Author Topic: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???  (Read 16909 times)

wavelength

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #125 on: July 11, 2009, 12:07:39 PM »
These are merely hypothesis that are yet to be tested with the technology and equations we have.  Nothing mystic, supernatural or spiritual or out of the realms of Science.  Hawking has gone to 11 dimensions.  He didn`t just claim it.  He backed with theoretical physics and equations. Just as Dark Matter and the Multiverse theory are being posited.  They are not merely based on whims. Carl Sagan wonderfully explains the 4th dimension here:

That's why I said "certain models". I know of other models with more dimensions. That's not the point. Hawkins himself made the following statements (I can also provide the exact quotes, these are just analogous quotes as I remember them):

A scientifc theory is (nothing more than) a mathematical model.
We cannot say what time (or space) actually is.
For a scientist, the question of existence has no meaning.
As scientists, we cannot determine what is real.

I never said that scientific theories are whims. They are what they are: scientific theories describing certain aspects of reality within certain scientific models of reality.

The Master

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #126 on: July 11, 2009, 12:08:50 PM »
Mathematics and physics = for fags and computerclub members.

The True Adonis

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #127 on: July 11, 2009, 12:10:06 PM »
That's why I said "certain models". I know of other models with more dimensions. That's not the point. Hawkins himself made the following statements (I can also provide the exact quotes, these are just analogous quotes as I remember them):

A scientifc theory is (nothing more than) a mathematical model.
We cannot say what time (or space) actually is.
For a scientist, the question of existence has no meaning.
As scientists, we cannot determine what is real.

I never said that scientific theories are whims. They are what they are: scientific theories describing certain aspects of reality within certain scientific models of reality.
I am still wondering where you insert the "spiritual" or "supernatural" in all of this.

wavelength

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #128 on: July 11, 2009, 12:26:21 PM »
I am still wondering where you insert the "spiritual" or "supernatural" in all of this.

That's a valid question of course. The problem is that first we have to come to common ground on the body of thought that must be used to discuss such topics. As long as we are pure natural scientists, such questions must not even arise. For a scientist, there should never be a distinction between the "natural" and the "supernatural". He is only concerned about what he can observe and how it translates into scientific theories. Whether the observations he makes are classified "natural" or "supernatural" is completely irrelevant to him.

So what scientific positivists (like e.g. Dawkins) really mean when they talk about the "supernatural" is in fact just scientific superstition, as e.g. the whole concept of "inteligent design". The "supernatural" in such theories is of course to be dismissed by any serious scientist. Scientific positivists tend to make the mistake of thinking the difference between "natural" and "supernatural" is in fact the difference between "within the scientifc realm" and "without the scientific realm". In this case however, as mentioned before, they can say absolutely nothing about the latter.

The point is that natural science explains neither the "natural" nor the "supernatural" in it's entirety. This distinction (if it is made at all) can only be made in the philosophic realm in the first place.

The True Adonis

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #129 on: July 11, 2009, 12:38:04 PM »
That's a valid question of course. The problem is that first we have to come to common ground on the body of thought that must be used to discuss such topics. As long as we are pure natural scientists, such questions must not even arise. For a scientist, there should never be a distinction between the "natural" and the "supernatural". He is only concerned about what he can observe and how it translates into scientific theories. Whether the observations he makes are classified "natural" or "supernatural" is completely irrelevant to him.

So what scientific positivists (like e.g. Dawkins) really mean when they talk about the "supernatural" is in fact just scientific superstition, as e.g. the whole concept of "inteligent design". The "supernatural" in such theories is of course to be dismissed by any serious scientist. Scientific positivists tend to make the mistake of thinking the difference between "natural" and "supernatural" is in fact the difference between "within the scientifc realm" and "without the scientific realm". In this case however, as mentioned before, they can say absolutely nothing about the latter.

