For Chick/Milos/Anyone who claims Bodybuilders drug usage is overestimated

[Method101]

Heres an interview with Craig Titus where he comments on Branch Warren saying "that's 3grams of test a week".

Obviously this opinion is coming from somone with expierience who had alot of inside information and no doubt he probably had personal expierience with those dosages.

So, the reality is IFBB pros drug usage is severly underestimated by average people and is not as low as Milos and Bob Chick want you to believe.

p.s, also please forget the notion that "drugs are only 10% of the physique". We all know that Ronnie was 300lbs with abs, as a natural he would probably been 220lbs with abs.

80lbs of muscle is not only "10%".

[Chick]

Well...there's the voice of reason....convicted murderer Craig Titus


The drugs add whatever they add....not sure any % can be attributed.  They dont make a pitbull out of a chihuahua...as evidenced by our own Mindspin, who despite taking boatloads of drugs, couldn't get out of the local level.

What % do you attribute Lawrence Taylor's success to cocaine?

[emn1964]

Well...there's the voice of reason....convicted murderer Craig Titus


The drugs add whatever they add....not sure any % can be attributed.  They dont make a pitbull out of a chihuahua...as evidenced by our own Mindspin, who despite taking boatloads of drugs, couldn't get out of the local level.

What % do you attribute Lawrence Taylor's success to cocaine?

There you go again trying to equate a male beauty pageant with a sport that requires athletic ability and skill.  Can I get an "oh brother"?

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

Well...there's the voice of reason....convicted murderer Craig Titus


The drugs add whatever they add....not sure any % can be attributed.  They dont make a pitbull out of a chihuahua...as evidenced by our own Mindspin, who despite taking boatloads of drugs, couldn't get out of the local level.

What % do you attribute Lawrence Taylor's success to cocaine?

oh that is the funniest post I read in ages,,,poor mindspin all funny

[Nasty Nate]

Liars for their own benefit. Go tell Chad Nichols that Milos says 750mg of test per week is the average of a pro... ffs 750mg is lower than state level guys.

[Method101]

murderer or not, he has insider knowledge and expierience on what the top level guys are taking and his estimate is 3grams of test alone, which is atleast triple what Chick/Milos would have you believe.

Not to mention the 10ius of GH every 6 hours.
And humalog post workouts lol.
source of this info = gh15

[Chick]

There you go again trying to equate a male beauty pageant with a sport that requires athletic ability and skill.  Can I get an "oh brother"?

Answer the question

[Spike]

Well...there's the voice of reason....convicted murderer Craig Titus


The drugs add whatever they add....not sure any % can be attributed.  They dont make a pitbull out of a chihuahua...as evidenced by our own Mindspin, who despite taking boatloads of drugs, couldn't get out of the local level.

What % do you attribute Lawrence Taylor's success to cocaine?

 

[Chick]

murderer or not, he has insider knowledge and expierience on what the top level guys are taking and his estimate is 3grams of test alone, which is atleast triple what Chick/Milos would have you believe.

Not to mention the 10ius of GH every 6 hours.
And humalog post workouts lol.
source of this info = gh15

LOL...laughable.

Guess if your hero Craig said it, it must be true

[Method101]

Ok we must say that the physiques are 60% drugs, and within that 60%, 50% of it is the dosage and 50% is the genetic response.

[Mars]

its not in the pros benefit to tell the truth, afterall people still has to think the pro archieved the "after" picture with a revolutionairy supplement.

[Blockhead]

Liars for their own benefit. Go tell Chad Nichols that Milos says 750mg of test per week is the average of a pro... ffs 750mg is lower than state level guys.

At the state level... 1000mg-1500mg a week is norm.

 I know middleweights who aren't much heavier than 165lbs who use over a gram a week not to mention the anti-estrogens, insulin and growth just to NOT place and qualify at the local level.


 - Block!

[Nasty Nate]

At the state level... 1000mg-1500mg a week is norm.

 I know middleweights who aren't much heavier than 165lbs who use over a gram a week not to mention the anti-estrogens, insulin and growth just to NOT place and qualify at the local level.


 - Block!

Yup. I said 750mg because that's what Milos claimed most of his athletes used when he was asked on the radio a couple months ago.

[emn1964]

At the state level... 1000mg-1500mg a week is norm.

 I know middleweights who aren't much heavier than 165lbs who use over a gram a week not to mention the anti-estrogens, insulin and growth just to NOT place and qualify at the local level.


 - Block!

How would it look to all the dim wits and kids out there that Chick peddles his supplements to if he were actually honest?  I'm guessing bb.com revenue would take a bit of a hit, huh, Chick?

