Question for guys who've wrestled about being "stiff."

[The Showstoppa]

I know some of you on here have "entered the squared circle" and I have always been curious about the whole working stiff thing.  In a sport where the idea is to look like you are killing someone, but protecting them at the same time, I find it interesting that there is such respect for "stiff" workers.  Is it for ones who will receive, as well as give? How are these guys received in the back?

Thanks.

[Montague]

Some guys work stiff to make the action look realistic.
Some work that way because they don’t know how to properly work.
Others do it because they can, and they like to take liberties with their opponents.
Regardless of why a wrestler works using a stiff style, the probability of getting hurt with someone like that is much higher.

The respect thing usually comes from either an admiration for their skill or the fear that they might legitimately jack you up – intentionally or not - so stay on their good side.

Not all stiffs are respected, though.
I saw one or two backstage scuffles regarding a punch that connected a little too hard, etc.
And the clumsy workers are often confronted and admonished about their hazardous ways – most often while still trainees.

Some guys just don’t get it, or aren’t cut out (coordinated enough) for wrestling.

[The Showstoppa]

Some guys work stiff to make the action look realistic.
Some work that way because they don’t know how to properly work.
Others do it because they can, and they like to take liberties with their opponents.
Regardless of why a wrestler works using a stiff style, the probability of getting hurt with someone like that is much higher.

The respect thing usually comes from either an admiration for their skill or the fear that they might legitimately jack you up – intentionally or not - so stay on their good side.

Not all stiffs are respected, though.
I saw one or two backstage scuffles regarding a punch that connected a little too hard, etc.
And the clumsy workers are often confronted and admonished about their hazardous ways – most often while still trainees.

Some guys just don’t get it, or aren’t cut out (coordinated enough) for wrestling.

thanks Monty.  It seems like the guys who do it to take liberties with their opponent would get blackballed out of the sport, but I guess the promoters don't care since they "make it look real." 

[Montague]

That depends more on how much money they draw and how much trouble they cause the promoter.

[Hulkster]

Andre and Rude used to freak out on Warrior because he supposedly wrestled way too stiff. Andre just returned the favor apparently..

[Montague]

Warrior wouldn’t let Andre work Andre’s style.
Andre liked his opponents to hit him once or twice and then back off so that he could take a couple of steps back and fall into the ropes getting his arms tangled in the process.

Warrior never gave him a chance to do that. He just kept charging Andre repeatedly and then moved on to the next spot.
Andre let it slide for about 2 nights.
Finally, they were in a match and Warrior came firing at Andre.
So the GIANT stuck out his giant-sized hand and potatoed Warrior; knocking him silly.
Andre supposedly then looked down at Bobby Heenan at ringside and said, “He’s learning.”

Of all the guys in that locker room, why would you choose Andre as the one to piss off? That really shows Jim Hellwig's mentality.

[leonp1981]

Warrior wouldn’t let Andre work Andre’s style.
Andre liked his opponents to hit him once or twice and then back off so that he could take a couple of steps back and fall into the ropes getting his arms tangled in the process.

Warrior never gave him a chance to do that. He just kept charging Andre repeatedly and then moved on to the next spot.
Andre let it slide for about 2 nights.
Finally, they were in a match and Warrior came firing at Andre.
So the GIANT stuck out his giant-sized hand and potatoed Warrior; knocking him silly.
Andre supposedly then looked down at Bobby Heenan at ringside and said, “He’s learning.”

Of all the guys in that locker room, why would you choose Andre as the one to piss off? That really shows Jim Hellwig's mentality.

I always like that story, I can just see Andre doing it.

Bradshaw and Bob Holly were always known for working stiff, yet they were around for a long time.  Weren't there rumours that Vince used to use Holly as kind of an 'enforcer'?

[Montague]

I haven’t heard much about it, but yes – both men you mentioned have been rumored to assume that role.
I know some of the dirt sheets years ago reported several incidents of Holly being used to “prove a point” in the ring.

Allegedly, Bradshaw stiffed the shit out of Buff Bagwell shortly after the WCW acquisition.
Vince was supposedly having some problems with Bagwell and used the APA match to put him in his place before delivering his pink slip.

