is still of concern to administrators if it is in your possession when you leave and enter the school. 

[Al Doggity]

How long you been out of school?  And did you go in a suburb, rural or city?

I think our prisons are so F-ed up that it wouldn't make much of a difference.  However, some warden in AZ made his inmates were pink i heard, and the ACLU was all over it and made him stop.

I'm 29. I went to high school in a racially mixed- though, predominately white- suburban high school.

[Dos Equis]

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure you have referred to Obama as a "socialist". I know you criticized Obama for attaching strings to the bail-out some corps. received. You said they should be able to spend the money any way they wanted. I know tony and mimnaugh have both derided Obama as a socialist. There have been other things, but my point wasn't so much contradictions in specific quotes from you three as it was a contradiction to the general philosophy of the right. Isn't the right supposed to be all about personal choice and responsibility? Isn't that why the Dems suck- because they want to take away all your freedoms and baby you?

As for "message hats", we could wear hats on the school premises, but not in the actual school. Even if a hat is not sitting on your head during school hours, it is still of concern to administrators if it is in your possession when you leave and enter the school. 

Yes you are wrong.  I have referred to Obama as a "quasi-socialist."    But I'm on the verge of calling him an outright socialist. 

I don't really have much of a "general philosophy" and I don't belong to any political party.  That's why I vote for whomever I want (e.g., Clinton twice, Bush twice).  The "Dems suck" is a little too simplistic for me.  I do not go on the "state's rights" rants.  I don't really care much about the differences between political parties.  I do have a problem with much of what liberals stand for these days, and I think the mindset of many liberals is dangerous, but I'm not a big fan of the current Republican party either.  Both parties are floundering. 

[Hereford]

Beach, why is HI like 90% lib?

When I lived there, it seemed like 90% didn't care....

[24KT]

I remember as a kid I was in the mall getting my name printed on a T-shirt, and their was little guy next to me about 8 yrs old whose mother was buying him a T-shirt. He attened a Catholic elementary school, ...and he wanted the Star Wars poster printed on his shirt. His mom objected. She didn't think the school would approve of his wearing a Star Wars T-shirt ...because of ...believe it or not Princess Leia. She thought the school would deem the Princess Leia as being obscene. I was dumbfounded. She didn't object to the light sabres at all. Weapons that can harm, torture, maim and kill were perfectly ok, ...but show a little flesh... and all hell breaks loose. 



This wasn't the actual image he wanted on his T-shirt, but it was close. The one he wanted was more similar to the spoof one below,




and Princess Leia was off to the right, very, very tiny, ...but she was flashing a tiny bit of leg... from the kneee down. I was surprised that she even saw it. I remember the poor guy at the T-shirt shack was having a hard time figuring out why she found it so objectionable, ...and she was too embarrassed to even point it out. She gestured to it about 4 times with the pen, but was scared to get closed to it, ...as if pointing out a piece of flesh would corrupt & pollute her soul for eternity. And I really remember the look of disapointment on the little kid's face because he couldn't get his Star Wars T-shirt. 

[Al Doggity]

Yes you are wrong.  I have referred to Obama as a "quasi-socialist."    But I'm on the verge of calling him an outright socialist. 

I don't really have much of a "general philosophy" and I don't belong to any political party.  That's why I vote for whomever I want (e.g., Clinton twice, Bush twice).  The "Dems suck" is a little too simplistic for me.  I do not go on the "state's rights" rants.  I don't really care much about the differences between political parties.  I do have a problem with much of what liberals stand for these days, and I think the mindset of many liberals is dangerous, but I'm not a big fan of the current Republican party either.  Both parties are floundering. 

I think that this is largely hogwash. The political views you post on here are almost uniformly right-leaning and you've posted that "conservatives are happier than libs" meme at least four times that I can think of. In at least two separate discussions, you alluded to the fact that you shared political views with HH6, a devout conservative. While you may not be a registered Republican, it's apparent from your posts that most of your political views are conservative.

In light of that, I will reiterate what I said in my last post. The contradiction (as I see it) wasn't so much in regards to a specific post from any of you three, but the common political leanings among you all.

[Dos Equis]

Beach, why is HI like 90% lib?

When I lived there, it seemed like 90% didn't care....

I can't explain it Hereford.  We have been a one party state pretty much since statehood.  We elected our first Republican Gov in over 40 years back in 2002 and she has been fantastic.  The state legislature has, I believe, two Republicans in the Senate and four in the House.  All four of our D.C. reps are Democrats.  And these are the "tax and spend" liberal Democrats.  They have been bad for the business community.

People do care a lot about politics here, but most of our politics is local, so we deal with different issues, like losing Superferry.    Like that stupid cell phone ban on Oahu.    Like the furlough controversy that has been dominating the news here.  