[The Showstoppa]

Bob, you seem to dismiss Craig's claims rather bruskly.  I wonder if you would do so to Craig's face?

[tendonitis]

"Have you seen the size of Cutler's head and jaw!?"

classic

[ManBearPig...]

Craiggers is a man of honesty, no doubt.

[Van_Bilderass]

LOL...laughable.

Guess if your hero Craig said it, it must be true

Speaking of Branch Warren didn't he almost die after taking diuretic advice from your fellow low-doser Tom Prince? Was Tom also advising you when you ended up in the hospital?

Branch did turn pro at that show though so it was worth the risk I guess. 

[emn1964]

Speaking of Branch Warren didn't he almost die after taking diuretic advice from your fellow low-doser Tom Prince? Was Tom also advising you when you ended up in the hospital?

Branch did turn pro at that show though so it was worth the risk I guess. 

only if he walked away with his plastic trophy

[Van_Bilderass]

only if he walked away with his plastic trophy

Small story: At the 2001 Nationals, I got a call from a friend of mine, Ed Pariso, who asked me if I'd take a minute to go look at one of his friends. The kid was staying at the host hotel, just like I was, so I agreed.

So, I get to the kid's room, and he introduces himself as Branch Warren. Brach is basically alone, other than the one friend who was there helping him get ready for the show. He was already in his posing trunks, so he hit a few poses in the bathroom mirror, so that I could check out how his physique looked.

"Well, if you lose 5 pounds of water, you'll win", I said, offering my opinion.

"NO WAY!", says Branch's friend.

"Well, OK. I'm not going to argue about what my opinion is. My advice would be, lose 5 pounds of water", and I opened the door, ready to go back to my room.

Branch stopped me. "Wait, Tom. 5 pounds, huh?"

"Yeap", I returned.

Branch had no diuretics with him, so I had to give him a tab or two of the diurectic I had brought for the girl I was helping.

Next day, 5 pounds lighter, Branch was clearly the best heavyweight on stage that night.

And.. just to finish the story off... Branch turned pro 24 hours later. Obviously, Branch was grateful, and thanked me about 10 times that night.

Branch was so nice and humble, that I was happy to help such a great person. Win or lose, he was mad cool.

[MindSpin]

Well...there's the voice of reason....convicted murderer Craig Titus


The drugs add whatever they add....not sure any % can be attributed.  They dont make a pitbull out of a chihuahua...as evidenced by our own Mindspin, who despite taking boatloads of drugs, couldn't get out of the local level.

What % do you attribute Lawrence Taylor's success to cocaine?

Ha ha!  I'm so in your head.  First, I didn't use "boat loads"  Over a 4 year period, I went on and off a few cycles.  Never did GH, insulin or any of the other crap you guys are using nowadays.

That said, I will agree with you.  Drugs can only do so much.  Take you for example.  You've been pumping yourself full of hormones for about 40 years, and still you placed last at the Mr. Olympia.  No amount of drugs could turn you into Ronnie Coleman.  It must suck to be so shitty at something you love so much....hahhahahah!!

[Tatyana]

An alternative opinion.

I think people just want to know the truth.

In other countries, top amateurs and some of the pros post their entire preps, drugs included, as they are not illegal to use in that country.

The issue is that they are in the US, and the consequences are quite severe.

What Do the Pros Take?        
Written by John Romano    
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 02:16  
Many of you wonder; many of you ask; but why doesn't anyone really know? It's such a powerful question because the top guys are so over the top that you just can't imagine the standard training and performance-enhancing fare we are all privy to can produce the physiques that comprise the very zenith of bodybuilding? I mean, if it was, we would all look like that, right? Could it be possible we're just talking test and tren here?  Nahhh.... Couldn't be.  It has to be something else, right?

 

The first thing I want to ponder is why is it such a goddamned secret in the first place?  Why won't pro bodybuilders tell us what they take?  Because using drugs is taboo?  Maybe it's because they're illegal?  Whatever the case, they all use them; some are purportedly using tons.  But why won't they tell us?  Is it because the guys take them just can't admit what an insipid little thing they've gotten themselves into?  All top level pro bodybuilders use drugs, but what do they really do?

 

So, what's the big secret fellas?  This is interesting and potentially helpful stuff.  It's not like you invented anything.  Most pros have some guru telling them what to do anyway.  I sat in on many sessions with Dan Duchaine and some of his charges back in the day.  I was eating with him one day at the Fire House and Mr. Olympia showed up!  So let's not pretend it's no big deal.  Duchaine was the administrator of some pretty crazy shit.  I know.  I saw it firsthand.

