Gates has played the "race card" his whole life.

[Al Doggity]

Actually they don't these days, especially not in liberal states.  Read up on some major incidents some time.  Command staff will throw their officers under the bus to avoid public outrage or backlash.  Officers are given days without leave for many things that they shouldn't.

In most cases, officers are still unwaveringly supported. There are a few rare instances of of overwhelmingly gross negligence, like the Moats' case, where that isn't true.

I guess my response to your second paragraph would be that you should direct it to yourself as well.  Other officers back the arrest and the officer and so does the department.  I have never seen something so small made so big and I blame Obama and Gates, not the arresting sergeant.

The difference being that I haven't pretended to know what happened. I haven't made the claim that either of the men was right or wrong. So, no, my second paragraph was directed at the appropriate target.

[tonymctones]

I don't agree with this, I've already stated why.

I did read the article. As I said, I never heard anyone say anything about her until today and that article didn't mention any specific threats or people who had called her racist. There may have been some lone posts on message boards, but there weren't really any notable mentions about her.

People didn't find it strange that someone would call the police on someone breaking through the front door. The controversy's point of origin is AFTER the cop arrives.

well sir i proved your point wrong but youre completely free to continue believing in your fallacy...

it wasnt that they found it strange that she called it was that they jumped to conclusions and thought she had said there were 2 black men breaking into a house and labeled her racist...

funny how you dont answer any of my questions...

you dont think blacks are far more sensitive to race then other races?
you think affirmitive action was a good thing?

[Cap]

In most cases, officers are still unwaveringly supported. There are a few rare instances of of overwhelmingly gross negligence, like the Moats' case, where that isn't true.The difference being that I haven't pretended to know what happened. I haven't made the claim that either of the men was right or wrong. So, no, my second paragraph was directed at the appropriate target.

No, I disagree because unlike you I know how major police departments work.  Trust me you lose this one.

As far as your second point, you can think what you want but the President is back tracking and it has been shown thus far that Gates was in the wrong.  All I know is that I have read Gates was acting like a jerk, acted inappropriately, there are pictures of him acting like a fool.  Like I said, if multiple people say the officer was in the right and nobody is backing a racist like Gates then that's cool with me.

[Al Doggity]

well sir i proved your point wrong but youre completely free to continue believing in your fallacy...

You didn't prove anything, you just reposted something that I already responded to. If you like, you can re-read my previous posts and repost your post. That won't mean you proved anything, but you can tell yourself it does.

it wasnt that they found it strange that she called it was that they jumped to conclusions and thought she had said there were 2 black men breaking into a house and labeled her racist...

Once again, I never heard anyone mention her. Can you show me some instances where she was criticized?

funny how you dont answer any of my questions...

you dont think blacks are far more sensitive to race then other races?
No.
you think affirmitive action was a good thing?

I'm not answering these questions intentionally. Like I said on the first page, when people debate race-especially here- they're really just throwing out a bunch of preconceived notions they have that are often pretty uninformed. The posts I have responded to in this thread are things that I feel are factually incorrect. I have a few opinions on affirmative action- some positive, some not so positive, mostly based in fact- but I don't have strong feelings one way or the other.

Are blacks far more sensitive to race than other races? That's a complicated question. It's subjective and you already have your mind made up, so I think I'll take a pass on that one, too.

[Al Doggity]

No, I disagree because unlike you I know how major police departments work.  Trust me you lose this one.

As far as your second point, you can think what you want but the President is back tracking and it has been shown thus far that Gates was in the wrong.  All I know is that I have read Gates was acting like a jerk, acted inappropriately, there are pictures of him acting like a fool.  Like I said, if multiple people say the officer was in the right and nobody is backing a racist like Gates then that's cool with me.

It hasn't been proven that Gates' was in the wrong. The President's "backtracking" is because he realized his involvement turned this into a much bigger deal than it would have been otherwise. You can believe what you want, as well. As I said previously, that does not mean it is the truth.

[Cap]

It hasn't been proven that Gates' was in the wrong. The President's "backtracking" is because he realized his involvement turned this into a much bigger deal than it would have been otherwise. You can believe what you want, as well. As I said previously, that does not mean it is the truth.

