letro + HCG for PCT?

[theworm]

posted my stats several times,

basically, 30 years old, third cycle

600 cyp x 10 weeks and 50mg drol x 4 weeks

already have some gyno, so was going to add letro.

then do PCT with HCT and continue letro throught the PCT period.... think thats sufficient for PCT?  or would one absolutely need clomid or nolva as well?
 

[shrek]

the only way you would know if you absolutely need clomid and nolva during PCT is from past experience IMO i would run the basic PCT all the time just in case

[tbombz]

letro is a piss poor drug for bodybuilders.

[CAPTAIN INSANO]

letro is a piss poor drug for bodybuilders.

I ran it..and hated it..

Didn't even need to.

I use Masteron on my tren cycle now. No Prog. or estro sides

[theworm]

letro is a piss poor drug for bodybuilders.

care to explain?  others are saying its the best anti-E there is...

i know you want estrogen tbomz, but if someone has gyno and does not want more, its prop best to use, correct?

[shrek]

look letro works great he is a dipshit to say that........ i know for a fact letro will zap your upcoming gyno just dont take high dosages of it 1/2 a tab 3x week is fine if you dont want to run it through out the entire cycle and only when your nips start to itch it will definitely zap that shit with a few tabs in a week also know that form experience...... i run adex 1/2 tab 3x week and that keeps my existing gyno in check also

[Luv2Hurt]

look letro works great he is a dipshit to say that........ i know for a fact letro will zap your upcoming gyno just dont take high dosages of it 1/2 a tab 3x week is fine if you dont want to run it through out the entire cycle and only when your nips start to itch it will definitely zap that shit with a few tabs in a week also know that form experience...... i run adex 1/2 tab 3x week and that keeps my existing gyno in check also

Very true letro is an excellent AI, widely used by people who do in fact get in shape, not just "theorize" about it.  The self admitted asexual (it does not what that means either, but says it is) one can not give you any reason otherwise.

[shrek]

Very true letro is an excellent AI, widely used by people who do in fact get in shape, not just "theorize" about it.  The self admitted asexual (it does not what that means either, but says it is) one can not give you any reason otherwise.

thats true the THEORY BULLSHIT needs to go out the window

[tbombz]

care to explain?  others are saying its the best anti-E there is...

i know you want estrogen tbomz, but if someone has gyno and does not want more, its prop best to use, correct?

well, letro is a super strong aromatase inhibitor. thats true. the strongest one available.

but that doesnt necessarily mean its a good drug.

its not necessarily the strength of the AI that matters...because one can always adjust a drugs strength by adgusting the doseage used... (use more if its weaker use less if its stronger)... 


what matters is the ttype of aromatase inhibitor. theres not just one ESTROIGEN...ITS NOT A SINGULAR HORMONE..ESTROGEN IS THE GENERAL TERM FOR THREE SPECIFIC ESTROGENS... AND EACH ON ACTS A BIT DIFFERENT IN THE BODY....

WITHOUT GOING INTO SPECIFICS...LETRO IS A CERTAIN TYPE OF ai, INHIBITING THE FORMATION OF ONE TYPE OF ESTROGEN BUT ALLOWING ANOTHER. while aromasin is a different type , and adex is even different....

you want to use the durg which keeps the estrogens which are beneficial but eliminates the estrogens which arent beneficial...


long story short, letro gets rid of the estrgen you would preferentially want to keep, while doing nothing about the estrogen you woul preferentially get rid of..




which means out of all the AI, its a "piss poor drug"...

[dustin]

I was also going to say switch the letro for aromasin. You don't want to eradicate estrogen during PCT. Your body's hormones go out of whack because they're kickstarting themselves up again. PCT is simply an application of fertility drugs to AID this process. Post-Cycle-Therapy is an AID. Your body recovers by itself - don't fuck it up or get in it's way.

One undesirable affect of recovery is that sometimes, most of the time, estrogen seems to shoot way up and testosterone takes a long time to be produced. By using drugs that stimulate the production of leutinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone, testosterone will inherently come into production. Lets also remember to appreciate estrogen. It's pivotal for the libido and level of sexual desire among other things. You don't want to just eradicate all estrogen, you want to limit some estrogens selectively.

Aromasin does the trick better than arimidex or letro because it is selective (type-I AI) steroidal aromatase inhibitor. It does things like lower SHBG which inherently ups your free test, is synergistic with nolvadex as it's bone mineral sparing and non destructive to the lipid profile, etc. While it's bad for female cancer patients that it can cause IGF-1 to rise, it's beneficial for us as bodybuilders during PCT. Especially when using other fertility drugs like SERMs (especially nolvadex) which cause IGF-1 to fall. Kind of bad if you have gyno though because growth factors are a piece of the gyno puzzle. But that's a different discussion. I don't think it's a very big detriment however.