[Dos Equis]

I think that this is largely hogwash. The political views you post on here are almost uniformly right-leaning and you've posted that "conservatives are happier than libs" meme at least four times that I can think of. In at least two separate discussions, you alluded to the fact that you shared political views with HH6, a devout conservative. While you may not be a registered Republican, it's apparent from your posts that most of your political views are conservative.

In light of that, I will reiterate what I said in my last post. The contradiction (as I see it) wasn't so much in regards to a specific post from any of you three, but the common political leanings among you all.

Ah so what.  You shouldn't be so caught up on labeling people.  What a pointless exercise.  I admittedly label some as liberal, conservative, etc., but I certainly don't typically keep tallies of peoples views on issues.   

I created a "conservatives are happier than libs" topic at least four times?  I'm calling horse manure on that one.  I could be wrong, but I recall making two threads that posted polls/commentary about whether conservatives are happier than liberals.  But so what?  Conservatives probably are happier than liberals.  What the heck difference does that make when it comes to my political views? 

lol . . . So I alluded to sharing HH6's political views?  And when was this?  We actually disagree on a number of issues, but I respect the heck out of him, what he does, and what he stands for. 

As I said before, and this horse is about dead so you can have the last word, I don't have a general philosophy, don't care if you or anyone else thinks I do have one, and I'll continue to vote, speak, etc. on issues by calling things as I see them. 

[Al Doggity]

Ah so what.  You shouldn't be so caught up on labeling people.  What a pointless exercise.  I admittedly label some as liberal, conservative, etc., but I certainly don't typically keep tallies of peoples views on issues.   

Yes you do:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=131390.msg1866671#msg1866671

Oh phooey.  A "true Republican" adheres to Ronald Reagan's Eleventh Commandment, which you break every day on this board.  A "true Republican" supports his party through thick and thin and doesn't flush his vote down the toilet by voting for a "Libertarian," which in turn makes it more likely a Democrat will win.  You are a phony baloney, disloyal "Republican."  A liberal if I ever saw one. 

And get your facts straight.  I am a two-time Clinton voter.   

Here's a painfully ironic post directed at jaguarenterprises from the same thread :

You are right that I don't know for a fact what your political persuasion is.  I just have opinion (that you're a liberal), which obviously could be right or wrong.  As I said in this string, you have conservative leanings when it comes to business.  But that's about all I've seen.  You impress me as pretty much a bleeding heart, which I don't mean as an insult.  One of my closest friends is a bleeding heart liberal.  Her husband is in Iraq, and she hates Bush.  I have no problem with her politics, or yours.  I do have a problem with all the American hating, but I don't we'll ever agree on that.   

And you agree with 240?  Shocking.    

(BTW, you can choose to believe that I spent the hours between this and your last post sitting in front of my computer, scouring old posts for an out-of-context quote. However, I've actually been at dinner. This is one of MANY posts from you that popped up after a two minute search using keywords like "libertarian" and "republican".  I was actually pretty shocked that such blatant counter-examples to your last post existed. I was actually just searching for some quotes from  you calling 240 a ct nut.)

[Dos Equis]

Yes you do:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=131390.msg1866671#msg1866671
 
Here's a painfully ironic post directed at jaguarenterprises from the same thread :



(BTW, you can choose to believe that I spent the hours between this and your last post sitting in front of my computer, scouring old posts for an out-of-context quote. However, I've actually been at dinner. This is one of MANY posts from you that popped up after a two minute search using keywords like "libertarian" and "republican".  I was actually pretty shocked that such blatant counter-examples to your last post existed. I was actually just searching for some quotes from  you calling 240 a ct nut.)

Oh this is comical.  So I say that I "admittedly label some as liberal, conservative, etc. but I certainly don't typically keep tallies of peoples views on issues."  And to disprove this statement (i.e., that I either routinely or always do this), and keeping in mind that I post on this board darn near every day, you find a couple of two-year-old statements made to 240 and jag?  lol . . . .  You're smarter than that Al.  This is one of those fish in the barrel moments.   

And if you're going to search my old posts, you should plug in "phoney baloney Republican."  I'm sure I've said that more than once.     And note that the overwhelming majority of my statements regarding self-professed Republicans were probably directed to the same person.  (But feel free to clarify, because I haven't searched my old posts.)

Since you're searching through my two-year old posts, where are the four or more threads I created about liberals being happier than conservatives?  lol . . . .   

[Al Doggity]

I didn't say you started four threads about conservatives being happier. I said you made at least four separate posts stating virtually the same thing. 