Roll your eyes all you want but it's true.

[Al Doggity]

Roll your eyes all you want but it's true.

 

[24KT]

when did i say whites allow you? you see youre proving my point jag...society allows it

Actually I was being playfully facetious. I was hoping you would catch that, ...I guess you didn't.

my dear as ive stated im half japanese and half white Ive been called chink and cracker by different ppl at different times I certainly know racism exists in this country more so then I would guess the majority of ppl in this country. The racism goes every direction as well jag ive known plenty of blacks that performed racist acts as well. That however doesnt justify the blatent backlash and oversensitivity that only appears with the black community.

I'm not saying Blacks are incapable of racism. I'm saying America is a very racist society.

You describe it as being oversensitive. I don't know that it is oversensitivity. It's like I said before,
...when you are poked with a stick every day, ...your reaction to someone brandishing a stick is going to be more visceral than someone who has never seen a stick, or who has only occasionally seen one. And unless you've walked a mile in another man's shoes... you can't possibly understand why they would react the way they do. If you have been repeated smacked on your arm, in the same spot, ...you're going to develop a bruise there. If that bruise had not healed, and someone were to come along and touch that spot, ...it would be overly sensitive, ...and you would feel it much more than someone who received the same touch, at the same spot, ...but did not have an existing bruise.

Do I believe Crowley was being racist when he took the liberty of entering this man's home, and demanding proof that he was a Harvard professor, despite already having been provided with a Massachusetts driver's license? I don't know. Probably not, but I wasn't there. I can't say either way what his motivation was. In any event, what we do know, is that he pissed off an innocent man minding his business in his own home. One would think that prudent wise judgement would dictate he simply apologize for the inconvenience caused, and simply leave the premises.

I understand Gates reaction. I truly do. I remember driving across the border about 10 years ago, on my way to the Christian Dior boutique at the Niagara Outlet Mall. I gave the border customs agent 2 forms of picture id: my Ontario health card (complete with my digitized pic, address, and signature) as well as my Canadian passport. She asked me why I was entering the USA? I told her I was going shopping at the Niagara Outlet Mall. No biggie... so far so good. She asked me how long I planned to stay in the USA? I told her just for the day, I'm hoping to get back home before nightfall.... so far so good. After running it, she gave me back my id, looked at my car, and asked... "Whose car are you driving?" I was shocked! I was so shocked I almost gave myself whiplash doing a double take. I said "Excuse Me?" That was my gut reaction. I didn't have time to think about my response, ...I just blurted out "Excuse Me?" I thought that was a pretty stupid and inappropriate question. Her reaction was also very telling as well. She turned bright red, looked away, and said "forget it just go... welcome to the US". I didn't make a stink about it, but it pissed me off to no end! I drive across the border all the time, sometimes in my vehicle, sometimes with friends in their vehicles. The only time I, or any of my friends have ever been questioned as to the ownership of the vehicle we were in, was when it was a luxury vehicle, and the driver was Black. My white friends with BMW's don't get asked about ownership. My white friends who drive mercedes don't get asked. My best girlfriend drives a Porsche, she never gets asked whose car she's driving, but the Blacks do. This kind of stuff goes on more than you realize if you don't experience it on a daily basis. And when it does occur on a daily basis, you're especially sensitive to it, both when it occurs to you, and to others. I don't experience alot of it this side of the border, ...but once across the 49th, I experience it alot!

When Black men upon moving into an affluent area, feel the need to go to their local police dept to say "Hi... this is who I am, this is where I live, ...this is the car I drive... please don't pull me over"... you have to recognize there is a problem. And this is something many Black people have to do inorder to avoid being stopped in their neighbourhoods

Do I think Gates was out of control, and a potential danger to Crowley. I really don't think so. I think Crowley was pissed off and determined to assert his authority over Gates, when he should have simply let the old man rant & rave and get it off his chest. I think both are guilty of lapses in judgement, ...but only one is a trained professional taught to know better, and only one had the authority to effect an arrest. An authority for which he must be held accountable. He made a stupid decision and compounded it, by making a subsequently stupid arrest imo. But hey... the good news is... nobody died.   