[dexterJ]

use only clomids and hcg and give body time to recover..

[dustin]

use only clomids and hcg and give body time to recover..

The one big downside to clomid usage is that it can really send people plummeting into depression. I had used it and cried for the first time in years... over nothing in particular as well. I was walking to my mother's house to feed our dog, looked up at some leaves and couldn't fight the water works. A friend of mine cried in the movie theater during a childrens movie. Thankfully I only had a few extremely quick bouts of depression during PCT but God damn it was awkward. 20 minutes later I was back to my regular self after each episode. For some it can last a lot longer.

Something like aromasin can be a little helpful as it frees up bound test, thereby allowing there to be more androgens in relation to estrogens. I like herbal test boosters with stuff like longjack extracts, mucuna pruriens and 3, 4-Divanillyltetrahydrofuran (a standardized extract from stinging nettle that does a great job at releasing bound test!). This really allows your body to continue reaching homeostasis without direct interruption - these sorts of practices will not inhibit GnRH and cause negative-feedback loop controls spiraling off course and set you back.

A lot of people don't really understand what they're doing when it's time to run "PCT" so they let the locker room propaganda dictate their way of thinking. It's been exaggerated, misunderstood and people pay up the ass for all these PCT ancillaries. It's a good life selling steroids and ancillaries with all these scare tactics floating about. Run a few fertility drugs, maybe a herbal test booster (only time I'd ever advocate one - doesn't do much for regular Joes) and you'll be good to go in no time.

[Luv2Hurt]

well, letro is a super strong aromatase inhibitor. thats true. the strongest one available.

but that doesnt necessarily mean its a good drug.

its not necessarily the strength of the AI that matters...because one can always adjust a drugs strength by adgusting the doseage used... (use more if its weaker use less if its stronger)... 


what matters is the ttype of aromatase inhibitor. theres not just one ESTROIGEN...ITS NOT A SINGULAR HORMONE..ESTROGEN IS THE GENERAL TERM FOR THREE SPECIFIC ESTROGENS... AND EACH ON ACTS A BIT DIFFERENT IN THE BODY....

WITHOUT GOING INTO SPECIFICS...LETRO IS A CERTAIN TYPE OF ai, INHIBITING THE FORMATION OF ONE TYPE OF ESTROGEN BUT ALLOWING ANOTHER. while aromasin is a different type , and adex is even different....

you want to use the durg which keeps the estrogens which are beneficial but eliminates the estrogens which arent beneficial...


long story short, letro gets rid of the estrgen you would preferentially want to keep, while doing nothing about the estrogen you woul preferentially get rid of..




which means out of all the AI, its a "piss poor drug"...

Anything more than you talking to back up your statements?

[tbombz]

Anything more than you talking to back up your statements?

sure

aromasin(exemestane)..........and also ATD(Gaspari's novadex xt consists of ATD)




http://www.afboard.com/forum/anafit-supplement-discussion/869-arimedex-vs-aifm.html


when it comes to this comparison its more about type of estrogen suppression as opposed to "strength". Arimidex is a VERY potent sulfatase inhibitor, which inhibits estrone. It is a moderately strong aromatase inhibitor (weak as compared to aromasin, AIFM or letrozole). This is fine for women with breast cancer who produce percentage wise very high levels of estrone (the weak estrogen), which can be converted to estradiol (the strong estrogen) via aromatase.

For men this is generally not very good, especially for men on TRT since sulfatase inhibitors have very little effect on exogenous testosterone. Actually its generally not a good thing since it nearly completely eliminates estrone, while still allowing estradiol. If you have a choice as a man, you want estrone (weak estrogen) with near total elimination of estradiol (strong). AIFM and aromasin do inhibit sulfatase, though to a lesser extent than the competitive inhibitors (dex and letro). They are both potent aromatase inhibitors and highly suppress estradiol. Since exogenous test converts to estradiol via aromatase, AIFM and aromasin are much better suited.




and thats the science part...... now heres soem street cred =

[Luv2Hurt]

sure

Those are not scientific studies, they are the opinion of an internet poster.  So basically those are the thoughts of another message board member.
Maybe the guy is a scientist and drug/researcher/endocrine specialist but I really don't think so, seems intelligent but those "facts" have no basis in science.  Reading it again also seems to point out his confussion or lack of real reasons that these certain estrogen's are desired or not desired. It, his conclusions for the most seem arbitrary and estimated, with the reader having to put total trust in his statements alone. 

