Misunderstanding about natural limit.

[#1 Klaus fan]

How about the hardness? Did you see any change with that prohormone cycle?

Now kyomu is interested too. Isn't it funny how these "naturals" like to take every damn thing they can get their hands onto legally...they are like the users but in a smaller scale.

[turnerg31]

How about the hardness? Did you see any change with that prohormone cycle?

Not much with the second one but with the first one it was crazy. When I would go to the gym and train I would get some really intense pumps. So much so that it limited my workouts at times.  I was on a high calorie diet which added some extra body fat but damn when I pumped up it was on.  It even got to the point that routine repetitive movements at work would get me pumped.  I would imagine if I would have had a more strict diet I could have maintained a harder look then I did.  Like I said, it wasn't long after the cycle that the gains slowly drifted away.  It's all good though, I felt much better under 220.  When I put on that weight I felt awful. I felt like I was carrying someone on my back all day. Although it was only ten pounds, when you get up near your upper limits and then put on an additional ten, that has an extreme effect.  

Pat

[kyomu]

Now kyomu is interested too. Isn't it funny how these "naturals" like to take every damn thing they can get their hands onto legally...they are like the users but in a smaller scale.

STFU
You are obviously young kids who dont have any idea.
I did a cycle in 1993already and i know how is juicing.
Beside, my life is not only bbing.
Just have more respect to the older guy please.

[kyomu]

Not much with the second one but with the first one it was crazy. When I would go to the gym and train I would get some really intense pumps. So much so that it limited my workouts at times.  I was on a high calorie diet which added some extra body fat but damn when I pumped up it was on.  It even got to the point that routine repetitive movements at work would get me pumped.  I would imagine if I would have had a more strict diet I could have maintained a harder look then I did.  Like I said, it wasn't long after the cycle that the gains slowly drifted away.  It's all good though, I felt much better under 220.  When I put on that weight I felt awful. I felt like I was carrying someone on my back all day. Although it was only ten pounds, when you get up near your upper limits and then put on an additional ten, that has an extreme effect.  

Pat

Mmmm...Sorry. Then I cant admit you as a natural in my opinion.
You must obtain that hard look without any hormone. The real natural bber will have extreme difficulty to get it.

[turnerg31]

By the way, I went and had some blood work done last night. (friend of mine is a nurse and had her Dr. friend square me away) I did blood work ECG and urine.  I haven't gotten the printout of the results but the doctor called me 30 mins later and talked to me about them. Said I was at the high end of normal on my creatine and my CK levels were slightly elevated. My blood pressure was a little high but everything else was good to go.  Whenever I take a stack like that I get overcautious and want to make sure everything is cool. Since I have a hook up it's always good to get things checked out.  I'll take a few days off from the gym while I travel back to Iraq and then it's back in the mix.  Not planning on getting over 220 but I would like to reduce my bodyfat percentage a bit more and maintain my current size. For me it will be easy as long as I'm disciplined at the dinner table.  

Pat

[kyomu]

By the way, I went and had some blood work done last night. (friend of mine is a nurse and had her Dr. friend square me away) I did blood work ECG and urine.  I haven't gotten the printout of the results but the doctor called me 30 mins later and talked to me about them. Said I was at the high end of normal on my creatine and my CK levels were slightly elevated. My blood pressure was a little high but everything else was good to go.  Whenever I take a stack like that I get overcautious and want to make sure everything is cool. Since I have a hook up it's always good to get things checked out.  I'll take a few days off from the gym while I travel back to Iraq and then it's back in the mix.  Not planning on getting over 220 but I would like to reduce my bodyfat percentage a bit more and maintain my current size. For me it will be easy as long as I'm disciplined at the dinner table.  

Pat

Seem like your body react a lots.
Even prohormone is sufficient to look like that.

[turnerg31]

Mmmm...Sorry. Then I cant admit you as a natural in my opinion.
You must obtain that hard look without any hormone. The real natural bber will have extreme difficulty to get it.

I don't really claim natural or not natural. If anyone asks me I'll tell them what I take directly.  I don't have the least bit of problem keeping my mass but as you said the hardness is the real trick.  You saw the picture I posted where I was standing in front of the bus with the Panda, well that is about as hard as I've gotten in years and that was during softball season and we were at a tournament in Bangkok. We'd been sweating our ass off for three days.  I was in descent shape as far as hardness is concerned. Other then that I wouldn't say that I could jump on stage or anything but I'm doing ok.