[Cap]

Jag, poked with a stick all day long?  You act like people say guy all day long.  Most people I have ever met are afraid to use the word, even in an academic discussion about race.  They will say Chink, Spic, etc but not guy. 

Al, with the exception of benchmstr or other LEOs who frequent here I would say I have a great deal of insight into LE and how it works.

[Al Doggity]

Jag, poked with a stick all day long?  You act like people say guy all day long.  Most people I have ever met are afraid to use the word, even in an academic discussion about race.  They will say Chink, Spic, etc but not guy. 

Al, with the exception of benchmstr or other LEOs who frequent here I would say I have a great deal of insight into LE and how it works.

You could be Bernard Kerik and you still wouldn't know any more about what went on in this case than I do. From the sound of your posts, it seems that you are still in university, so excuse me if I don't feel the need to acquiesce to Columbo Jr.


Nice post, Jag. I think it's the type of thing that will only be absorbed when preached to the choir, though.

[Cap]

You could be Bernard Kerik and you still wouldn't know any more about what went on in this case than I do. From the sound of your posts, it seems that you are still in university, so excuse me if I don't feel the need to acquiesce to Columbo Jr.


Nice post, Jag. I think it's the type of thing that will only be absorbed when preached to the choir, though.

Nope not in university anymore.  I'm talking about the inner workings of police departments as a whole and how they deal with political pressure and how they lay officers out.  Most chiefs don't think twice about it.

[Al Doggity]

Nope not in university anymore.  I'm talking about the inner workings of police departments as a whole and how they deal with political pressure and how they lay officers out.  Most chiefs don't think twice about it.

Oh, well that changes everything. It's almost like you were there!

[24KT]

"Since then, Whalen has been called a racist and has become a target of scorn by those who suggested she would have never made the call had two white men been seen struggling to open what had been a broken front door. The 40-year-old daughter of Portuguese immigrants said she has even been threatened."

you think this rush to judgement was warrented you think that it had nothing to do with the fact the guy was black? even though she never said black she said hispanic many condemned her before the facts were out...

you dont think the black community is far to sensitive on issues of race far more then any other race?

The rush to judgement? The media trumpeted this all over the place. It was Officer Crowley who disseminated this untruth that Whalen reported 2 Black men. Read Crowley's report, and watch the news coverage... that's what they are saying. How do we explain this discrepancy? We have the actual 911 call, and we have the witness statements which is consistent with her 911 call. The woman who called it in, only did so, because an older lady in the neighbourhood called her attention to the men entering the home and said there was a problem. Even on these very boards, we have people repeating the lie that she racially profiled him, ....she did not. she had a cell phone and called on behalf of someone else who indicated it might be a problem. It is the police and the media that have perpetrated the lie. I hope she sues Crowley, ...if not for lying about a statement she made, ...then for revealing her age on a police report sure to be scrutinized by thousands. That's just unthinkable!  

It's unfortunate that people are uttering threats against the woman for simply trying to be a good neighbour.  

[Cap]

Oh, well that changes everything. It's almost like you were there!

I was responding to you regarding officers being backed by their departments.  I never said I was there, but based on the evidence released so far it seems like Gates should have just relaxed.  I have seen how this has played out with WHITE people, the exact circumstance that Gates dealt with, and it happened the same way because the guy was acting like an asshole to the Deputies that arrived at the scene.  

[24KT]

You can't really make this claim. The charges against Gates' were dropped. The DA described the arrest as "unfortunate" and regrettable. That's why this is considered a controversial case.

Not only did the DA, but also Police Commissioner Robert Haas refered to it as unfortunate and regrettable, and the mayor personally phone Gates to tell him how sorry she was that he had to experience this.

[Al Doggity]

I was responding to you regarding officers being backed by their departments.

Typically, departments stand behind their officers. Especially, here in New York. I'm assuming you were involved with a police department at some point, but you don't have to be a cop to see that in big media cases, unless there is overwhelming evidence, cops are supported pretty uniformly.




  

I never said I was there, but based on the evidence released so far it seems like Gates should have just relaxed.  I have seen how this has played out with WHITE people, the exact circumstance that Gates dealt with, and it happened the same way because the guy was acting like an asshole to the Deputies that arrived at the scene.  