The point is that natural science explains neither the "natural" nor the "supernatural" in it's entirety. This distinction (if it is made at all) can only be made in the philosophic realm in the first place.
What do you mean "they can say absolutely nothing about the latter"?  That doesn`t make much sense without any examples.
You still have yet to clarify something "out of the scientific realm".   Again, just because we cannot test something or lack the technology to do so as of yet does not mean you ascribe it as "supernatural" or "out of the realm" or "mystical".  It is completely within reason to say, "we are still working on defining that, understanding that or developing a method that explains X".  It is also reasonable to say, "we don`t know yet".  But it is utterly nonsensical to posit it as "unknowable" or "spiritual".

Mars

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #130 on: July 11, 2009, 12:52:48 PM »
i cant understand a thing about what these guys say here.

whataname

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #131 on: July 11, 2009, 12:53:22 PM »
Back to the original issue:
I am sure the one in the middle smells good!


The Master

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #132 on: July 11, 2009, 12:53:33 PM »
i cant understand a thing about what these guys say here.

Debussey can't either. It's all gibberish for nerds >:(

wavelength

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #133 on: July 11, 2009, 12:54:02 PM »
What do you mean "they can say absolutely nothing about the latter"?  That doesn`t make much sense without any examples.
You still have yet to clarify something "out of the scientific realm".   Again, just because we cannot test something or lack the technology to do so as of yet does not mean you ascribe it as "supernatural" or "out of the realm" or "mystical".  It is completely within reason to say, "we are still working on defining that, understanding that or developing a method that explains X".  It is also reasonable to say, "we don`t know yet".  But it is utterly nonsensical to posit it as "unknowable" or "spiritual".

I already provided an example: space and time, which e.g. Hawkins agrees with. There are of course many philosophic attempts to explain what space and time are, e.g. by Kant, who came to the conclusion that they are the pure forms of human perception. In any case, these philosophic explanations do not in any way compete with scientific theories concerning only certain scientific aspects of space and time as formulated in the used scientific models.

The point is not what new scientific theories might reveal in the future. It's a matter of principle. Whatever new scientific theories will arise, they are always confined to the same concepts and restrictions, or as Hawkins would put it: a scientist is not concerned with what is real, that is not a scientific topic.

Scientifically observable phenomena which cannot yet be formulated into scientific theories are just that of course. There is absolutely nothing mystical or spiritual about them, I fully agree with that.

wavelength

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #134 on: July 11, 2009, 12:55:05 PM »
Debussey can't either. It's all gibberish for nerds >:(

I'm pretty sure you read "Universe in a Nutshell", the quotes are from this book. :)

The Master

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #135 on: July 11, 2009, 12:57:37 PM »
I'm pretty sure you read "Universe in a Nutshell", the quotes are from this book. :)

Debussey understands NOTHING >:(

It can barely read, and has only read 2 books its entire life.

 >:(

wavelength

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #136 on: July 11, 2009, 01:01:38 PM »
Debussey understands NOTHING >:(

It can barely read, and has only read 2 books its entire life.

 >:(

name them

The True Adonis

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #137 on: July 11, 2009, 01:03:35 PM »
I already provided an example: space and time, which e.g. Hawkins agrees with. There are of course many philosophic attempts to explain what space and time are, e.g. by Kant, who came to the conclusion that they are the pure forms of human perception. In any case, these philosophic explanations do not in any way compete with scientific theories concerning only certain scientific aspects of space and time as formulated in the used scientific models.

The point is not what new scientific theories might reveal in the future. It's a matter of principle. Whatever new scientific theories will arise, they are always confined to the same concepts and restrictions, or as Hawkins would put it: a scientist is not concerned with what is real, that is not a scientific topic.

Scientifically observable phenomena which cannot yet be formulated into scientific theories are just that of course. There is absolutely nothing mystical or spiritual about them, I fully agree with that.
So what is it that we were disagreeing about?  :D

The Master

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #138 on: July 11, 2009, 01:04:09 PM »
name them


They were 2 Donald Duck pocket books >:(

The True Adonis

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #139 on: July 11, 2009, 01:06:38 PM »
I'm pretty sure you read "Universe in a Nutshell", the quotes are from this book. :)
I re-read that a few months ago as I got the new updated edition.  What irks me is how so many people misquote him and try to use him in some sort of "spiritual" way or pertaining to "god".

