Author Topic: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?  (Read 6523 times)

leonp1981

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(2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« on: August 02, 2009, 02:51:55 PM »
John Cena

Is this guy the perfect poster boy for the WWE, ready and willing to go anywhere and do anything that the company asks him to do?  Someone whose charisma and ability to deliver a promo is only bettered by such greats as Hogan, Flair and Rock?  Is he one of the key figures in the success of the WWE in the post-Attitude Era?  Is he the only person to ever have succesfully combined movies and wrestling, without either career being damaged?  And is he a unique character in the way he divides crowds regardless of his heel/face status?

OR

Is he a Hogan replica, someone whose lack of wrestling skills have been masked by personality and charisma?  Does his willingness to do whatever Vince asks damage his credibility, especially concerning his outspoken anti-steroid stance, yet with a bodybuilding background.  Has he already become stale, using the same moveset over and over again.  Has he ever shown what he can do in a truly 'classic' match? 

leonp1981

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2009, 03:55:02 PM »
Someone whose charisma and ability to deliver a promo is only bettered by such greats as Hogan, Flair and Rock? No way. It's his entrance music and the way he looks that sells him. He's incredibly dull on the mic. The salute he does like he's in the military is just plain dumb. As well as the five knuckle shuffle. At least he stopped wearing that chain around his neck and gave up on the whole chain gang thing. Chef Tim has never been a fan of John Cena.

I've personally never been a fan of his promo's, I'd much prefer to watch Rock, Austin or Jericho back in the day.  I think his energy in everything he does is good though.

cheftim

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2009, 04:56:19 PM »
To me I'll always see him as the white rapper/Marky Mark/whigger white bread cracker wannabe. I've been watching Wrestling my entire life. The spinning belt just really didn't do it for me. Every single Federation superstar gave him their push. Even though he was out of his league. Like with HBK at Mania twenty whatever. Cena was so amatuer in that match. Same with all the fueds with Edge. When Edge lost that big match against Cena in his hometown. What was it a TLC match or something? How lame was the match when he handed Umaga his first defeat? When he choked him with the ring rope. We've all seen it. Sometimes coming out up to four times with entrance music on an episode of RAW. Who's been pushed harder then this guy? It's way past his time to turn heel. He's one of the main reasons why the Federation is so stale today. Hey hats off to the guy. Wrestling fan his whole life. Hard work paid off for him. I only felt him one time. When he pulled #30 for the Rumble two years ago at MSG. Crowd went berzerk when his music came on. Other then that. This guy has to pull a NWO Hogan type switch.

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2009, 07:23:51 PM »
I don’t quite know what to make of Cena.
From what I’ve seen, he’s very interesting from the standpoint that I can’t recall ever seeing a wrestler who is so cyclically hot & cold with the fans.

He can play the same part and receive enormous pops one week, get booed out of the building the next, and be cheered again the week after that.

Is he another Hogan, Austin, or Rock, etc.?
If by that you mean is he the total package that those men were, then no.
But if you mean one of the best the Fed has to offer right now, then I believe yes.
There don’t seem to be too many other workers with the looks, skills, and presence that Cena has (on some weeks anyway).

leonp1981

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2009, 07:24:32 PM »
To me I'll always see him as the white rapper/Marky Mark/whigger white bread cracker wannabe. I've been watching Wrestling my entire life. The spinning belt just really didn't do it for me. Every single Federation superstar gave him their push. Even though he was out of his league. Like with HBK at Mania twenty whatever. Cena was so amatuer in that match. Same with all the fueds with Edge. When Edge lost that big match against Cena in his hometown. What was it a TLC match or something? How lame was the match when he handed Umaga his first defeat? When he choked him with the ring rope. We've all seen it. Sometimes coming out up to four times with entrance music on an episode of RAW. Who's been pushed harder then this guy? It's way past his time to turn heel. He's one of the main reasons why the Federation is so stale today. Hey hats off to the guy. Wrestling fan his whole life. Hard work paid off for him. I only felt him one time. When he pulled #30 for the Rumble two years ago at MSG. Crowd went berzerk when his music came on. Other then that. This guy has to pull a NWO Hogan type switch.

I've gotta admit, when he came out at the Rumble, I was pretty excited.  I'll always remember his match at 'One Night Stand' as well, just for the crazy atmosphere.

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2009, 05:11:00 AM »
I absolutely hate the whole "wigger" persona, and I think it has really hurt him in developing his character.  In-ring, very average.  On the mic  he is about on par with what is expected these days.  Repetitive and boring, but has tons of catch phrases that the idiots can chant along with.

On the plus side, I think he is a guy who is a very hard worker and willing to learn.  He loves the business and has the "it" factor for sure. 