Really? You've seen men who had committed no crime, approached by cops, and subsequently arrested for disorderly conduct? Even taking race out of the equation, this is a pretty strange case. Whether or not Gates acted inappropriately, he WAS at his home and he had NOT committed a crime. i

[24KT]

Jag, poked with a stick all day long?  You act like people say guy all day long.  Most people I have ever met are afraid to use the word, even in an academic discussion about race.  They will say Chink, Spic, etc but not guy. 

Al, with the exception of benchmstr or other LEOs who frequent here I would say I have a great deal of insight into LE and how it works.

But Cap, that's just it, ...racism and being racist is more than simply using the "N" word.

People think that as long as someone doesn't use the 'N' word, or burn crosses on someone's front lawn, that they're not racist.Nothing can be further from the truth.

Racism is a social construct... a lense if you will that filters how we percieve those we meet, encounter, and interact with.on a daily basis. For some people, their lenses are clear, ...for others, not so clear, and the light that passes through it gets bent and refracted in such a way as to skew the picture of the person or people they are interacting with. It skews our assessments of the behaviours we witness, and how to respond to those very behaviours.  Yes YOUR BEHAVIOUR will DICTATE police action, ...however, that behaviour must first be filtered through the lenses of whatever 'ism' exists.

ie: If we see a frail little old lady try to push a door open with her shoulder... what do we think? That she's having trouble with the door? If we see a frail little old man with a cane try to push a door open with his shoulder, ...what do we think? if that man happens to be Black, does it take on a different dimension?

If an innocent man is upset and seriously agitated and understandably so, ...do we stay calm, and let them rant & rave and get it off their chest... or do we perceive them as potentially causing a riot and arrest them for disorderly conduct.

If a tiny woman with sore feet, unable to get back to her hotel because of road blocks, becomes seriously agitated and understandably so... and as a result goes offside, ...does the HUGE GINORMOUS police officer who is just doing his job, allow her to rant & rave and get it off her chest... and when she runs out of breath, finish her sentence for her... or does he arrest her for disorderly conduct? This very same thing happened to me.

My behaviour was not perceived as threatening, but rather as amusing. If a man behaved the same way I did, it would have been threatening to the officer, ...not in a life sense, but rather in a macho ego sense. Who's got the bigger dick? It would have been a testosterone induced dick swinging contest and I would have been up against the squad car assuming the position. Was racism present in my case? I don't know. I don't think so, ...especially since the cop also happened to be Black, ...but there was an ism present.  Was this sexism in action? You better believe it was? My life, that night in Chicago was positively impacted by sexism. It wasn't favouritism because I was a woman, I was treated with patience & understanding because through the sexist filter, my behaviour was not percieved as overly alarming or threatening, simply amusing. As we drove off, he turned to his buddy and laughingly said "They're beautiful when they're angry aren't they." Was I impacted by sexism? Yes I was. i continue to be impacted by sexism on a daily basis. Sometimes positively... sometimes negatively, ...but i'd not only be a fool to deny it's existence, I'd also be a liar to discount or attempt to dismiss the complaints of those who lives are negatively impacted by sexism daily.

[24KT]

The guy acted like a jerk and the officer remained in control.  As a suspect or person of interest, YOUR attitude dictates the BEHAVIOR of the officer.  Get over it.  If Gates would have remained calm the officer would likely have apologized.  I've seen it before.

There we have it. By your own words... the officer remained in control.
That's what this appears to be in my opinion, an issue of control. Twas a testosterone induced dick swinging contest. Gates wanted to maintain his dignity and control in his own home, and Crowley wanted to maintain control of Gates within Gates' own home. Some might say that in effecting the arrest...Crowley acted like a jerk....

For you to posit Crowley might have apologized if Gates had remained calm, you reveal what you refuse to openly admit, ...that Crowley was in the wrong. He compounded his mistake further, by making a stupid arrest.

[24KT]

What do we think in the instance below? Did this cop have cause to make an arrest and lay charges?

...assault on a police officer, ...disorderly conduct etc etc.,

...or did he exercise better judgement than the "guilty" man he stopped?

How can an officer, assaulted by a ranting & raving guilty lunatic remain calm and not escalate a situation,
while another officer finds himself unable to remain calm in the face of a supposed ranting & raving innocent man?