They try the same nonsense with Einstein and I am not going to have it!  >:(

BanksMcgee

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #140 on: July 11, 2009, 01:08:05 PM »
I leave for a few hours and you sons of bitches leave me with 6 pages of catching up to do. Aside from TrueAdonis and Wavelength it has been stated that muslims can have alcohol on their skin. Then why the bad body odor? is it a cultural thing? or is it one of those things that they are not made aware of by outside cultures? Just like white people didn't know they couldn't dance untill someone had the balls to tell them.
-BM

BanksMcgee

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #141 on: July 11, 2009, 01:09:36 PM »
i think muslims should bomb building and christians should burn women with red hair
oldschool bitch!

I think you are heavily intoxicated!
-BM

wavelength

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #142 on: July 11, 2009, 01:10:02 PM »
So what is it that we were disagreeing about?  :D

Well, about the possibility of anything spiritual in general and particularly what body of thought would be needed to make statements on the subject.
If we have agreed upon the fact that such topics can only be discussed in the philosophic realm, one could of course argue (philosophically) for or against e.g. the existence of God, etc. I just made an argument against the notion that science would provide any evidence for or against the spiritual, which clearly it cannot.

wavelength

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #143 on: July 11, 2009, 01:12:07 PM »
I re-read that a few months ago as I got the new updated edition.  What irks me is how so many people misquote him and try to use him in some sort of "spiritual" way or pertaining to "god".

They try the same nonsense with Einstein and I am not going to have it!  >:(

He is a scientific positivist, no doubt about that. He contradicts himself many times in the book (basically whenever he becomes a pseudo-philospher without noticing), but the quotes I presented are legit.

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #144 on: July 11, 2009, 01:12:13 PM »
Your people are morons.  Sorry.  Americans have their batshit  Christian idiots, but your people take it to a whole new level.  What is ironic, you both worship the same Fairy in the sky yet do not find any common ground as you fight over which dead zombie is or is not the fairies son.

I can`t believe how many fall for this nonsense.

Surely the Muslims who seek Nuclear Weapons know that Uranium has a half-life of 4.47 billion years.

HAHAHAHAHAHA Agreed. Half-life and carbon-14 are anti-evolutionist greatest "enemies" ;D

Mars

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #145 on: July 11, 2009, 01:12:52 PM »
im catching up with your mom almost, shes scrawling to reach the phone haha.

Mr Nobody

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #146 on: July 11, 2009, 01:15:25 PM »
im catching up with your mom almost, shes scrawling to reach the phone haha.
mars need porno pics to lighten things up here

BanksMcgee

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #147 on: July 11, 2009, 01:18:26 PM »
im catching up with your mom almost, shes scrawling to reach the phone haha.

Good one, i'm dying from laughter.....you really got me this time.
-BM

The True Adonis

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #148 on: July 11, 2009, 01:20:59 PM »
Well, about the possibility of anything spiritual in general and particularly what body of thought would be needed to make statements on the subject.
If we have agreed upon the fact that such topics can only be discussed in the philosophic realm, one could of course argue (philosophically) for or against e.g. the existence of God, etc. I just made an argument against the notion that science would provide any evidence for or against the spiritual, which clearly it cannot.
You didn`t make any argument of the sort at all.  Read Special and general Relativity by Einstein if you want to learn more about Space Time.  Science always debunks the "spiritual".  There is NOTHING "spiritual" about Space Time and have no clue why you posit otherwise.  There are MANY scientists devoted solely to explaining away YOUR spiritualism.


You need to define the "spiritual".  You have yet to do so.  

You cannot make the leap in logic as you do, to make any argument for the Supernatural or spiritual or the existence for a god.  It makes zero sense whatsoever.

You are "backdooring" because we may lack the technology at this time to accurately test certain hypothesis.

ironneck

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Re: Can Muslims have alcohol on their skin ???
« Reply #149 on: July 11, 2009, 01:21:41 PM »
I think you are heavily intoxicated!


easy there bud