My point in posting those old quotes was not to show that you "routinely or always" label people, it was to show that in a similar situation, you engaged in the same "pointless exercise" that I did... or, for that matter, any person with a functioning brain would. It's not a matter of keeping tallies of the political views of others. As you stated, you post on this board virtually every day, often in threads I follow. Just from the sheer volume of posts you make, it would be impossible not to be familiar with your political views.  The beauty of the quote is that it specifically shows you doing two things which you attempt to deride me for doing: labeling people and keeping a tally of their political views. The age of the quotes is irrelevant. I simply chose those because they were such glaring examples.

[Dos Equis]

I didn't say you started four threads about conservatives being happier. I said you made at least four separate posts stating virtually the same thing. 

My point in posting those old quotes was not to show that you "routinely or always" label people, it was to show that in a similar situation, you engaged in the same "pointless exercise" that I did... or, for that matter, any person with a functioning brain would. It's not a matter of keeping tallies of the political views of others. As you stated, you post on this board virtually every day, often in threads I follow. Just from the sheer volume of posts you make, it would be impossible not to be familiar with your political views.  The beauty of the quote is that it specifically shows you doing two things which you attempt to deride me for doing: labeling people and keeping a tally of their political views. The age of the quotes is irrelevant. I simply chose those because they were such glaring examples.

I'm sure I've made at least four separate posts about lots of things.  Which again proves nothing. 

You didn't make a point.  I actually conceded that I do label people sometimes.  So the fact you found two-year-old statements, out of the thousands of posts I've made on this board, which actually confirmed what I already admitted, did nothing more than confirm my statement.

I often deride people for engaging in ad hominem, but I do that on ocassion too.  (Here is the part where you find some of my ad hominem statements to confirm what I just said.)  That really has nothing to do with whether it's useful or a poor communication/discussion technique.  Just as trying to label someone you don't even know is still pointless, whether I occasionally engage in the some exercise or not. 

What's funny is you are perplexed by me expressing viewpoints that don't fit into the little box you've tried to put me in, which should tell you there is something wrong with your box.

[Al Doggity]

 When you appear to be tacitly including yourself in that group, it does prove something. Unless you were trying to point out that you were unhappy when you said you believed those studies? Your recycling of the statement and the contexts in which you re-used it seemed to indicate that you considered yourself a part of the preternaturally happy conservative movement. Of course, there is always the completely believable and reasonable possibility that you were just throwing that statement out there at random.

You conceded that you do label people, but you denied that you kept a tally of their political beliefs. So, yes, I actually did make a point. But the larger point (which you also aggressively missed) wasn't so much the labeling and tallying, it was the labeling and tallying subsequent to reading multiple posts... which is inevitable. How does paying attention to what someone repeatedly says and referencing those statements in later conversations constitute poor communication technique?

What's funny is you are perplexed by me expressing viewpoints that don't fit into the little box you've tried to put me in, which should tell you there is something wrong with your box.

Except it's not a problem with the box. Everyone else in the box holds the same political leaning and supports the same contradiction. That's the only reason it jumped out at me. It's a problem with the viewpoint.

[Dos Equis]

When you appear to be tacitly including yourself in that group, it does prove something. Unless you were trying to point out that you were unhappy when you said you believed those studies? Your recycling of the statement and the contexts in which you re-used it seemed to indicate that you considered yourself a part of the preternaturally happy conservative movement. Of course, there is always the completely believable and reasonable possibility that you were just throwing that statement out there at random.

You conceded that you do label people, but you denied that you kept a tally of their political beliefs. So, yes, I actually did make a point. But the larger point (which you also aggressively missed) wasn't so much the labeling and tallying, it was the labeling and tallying subsequent to reading multiple posts... which is inevitable. How does paying attention to what someone repeatedly says and referencing those statements in later conversations constitute poor communication technique?

Except it's not a problem with the box. Everyone else in the box holds the same political leaning and supports the same contradiction. That's the only reason it jumped out at me. It's a problem with the viewpoint.

lol.  So now I am "tacitly" making points.  This is precisely the kind of pointless stuff I was talking about.  You read a few posts, try and find some hidden meaning, then make an assumption, repeat it as fact, etc.  That's funny.  I've never claimed to be happier than liberals or conservatives, although I am a very happy person.  My happiness has nothing to do with my political views.   And I certainly do go around comparing my happiness to others.   

I post topics all the time, the overwhelming majority of the time because I find them interesting, or I think some others might find them interesting.  But people struggling to maintain their own comfortable level with labels will try and find some “tacit” motive.   

Then you say:  "You conceded that you do label people, but you denied that you kept a tally of their political beliefs. So, yes, I actually did make a point."

Buzzzzzz!     What I actually said was:

I admittedly label some as liberal, conservative, etc., but I certainly don't typically keep tallies of peoples views on issues.   

Very important to pay attention to detail when you're trying to keep people in the box. 

And yes, there is a problem with the box.  The notion that I express a view that is somehow inconsistent with what YOU believe is my "general philosophy" is just ridiculous.  But to each his own.