This is about power & control. Crowley didn't like being challenged by someone threatening to file charges on him, so he compounded his stupid decision with an even more stupid one to make an arrest.

Crowley wanted Gates to dance, ...Gates wouldn't dance!

[Cap]

There we have it. By your own words... the officer remained in control.
That's what this appears to be in my opinion, an issue of control. Twas a testosterone induced dick swinging contest. Gates wanted to maintain his dignity and control in his own home, and Crowley wanted to maintain control of Gates within Gates' own home. Some might say that in effecting the arrest...Crowley acted like a jerk....

For you to posit Crowley might have apologized if Gates had remained calm, you reveal what you refuse to openly admit, ...that Crowley was in the wrong. He compounded his mistake further, by making a stupid arrest.

No, I think had Gates not acted like a jerk Crowley might have said, "sorry about the mix up. Have a nice day, sir."  It doesn't mean he was wrong.  Seriously Jag, you did hear the 911 call right?  It was alleged that a man broke into the house.  Crowley responded to the call and entered the residence thinking a burglary was in progress.  He was entering a possibly dangerous situation and until you know for sure what is going on you have your guard up.  Your assertion that Crowley was trying to keep him in his place is laughable.

[drkaje]

Racism isn't limited to America.

Gates was stupid for getting uppity. The cop has a gun and you don't practice civil disobedience in that type of situation. I'll take the cop's side and assume the situation wouldn't have resulted in an arrest without Gates adding emotions to the situation.

[Cap]

Racism isn't limited to America.

Gates was stupid for getting uppity. The cop has a gun and you don't practice civil disobedience in that type of situation. I'll take the cop's side and assume the situation wouldn't have resulted in an arrest without Gates adding emotions to the situation.

Bingo.  I'm telling you, this is a veteran officer with a good reputation.  He's not going to risk his career on some knucklehead unless Gates was truly wrong.  I don't care what race you are, just keep your mouth shut. 

[tonymctones]

You didn't prove anything, you just reposted something that I already responded to. If you like, you can re-read my previous posts and repost your post. That won't mean you proved anything, but you can tell yourself it does.
Once again, I never heard anyone mention her. Can you show me some instances where she was criticized?

I'm not answering these questions intentionally. Like I said on the first page, when people debate race-especially here- they're really just throwing out a bunch of preconceived notions they have that are often pretty uninformed. The posts I have responded to in this thread are things that I feel are factually incorrect. I have a few opinions on affirmative action- some positive, some not so positive, mostly based in fact- but I don't have strong feelings one way or the other.

Are blacks far more sensitive to race than other races? That's a complicated question. It's subjective and you already have your mind made up, so I think I'll take a pass on that one, too.

I showed your point to be nothing more then a liberal talking point you refused to answer any of my questions towards that end b/c you know it shows your point to be a fallacy...

This is what a conversation is........by your logic anytime ppl have differing views on a subject they shouldnt even talk about it, just plain idiocy.

I agree its a complicated question, the fact though that the racist label is thrown around so easily and without care does apply in the vast majority of cases to blacks...Is it perhaps the media and the bullshit PC era we are in perhaps but it still results in blacks being far more sensitive to race then any other race.

[drkaje]

Bingo.  I'm telling you, this is a veteran officer with a good reputation.  He's not going to risk his career on some knucklehead unless Gates was truly wrong.  I don't care what race you are, just keep your mouth shut. 

Even if the cop is an asshole..... STFU and take your chances in court.

Professor, doctor, lawyer, baker or candle stick maker your still black and have to admit how shit really is. I'll go a step further and say professionals have more worries when it comes to dealing with cops because there's something being arrested, beaten or whatever can take away.

[tonymctones]

Even if the cop is an asshole..... STFU and take your chances in court.

Professor, doctor, lawyer, baker or candle stick maker your still black and have to admit how shit really is. I'll go a step further and say professionals have more worries when it comes to dealing with cops because there's something being arrested, beaten or whatever can take away.

agreed unless your life is in danger stfu and deal with it after the fact you dont fuck with ppl holding guns and that have the ability to arrest you or generally screw up the rest of your day.