Thank you for the post.

[theworm]

so whats the bottom line?  test + anadrol, with preexisting gyno... whice anti-E do I want?

[tbombz]

Those are not scientific studies, they are the opinion of an internet poster.  So basically those are the thoughts of another message board member.
Maybe the guy is a scientist and drug/researcher/endocrine specialist but I really don't think so, seems intelligent but those "facts" have no basis in science.  Reading it again also seems to point out his confussion or lack of real reasons that these certain estrogen's are desired or not desired. It, his conclusions for the most seem arbitrary and estimated, with the reader having to put total trust in his statements alone. 

Thank you for the post.

which part are you having trouble with ? ill point you in the right direction

[dustin]

so whats the bottom line?  test + anadrol, with preexisting gyno... whice anti-E do I want?

I'd try a little arimidex. If your gyno is getting out of control using something stronger like letro followed by aromasin.

[shrek]

so whats the bottom line?  test + anadrol, with preexisting gyno... whice anti-E do I want?

worm trust me order letro adex and nolva you will also need an AI during your PCT i did and i also have preexisting gyno

[tbombz]

worm trust me order letro adex and nolva you will also need an AI during your PCT i did and i also have preexisting gyno

letro adex and nolva? 

whats your thought process on using both letro and adex at the same time.. ?

[Luv2Hurt]

which part are you having trouble with ? ill point you in the right direction

Well bomz I think the part I'm not getting is the part where you say these 3rd gen AIs are selective in the types of E that they prevent.  And also the significance of wanting various types of E in your system during an extreme phase while trying to achieve a certain level conditioning.

I could not agree more with the fact that that the male body is closer to or in homeostasis with the right level of E.  damn I feel better when I have some E floating around myself, because thats the way it is intended.

But if someone is trying to drop estrogenic sides (water and fat retention) then the elimination of E supports this.  Yes someone can be in decent shape with a bit of E floating around, but with supralogical doses of T aromatase goes thru the roof and therefore E.  So if you are trying to get into the 4-5% bodyfat range while trying to maintain muscle this will not happen with out strict control of E and its insidious sides.

Now if someone is trying to put on some size or just wants to look better for summer and get in the 8-10% BF range sure try and get away with as little E control as your body allows.

[shrek]

letro adex and nolva? 

whats your thought process on using both letro and adex at the same time.. ?

well last run i was useing adex 1/2 tab 3xweeks but after a while my nippies and hard tissue would start to get irritated so i would take letro for about 3-4 days and it would clear them up i know that normally you would use one or the other but thats what worked for me so this go round i am doing a different method i am usinfg 1/2 tab 3xweek adex and 20 mgs nolva a day.. my thoughts would be reduceing the estro level in the body while also blocking the receptors so the left over estro wont bind

[4thAD]

I agree with Dustin. Aromasin is a way better choice for PCT than letro. HCG should be run during your cycle, but if your running it for PCT that will work also. I would also run some nolva, or preferably clomid if you can take it. Some say clomid is the Devil. Personally I like it better than nolva.

[theworm]

ok, but getting novla, clomid, letro, and others gets expensive.

i already have HCG, so I plan on using that post cycle.

I am trying to get a good anti-E than I can use with pre-existing gyno, that can be continued throughout the PCT.

[dustin]

ok, but getting novla, clomid, letro, and others gets expensive.

i already have HCG, so I plan on using that post cycle.

I am trying to get a good anti-E than I can use with pre-existing gyno, that can be continued throughout the PCT.

A good all-around AI would have me choosing between arimidex and aromasin. Letro is potent and should be used as a last resort. I find that arimidex is a little more forgiving. And worse come worse, you could ramp up the arimidex with nolva. Although aromasin can technically be observed as "reversibly-binding" AI and does not permanently occupy aromatase, it is so aggressive in it's nature that if it leaves it retards aromatase... basically if it doesn't get the job done, it sure as hell fucks shit up and leaves destruction in it's wake.

Only problem with these eccentric AIs is that they're over priced, underdosed or faked outright. I suspect that a lot of f*gs use tamoxifen powders and other AIs because they're so much cheaper. Be careful where you purchase your shit from. Also, if money's tight then don't worry about it. It's a good investment. Have a myriad of SERMs and AIs at your disposal and see what works. You never know when it may come in handy. Nolvadex/tamoxifen citrate is not the be-all end-all like it's been touted for years and years.