No matter what the stories involved, they all suggested the fact that Holly and Layfield were legitimately tough men.
If you guys remember Billy Jack Haynes, he was another one who had that reputation.
I don’t remember hearing of him being a bully, but he was one tough SOB, and I don’t think anyone ever tried it on with Billy.

[The Showstoppa]

I read in the old mid-atlantic days that the Crocketts used Wahoo in that manor.  If you were getting a little too full of yourself, they would put you in with Wahoo and if you were really bad, it would be an indian strap match...

I've heard Bradshaw is just more of a bully who "took liberties" as you said.  Tracy Smothers doesn't care for him or Holly for that reason.  Like he says, it's easy to beat a guy up when he lets you.

[leonp1981]

There was a funny story not too long ago, I think it was on one of WWE's tours for the troops.  They were all sat one night having a drink, when JBL started mouthing off at Joey Styles about his announcing work.  Eventually Styles had had enough of it, walked up to JBL, and knocked him on his ass.  Apparently JBL didn't say shit to him for the rest of the tour.

[Montague]

I've heard Bradshaw is just more of a bully who "took liberties" as you said.  Tracy Smothers doesn't care for him or Holly for that reason.  Like he says, it's easy to beat a guy up when he lets you.

"Taking liberties" doesn’t always involve hurting your opponent. Some guys feel they’re always the better worker and should “lead” the match.
Adrian Adonis once tried to lead a match between him and Dynamite Kid. Well, you can imagine how that pre-match conversation went.

There are some wrestlers who feel above everyone else in the back, and won’t sell anything or put their opponents over at all.
So you go an entire match making your opponent look like shit – so what?
Who’ve you beaten?
A piece of shit?

Making your opponent look good can make your victory mean a lot more. And it just makes for a better match in general.
A lot of guys are too selfish, though, to realize that.

[The Showstoppa]

Making your opponent look good can make your victory mean a lot more. And it just makes for a better match in general.
A lot of guys are too selfish, though, to realize that.

That's what I would think too.  People remember matches where it's a back and forth affair, not one sided destructions or sloppy ones...unless it's remembered in a bad way.

The backstage lobbying and politics, even in a small time promotion, has to be brutal.  Unless the promoter is a stong personality who actually cares.

[Montague]

The backstage lobbying and politics, even in a small time promotion, has to be brutal. Unless the promoter is a stong personality who actually cares.

All promotions face the same set of problems.
I’d always thought that the indy level would be more relaxed and cordial without all the international TV coverage and 6-7 figure contracts, but…

You’d be amazed at the kind of ego some guys can get working in front of 120 people for $40/night – in some cases less than that!
 

[The Showstoppa]

All promotions face the same set of problems.
I’d always thought that the indy level would be more relaxed and cordial without all the international TV coverage and 6-7 figure contracts, but…

You’d be amazed at the kind of ego some guys can get working in front of 120 people for $40/night – in some cases less than that!
 

I can only imagine.  I think of the egos you run into in the gym and combine it with delusions of making "the big time."  Jeez.  Why not just take it for what it is and have a good time?  I think of it as kinda like playing pick-up basketball on the weekend.

[Montague]

I can only imagine.  I think of the egos you run into in the gym and combine it with delusions of making "the big time."  Jeez.  Why not just take it for what it is and have a good time?  I think of it as kinda like playing pick-up basketball on the weekend.

BINGO!!!

[Playboy]

The indies is full of cocky young guys who think they're large and in charge. I remember a story where back in 2003 some guy from OVW that was getting a break in the WWE got smart with Shawn Michaels backstage. Chris benoit heard what was going on and he approached the kid and made him do 1000 free squats for his stupidity and arrogance. He even did the squats with him to show him it was a team effort.