 

While Dan pulled his secrets out of his own little black bag, other bodybuilders over the years have been known to corral themselves an MD, or a chemist, or an endocrinologist, to find a more protected and antiseptic rout to the same end.  Those fortunate enough to really get into the upper echelon were privy to all kinds of Olympic-caliber custom-made drugs.  They got them from laboratories, from guys in white lab coats, packed in nice shiny 100% real-deal bottles, autoclave sterile and chock full of the month's flavor of exploderone.  Anyway you slice it, by all the accounts that have come through my office over the years from all over the world, one thing is absolutely certain, some of you guys do a lot of fuckin' drugs!

 

It's not so much the drugs themselves-- I'll cover the specific ones I know of in a minute-- it's how they take them and how much some guys have been known to take that's mind boggling, if not bone chilling. Did you know at one point there were bodybuilding death pools? Crazy when you think this thing of ours evolved from something supposedly healthy.

 

When I did my first cycle in 1981 it was about making a 6-week pyramid stack out of a single bottle of Dianabol. It's gone way, way, beyond that today. I have to say that there was a peak in the mid to late 90s where things were really insane.  I think that had more to do with the learning curve the gurus were on than standard bodybuilding mentality.  Remember, their charges also had to be willing lab rats.  Nevertheless, I find the work some of these gurus have done, and are still doing, extremely interesting and no less important to the bodybuilding community at large. While many think Duchaine was a madman, the truth is anyone who uses anabolics owes him, and guys like him, a great debt of gratitude. There was no doctor then, or now, willing to prescribe a contest stack.   And, Mr. Olympia isn't going to tell Jay Leno about all the shit he's taking on late-night TV.  The information is out there though; it just wants to be kept quiet.  The public can't fathom its depth because it's too outrageous.  They proved that after Andreas Munzer died and the German news magazine Der Spiegel printed his stack.  "Holy Shit!" everybody said when they read it.  No wonder he died.

 

Well, when you get done reading this, you're going to say, "holy shit!" I can't believe these guys are alive."

 

The gurus and bodybuilders talk amongst themselves, and they damn well should; they have to.   There is no other means by which bodybuilding pharmacology can be disseminated, assessed, honed, and perfected. The bodybuilding-type research these guys need isn't being studied by the mainstream medical community, peer reviewed, and published in prestigious journals.  There are no university studies with a protocol that requires 4000 - 5000 mg, or more, of testosterone a week per subject.  For better or worse, bodybuilding is proven in the trenches.  Where else would warriors line up willingly as test subjects?  You've got to have balls in order to lose them, and they do on both counts.

 

Pushing 500 mg of Sustanon into the side of your ass once a week is so last century.  Today needles are poking into delts and biceps peaks and various locations in each triceps head; site-injecting master mixes of potent androgens and mid-range anabolics combined with long and short acting testosterones and exotic testosterone blends dissolved in locatable oils (Synthol).  Multiple shots-- every day-- deep into each muscle belly.

 

The front line androgens and steroids are pretty much the same as they have always been; it's just the mixing and the amounts that are different.  Very different indeed.  Many guys divide their juice up into different stacks that change throughout the cycle-- bulking and cutting.  Duchaine advocated getting a big 100 cc bottle with a rubber stopper and a crimp ring from the local laboratory supply shop, gathering up all the gear for a particular array, sterilize everything and mix a big hormone cocktail using Synthol as the base.   Rather than draw out of several different vials each time they take a shot, they simply draw out of the mix.  When that one is done they mix up another for a different phase of their cycle.  Hormone bartending, if you will.

 

Here's the thing about Synthol.  Regardless of all the horror stories associated with it and the carpet of denials that intended to cover up its use, lots of guys use it today. There is a clear advantage to it.  Abusing it yields stupid looking and often deleterious results.  The screw-ups are the ones you usually hear about in any community.  This is no different-- the guys with big ludicrous fake looking arms and delts that don't move are using too much Synthol.  Some of them get huge abscesses and permanent disfigurement.  But make no mistake, the stuff works, and used properly-- as most who use it do-- can yield incredible results, especially mixed with juice.   The theory is, the oil occupies space in the muscle, forcing the fibers apart making the muscle appear larger.  For some reason this is believed to cause the body to build more tissue to fill up the space, especially since the drugs are in there too on their way into the rest of the body.  It's radical and painful, but the result can't be denied.  Just look at the next pro line up - never have so many guns broken the 20 inch mark.