Overall- lean more to the hate him side.  More because he's an example of how awful the WWE product is right now than anything else.

leonp1981

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2009, 06:58:50 AM »
Is he another Hogan, Austin, or Rock, etc.?
If by that you mean is he the total package that those men were, then no.
But if you mean one of the best the Fed has to offer right now, then I believe yes.
There don’t seem to be too many other workers with the looks, skills, and presence that Cena has.

Is this because of his talent, or because of the lack of talent around him?  I can't see him being the main eventer if he'd been around 10 years ago, at least not with his current persona.


leonp1981

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2009, 06:59:54 AM »
I absolutely hate the whole "wigger" persona, and I think it has really hurt him in developing his character.  In-ring, very average.  On the mic  he is about on par with what is expected these days.  Repetitive and boring, but has tons of catch phrases that the idiots can chant along with.

On the plus side, I think he is a guy who is a very hard worker and willing to learn.  He loves the business and has the "it" factor for sure. 

Overall- lean more to the hate him side.  More because he's an example of how awful the WWE product is right now than anything else.

I think this has got to be one of the biggest factors in his success.  It's obvious from watching him, and seeing what people have to say about him, that he really does love what he does, and will do anything for the WWE.

Parker

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2009, 07:14:39 AM »
I absolutely hate the whole "wigger" persona, and I think it has really hurt him in developing his character.  In-ring, very average.  On the mic  he is about on par with what is expected these days.  Repetitive and boring, but has tons of catch phrases that the idiots can chant along with.

On the plus side, I think he is a guy who is a very hard worker and willing to learn.  He loves the business and has the "it" factor for sure. 

Overall- lean more to the hate him side.  More because he's an example of how awful the WWE product is right now than anything else.

Remember, The Rock used to be a secondary character of "The Nation" and so was that Pimp dude, who then had is Hoe-train...By that time The Rock had exploded. I think giving the time, John Cena can break outta the mode, and expand like the Rock did.

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2009, 08:28:52 AM »
Is this because of his talent, or because of the lack of talent around him?  I can't see him being the main eventer if he'd been around 10 years ago, at least not with his current persona.

I definitely feel it’s because of the lack of current talent.
I agree that the character would have likely floundered during the birth of the attitude era – just kind of lost in the shuffle so to speak.

Then again, who knows?
Rock and Austin were pretty much accidents.
The guys Vince has tried to push with predetermined effort over the years (Luger, Sid, Orton) just never seem to get off the ground.

Hogan is the only one I can think of that Vince successfully acquired with the mindset, “I’m gonna bring that guy in and make him my main star.” They put him over the Iron Sheik and the rest kind of fell into place all on its own.

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2009, 08:29:58 AM »
Remember, The Rock used to be a secondary character of "The Nation" and so was that Pimp dude, who then had is Hoe-train...By that time The Rock had exploded. I think giving the time, John Cena can break outta the mode, and expand like the Rock did.

The Rock just kinda went with the flow.  No matter how hard he tried to be a face originally, he got booed, so he just became a heel....it was a very natural move for him because of his mic skills.

I think Cena really needs to go that route too.  If I'm not mistaken he was supposed to be a heel from the start of his persona, but too many "ganksta" wanna-be's under the age of 16 put him over as a face.   I think him coming out more "corporate" looking, acting, could really get over.  Maybe have him "get caught" being a faker/sellout to his character..... just a couple of ideas.

Montague

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2009, 12:31:24 PM »
...because he's an example of how awful the WWE product is right now than anything else.

Do you attribute that to him personally, or the way in which he's being used by the company?

QED: If the Fed had done something better with Terry Taylor, then he wouldn't have had to sport a red mohawk and cluck like a chicken in the ring.


Pete Nice

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2009, 01:51:18 PM »
I honestly have to say that Cena is one of my favorite wrestlers of all time.  What he lacks in in-ring skill he more than makes up for in charisma.  He's the only guy in the WWE right now that gets the fans totally amped up 'everytime' his intro music comes on.  To dis' his "wigger" persona is irrelevant IMHO.
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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2009, 03:59:06 PM »
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, Timmy. 8)

leonp1981

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2009, 04:23:07 PM »
They could turn him heel whilst keeping a 'nice guy' element, kind of how they did it with CM Punk over the past couple of months.  Or they could just have him snap and start knocking people out.  I think the latter would be preferred by the fans, but Vince won't do it whilst Cena is the face of the company.  And until he has someone else to be his poster boy, Cena will remain Cena.

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2009, 08:58:22 AM »
Do you attribute that to him personally, or the way in which he's being used by the company?

QED: If the Fed had done something better with Terry Taylor, then he wouldn't have had to sport a red mohawk and cluck like a chicken in the ring.




I blame the company more than him individually.  I think if he had been given a more time tested gimmick that he could develop over time, ala Flair, HBK, etc.... he would be a lot more interesting.  And not just to the teenage wigger element, but to a much broader base.  He certainly has charisma, can't deny that, so I think he could work with a lot of gimmicks/styles.