[LLES]

Alot of the "older" guys would most always go stiff on you at first,just to see if you could take it.It's hard to explain unless you've done it. It's like fighting 3/4 speed.The absolute hardest I ever got hit was by Wahoo McDaniels. We were training at old NWA training fac in Charlotte. Wahoo stopped in & worked with some of us on the finer points of working a match. After explaining ring philos. & such, He (we all got a chance) & I did the collar & elbow lockup, he backed me into a corner & chopped me very lightly,explaining no one would buy that.Locked up again & this time he chopped me prob 65%. I have never been chopped that hard by anyone. I thought I was going to puke it hurt so bad. Wahoo smiled & asked if I was ok, which I lied & said yes. Honestly, it was an honor just to be in the ring w/him. Wahoo was in his 60's then.I was bruised for atleast a week from it.Its one of my favorite memories from wrassling.

[The Showstoppa]

Alot of the "older" guys would most always go stiff on you at first,just to see if you could take it.It's hard to explain unless you've done it. It's like fighting 3/4 speed.The absolute hardest I ever got hit was by Wahoo McDaniels. We were training at old NWA training fac in Charlotte. Wahoo stopped in & worked with some of us on the finer points of working a match. After explaining ring philos. & such, He (we all got a chance) & I did the collar & elbow lockup, he backed me into a corner & chopped me very lightly,explaining no one would buy that.Locked up again & this time he chopped me prob 65%. I have never been chopped that hard by anyone. I thought I was going to puke it hurt so bad. Wahoo smiled & asked if I was ok, which I lied & said yes. Honestly, it was an honor just to be in the ring w/him. Wahoo was in his 60's then.I was bruised for atleast a week from it.Its one of my favorite memories from wrassling.

Great story LLES.  I loved Wahoo as a kid.  Any Ivan Koloff stories from that facility?  I heard he did some work there too.

[Playboy]

Alot of the "older" guys would most always go stiff on you at first,just to see if you could take it.It's hard to explain unless you've done it. It's like fighting 3/4 speed.The absolute hardest I ever got hit was by Wahoo McDaniels. We were training at old NWA training fac in Charlotte. Wahoo stopped in & worked with some of us on the finer points of working a match. After explaining ring philos. & such, He (we all got a chance) & I did the collar & elbow lockup, he backed me into a corner & chopped me very lightly,explaining no one would buy that.Locked up again & this time he chopped me prob 65%. I have never been chopped that hard by anyone. I thought I was going to puke it hurt so bad. Wahoo smiled & asked if I was ok, which I lied & said yes. Honestly, it was an honor just to be in the ring w/him. Wahoo was in his 60's then.I was bruised for atleast a week from it.Its one of my favorite memories from wrassling.

Ouch...Wahoo definately had some nasty chops. Your chest must have been beat red and swollen for days.

[Montague]

Wahoo stopped in & worked with some of us on the finer points of working a match. After explaining ring philos. & such, He (we all got a chance) & I did the collar & elbow lockup, he backed me into a corner & chopped me very lightly,explaining no one would buy that.Locked up again & this time he chopped me prob 65%. I have never been chopped that hard by anyone. I thought I was going to puke it hurt so bad. Wahoo smiled & asked if I was ok, which I lied & said yes. Honestly, it was an honor just to be in the ring w/him.

It’s not often that you run into someone who's stepped into a ring (in any capacity) with Wahoo.
It sounds like you probably have some interesting experiences.
I hope you’ll share more stories with us.

[LLES]

Great story LLES.  I loved Wahoo as a kid.  Any Ivan Koloff stories from that facility?  I heard he did some work there too.

Ivan use to stop by quite often. He never got in the ring ( at least when I was there), but he was a really nice man. Very soft spoken.Always came by & said hello to everyone.

Yes my chest was bruised beet red for about a week. I showed it to everyone. I can only imagine what it was like to get chopped when he was younger.Wahoos hands were like catcher's mitts. Some of the other wrestlers I knew all said when you were in the ring with Wahoo during a real match, he didn't hold back on the chops. Wahoo was a legit tough guy no doubt. Honestly, he was in his 60's & I wouldn't have wanted to tangle with him.

[LLES]

Ouch!!

[The Showstoppa]

Ouch!!

I know!   I posted that somewhere here awhile back.  J Valentine is one tough SOB....those chops were just plain brutal!

[LLES]

I asked Ric Flair personally , "Who chops harder ,you or Wahoo?". He said without a doubt Wahoo has the hardest chop of anyone. So that pretty much sold it for me. Esp after being on the recieving end of one.