 

The basic bodybuilding block for most bodybuilders is and has always been testosterone.  Guys are combining short acting testosterones such as propionate and acetate for rapid response growth, then medium acting testosterones such as Cypionate and Enanthate which keeps fluctuating testosterone levels in check giving a more predictable response with a minimum of side effects, and then long acting testosterones such as undecanoate for that lingering effect after the cycle is over.  Some guys add these to blended testosterones such as Sustanon, Testoviron or Sten just to make sure all the bases are covered. Astoundingly, it was not uncommon for a top pro to be pumping 4000- 5000 mg, or more, a week of such concoctions.

 

This really isn't as bad as it sounds, if you are one of the guys who can control himself.  Recent research shows that short, high dose, cycles are more effective than long medium dose cycles.  Some guys followed that theory and did quite well with it in spite of the super high dose.  Unfortunately, others looked at the research with their bodybuilder mentality (more is more) and  concluded long-term high dose cycles would therefore have to be most effective, and they stayed oiled all year round, for years on end, with all the ancillary drugs that went with it.  Did I mention the death pools?

 

On top of the androgens, bodybuilders stack an array of steroids.  Most steroids are inaccurately termed "anabolic."  In fact, most synthetic steroids are designed to resemble testosterone, yet have differences which make the steroid either more anabolic or more androgenic.  Using testosterone as the baseline androgen, those drugs which are less powerful androgenically would be termed anabolic, while those with less anabolic activity would be termed androgenic.  Most androgenic steroids are correspondingly highly anabolic, while the least androgenic steroids are usually less powerful anabolically.  Some steroids have been designed to be concomitantly more anabolic and more androgenic.  What shrewd bodybuilders do is initially choose steroids which are highly anabolic while giving up a modicum of androgenic side effects such as, Sustanon, D-bol, Andriol, Trenbolone, then-- as the contest grows near-- switch over to steroids which are the least androgenic, such as Primobolan acetate, Deca, Anavar, Winstrol, etc., even if that means (in most cases it does) giving up a certain amount of anabolic activity.

 

With several thousand milligrams of testosterone coming in, finding the dosages and combinations of auxiliary steroids is a matter of great conjecture.  Some gurus are clever enough to arrive at their charge's optimal dose using a little process known as receptor mapping.  By carefully monitoring and gradually increasing the steroids dose, one can actually "map" the steroids effect, at the receptor level in the muscle cells, until it spills over to other receptors such as those contained in the hair follicles, skin and sebaceous glands.  This method should enable the user to calculate the maximum effective dose for muscle size and strength gains with a minimum of undesirable side effects.  Of course this would only work well with steroids that have a high receptor affinity.  With steroids of low receptor affinity, such as Anadrol and D-bol, it's a matter of trial and error in finding an optimal dose.  As liver toxic as these orals are, too much error can cause problems.

 

On both sides of either cutting or bulking cycles many bodybuilders include Deca and Primobolan depo.  Deca is highly anabolic and works in the presence of everything and Primo is reported to kick everything up a notch.  The rest of the array could include Trenbolone, Dianabol, Equipoise, Halotestin, Andriol, Laurabolin, Nilevar, Winstrol, etc, in addition to the test, depending upon weather they might be bulking or cutting.  All together some bodybuilders could be stacking up to a dozen different androgens and steroids over the course of an entire bulking/cutting regime.  Then there are the other drugs...

 

All top pro bodybuilders also use growth hormone, IGF-1 and insulin.  These days GH is not a solo item; the advent of IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor) as well as the conjunctive use of exogenous insulin have culminated in an extremely powerful (and dangerous) growth-stimulating constituent to a bodybuilder's arsenal of anabolic drugs.

 

Not long ago, GH was used by itself with only haphazard results; naturally inciting the "more is better" principal.  The limiting factor to its use then became the nasty side effects such as, terribly debilitating carpal tunnel syndrome, severe water retention, and a bank book zero. Also limiting the anabolic effect of GH is the body's own regulation of IGF-1.   Soon after GH is injected it travels to the liver where it is broken down and converted to IGF-1.

 

Combining GH, IGF-1 and insulin creates a powerful anabolic formula that is far greater than the sum total of its parts. The process is intricate, but in a nutshell - when GH is used with certain androgens, the net effect is an increase in the production of IGF-1.  IGF-1 has an extremely powerful effect on anabolic activity.  Administering exogenous IGF-1, (more is more), would then stand to further increase anabolism, right?  Not exactly.  The problem is, in order to get IGF-1 to do its thing it requires a binding protein (IGFBP-3) to control its activity and potency, as well as to keep the IGF-1 circulating in the blood stream.  If you can't get the IGFBP-3 to work, then the IGF-1 is useless.  Insulin decreases the activity of the proteolytic enzymes that destroy IGFBP-3 and keeps the IGF-1 circulating throughout the body.  Without IGFBP-3, IGF-1 disappears from circulation in about five minutes.  Insulin can maintain IGFBP-3 for 12 hours or more.