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2009, 10:50:46 AM »
I think he needs a character/identity/persona more so than a gimmick, although "gimmick" is an interesting choice of words.

The term itself conjures up multiple passe images we’ve seen over the decades.
A gimmick used to refer to the role a wrestler portrayed: a plumber, a corrections officer, a cowboy, etc.
It could also describe the prop that wrestler used: a nightstick, a whip or lasso, etc.

Then in the attitude era, Vince moved his company away from the gimmick thing, dissolved the line between heel and face, and everybody became more of a personality – the same thing guys like Flair had been doing for years.

That, to me, is the time honored/tested protocol.
And the ones who could do it well never had to rely on clown makeup or a rooster outfit.

Cena seems too confined to his “gimmick.”
He needs to expand his character beyond that one-dimensional paradigm and cement himself as JOHN CENA instead of “that white rapper guy.” But before he can just be John Cena, he needs to “create” JOHN CENA. You do that by making the fans interested in WHO you are – not because you carry a nightstick or microphone.

Pete Nice

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2009, 03:14:13 PM »
Never heard anyone say Cena was their all time favorite. Please may I ask what makes him your favorite. My all time favorites are HBK, Flair, and Mr. Perfect. And of course Hulkamania. To dis' Cenas "wigger" persona is irrelevant IYHO? Thats his whole act. He's the white rapper homey that keeps it real. I personally think he's in limbo because his well has run dry. There's no where for him to go. It's heel time for Cena.

 ;D

You seem like a true fan Tim, and have much more knowledge about the industry than I do.  I guess I'm a bit juvenile in the way that I like Cena. I've enjoyed his temperment/charisma since he began in the federation. 

I honestly think that in the past year he has swayed from the "wigger" persona.  The only thing that he still has that represents that is the Ecko "Jorts" that he wears.  He has no remnence of a rap career that he's trying to promote anymore.  He doesn't talk like a black person, using gangster slang, but it is a part of the image McMahon created for him, and it will be hard to deteriorate from.
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leonp1981

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2009, 04:38:06 PM »
Lets start pushing the younger guys over.

Which of the younger guys do you think could be a main eventer?  None of them seem to stand out.  Maybe MVP or Swagger.  Possibly Miz?

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2009, 04:45:54 PM »
Which of the younger guys do you think could be a main eventer?  None of them seem to stand out.  Maybe MVP or Swagger.  Possibly Miz?

I'm still a bit perplexed with why they brought Swagger from ECW.  It's seems he's going to develop into somewhat of a heel for the time being, but it seems they're really not sure what to do with him yet.
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leonp1981

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2009, 05:17:42 PM »
I'm still a bit perplexed with why they brought Swagger from ECW.  It's seems he's going to develop into somewhat of a heel for the time being, but it seems they're really not sure what to do with him yet.

Yeah, I thought it was a bit soon to bring him over.  We'll have to see how he does over the next few months, but with the lack of main eventers over on Smackdown, it would have made more sense to me to send him there.

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2009, 04:44:36 AM »
Swagger for sure. He is only 23 years old and he has a wrestling amateur background. He is not schooled in the "show" side of it. He's pretty good on the stick and his in ring ability is impressive.

Miz is just an annoyance and there is already talk that he will be headed to the ECW brand. The next stop is out the door.

MVP will never surpass the mid card status. Just doesn't have what it takes to WHOO the crowd.

leonp1981

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2009, 05:23:12 AM »
Miz, Cage, Ca$h(DiBiase), and Morrison. Cage was a TNA maineventer. He's going to waste. DeBiase Jr should switch his name to "Cash" and that guy can steal the Federation. Or at least buy it with Daddy's money. His powerslam looks better and better every time I see it. Where's the Million Dollar Dream? Where's the Milion Dollar belt? . Morrison is just truly an amazing athlete. I always thought the Masterpiece could be used way better as well. Throw a fancy ring rope around him. Then a diva. And that guy is golden. Keep it simple.

I agree with DiBiase, great potential in the guy, seems pretty comfortable on the mic already.  I like Christian, but I don't think Vince is much of a fan.  Morrison's biggest problem is that he's crap at promo's.  He can't seem to do speak without trying to smirk/laugh through it.

leonp1981

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2009, 05:27:02 AM »
MVP will never surpass the mid card status. Just doesn't have what it takes to WHOO the crowd.

I really like MVP, and I think he could do a lot of things.  He's only a fraction away from being something special, they just need to give him a push for the title.

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Re: (2nd Aug) Love Or Hate?
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2009, 06:29:14 AM »
I really like MVP, and I think he could do a lot of things.  He's only a fraction away from being something special, they just need to give him a push for the title.
I really don't think people would jump at the opportunity to pay for tickets to watch MVP headline a show.