 

Combining GH, IGF-1, and short and medium duration insulin creates a biological environment that's sole purpose is to potentate IGF-1 activity.  Administering exogenous IGF-1 also causes hypoglycemia, especially if calories are restricted.  On the other hand, GH causes insulin resistance resulting in hyperglycemia.  Combining the two counteracts the deleterious effect of the other on blood sugar levels.  Combining the two also produces a far better anabolic effect than either used alone.

Suffice it to say it's far more complicated and very dangerous if done wrong.  But many bodybuilders accept it as just part of the job.  If you goof up on the insulin you could end up in a coma, or worse.  Using GH, IGF-1 and insulin individually for their anabolic effect is a waste of time and money. Done correctly this one aspect alone of professional bodybuilding can set one back, depending on their dealer, a few thousand dollars a month or more!

 

Some gurus use short-acting insulin to carb their guys up before a show while an IV bag full of glucose drips into a vein.  These guys are constantly running the risk of severe hypoglycemia, slipping into a coma, and dying within hours.  But, it hasn't happened yet.

 

Some bodybuilders also try to stimulate their own natural secretion of endogenous GH while they sleep.  Drugs such as GHB, Catapres, and others have shown to be moderately effective.  I think they're more effective in making you sleepy, and, as in the case of GHB, has a recreational allure that can chew you up and spit you out if you're not careful.  GH is GH though and every little bit is revered. (More is more).

 

Significantly elevating testosterone levels through exogenous sources has two undesirable effects.  First, the body senses all the extra testosterone and decides it doesn't need to make any more of its own.  The old "use it or lose it" adage effects the testicles where testosterone is produced.  Shriveled nuts is always a given.  This condition is temporary; soon after steroid use stops the most glorious hypertrophy usually results.  Most bodybuilders kick start the process with hormones to restore testicular function such as HCG and Clomid.  HCG is also anti-catabolic.

 

Elevated testosterone levels also cause the body to try and counterbalance the hormones by producing extra estrogen.   Certain steroids also aromatize and convert to estrogen. Estrogen is quite undesirable due to its nasty side effects in men; water retention, irritability and gynecomastia (bitch tits), to name a few.  Bodybuilders routinely use estrogen antagonists to blunt estrogen, such as Nolvadex and Proviron, and block estrogen with Arimidex, to prevent these problems.  Unfortunately, once a guy grows breasts, surgery is, in most cases, the only viable cure.   Most top pros have a little semi circular scar under each nipple.

 

Some guys who will admit it swear they don't use that much when compared to the extreme.  Unfortunately, no one believes them.  They all need to compete with each other, and if got out that one particularly well improved Olympia contender  was using a bunch of genetically engineered artificial blood from Russia, the rest of them would have it before very long.  There is little a bodybuilder won't do to win.   Then of course, considering that the human body produces many of the hormones

 

bodybuilders use, a particular bodybuilder could be using a few thousand milligrams of testosterone and testosterone blends each week, several IUs of GH, IGF-1 and insulin each day, and technically still tell the world, without impunity, that he is 100  percent natural. I always thought that was funny.

 

Managing all these drugs with other drugs, the drugs used to maintain muscle mass while dieting, and the drugs used to diet are a whole other story I'll be happy to tell another time if you really want me to. Especially in the two weeks leading up to a contest the medicine some gurus practice borders on voodoo.  Thankfully, as the years went on and the process was refined, we determined that some of the more radical approaches were really not necessary and things have calmed down a bit.  But, if you've seen some of the shit I have its no wonder its been kept a secret.

  

[Meso_z]

Well...there's the voice of reason....convicted murderer Craig Titus


The drugs add whatever they add....not sure any % can be attributed.  They dont make a pitbull out of a chihuahua...as evidenced by our own Mindspin, who despite taking boatloads of drugs, couldn't get out of the local level.

What % do you attribute Lawrence Taylor's success to cocaine?

i agree with bob.

[DK II]

i agree with bob.

 

[Meso_z]

Im serious...

Isn't "Method101" the 17year old who workouts in his "home gym"?

what the hell would he know about bbing, and competitive to be specific. jeesus.....these kids believe whatever they read on the "boards".

sure there are USERS AND ABUSERS, LIKE IN EVERY "SPORT"