PT

[turnerg31]

Seem like your body react a lots.
Even prohormone is sufficient to look like that.

Well, I wouldn't say that. I've looked like this for at least the past 10yrs, if not more.  I've only tried the Superdrol/Phere Plex last year for once cycle and the Decabolen for the past 4 weeks.  Those pics I posted earlier are from almost 10yrs ago.  As long as I go to the gym I can maintain my size.  I've been training since I was 9yrs old. No shit.  I started with a 25lbs weight set.  I can remember getting up and hitting the weights every morning.  Haven't stopped since. (I'll be 41 in Sept.)

Pat

[kyomu]

I don't really claim natural or not natural. If anyone asks me I'll tell them what I take directly.  I don't have the least bit of problem keeping my mass but as you said the hardness is the real trick.  You saw the picture I posted where I was standing in front of the bus with the Panda, well that is about as hard as I've gotten in years and that was during softball season and we were at a tournament in Bangkok. We'd been sweating our ass off for three days.  I was in descent shape as far as hardness is concerned. Other then that I wouldn't say that I could jump on stage or anything but I'm doing ok.

PT

You know, we are talking about the natural limit. So any hormone cant be allowed.
About hardness, Those juicers look hard even their bodyfat % is bit high. Its not about BF %.
Anyway, its good to be honest.

[kyomu]

Well, I wouldn't say that. I've looked like this for at least the past 10yrs, if not more.  I've only tried the Superdrol/Phere Plex last year for once cycle and the Decabolen for the past 4 weeks.  Those pics I posted earlier are from almost 10yrs ago.  As long as I go to the gym I can maintain my size.  I've been training since I was 9yrs old. No shit.  I started with a 25lbs weight set.  I can remember getting up and hitting the weights every morning.  Haven't stopped since. (I'll be 41 in Sept.)

Pat

Then do you have some pics when you were on prohormone cycle?

[Topskin69]

I think a good way of looking at it is this... you can be Big, or you can be ripped, without gear....but you really cant do both. Its really a matter of body compisition....I dont really get that much bigger on gear, (probably only 10-15 pounds), but I look a lot better.

[Palpatine Q]

You know, we are talking about the natural limit. So any hormone cant be allowed.
About hardness, Those juicers look hard even their bodyfat % is bit high. Its not about BF %.
Anyway, its good to be honest.

I appreciate Pat's honesty as well. PH's or not he's got very,very good genetics . I think it's funny that everyone universally slams ph's but they are the top selling supps. someone's buying them

[kyomu]

I think a good way of looking at it is this... you can be Big, or you can be ripped, without gear....but you really cant do both. Its really a matter of body compisition....I dont really get that much bigger on gear, (probably only 10-15 pounds), but I look a lot better.

Its hardness.
If the gear is so effective for size, i had to be the smallest in the competition(But I was not).

[kyomu]

I appreciate Pat's honesty as well. PH's or not he's got very,very good genetics . I think it's funny that everyone universally slams ph's but they are the top selling supps. someone's buying them

Agreed. I dont doubt that he could achive his size without prohormone.

[#1 Klaus fan]

I think a good way of looking at it is this... you can be Big, or you can be ripped, without gear....but you really cant do both. Its really a matter of body compisition....I dont really get that much bigger on gear, (probably only 10-15 pounds), but I look a lot better.

If you are talking 15 pounds in great condition, that's a huge difference so I undertand what you mean...

[turnerg31]

You know, we are talking about the natural limit. So any hormone cant be allowed.
About hardness, Those juicers look hard even their bodyfat % is bit high. Its not about BF %.
Anyway, its good to be honest.

My plan once I get back up to Iraq where I can get my diet back on track is to reduce my bodyfat and switch to some high rep training.  I'll increase my cardio and see how hard I can get without loosing all my mass. I don't want to take my weight down below 205. At 5'9 I just think 205 is to small. I'm not sure if or when I will do any more pro/hormones-designer steroids or whatever you want to call it but I can guarantee you one thing, with or without it I will always represent when It comes to getting right.  

[#1 Klaus fan]

You know, we are talking about the natural limit. So any hormone cant be allowed.
About hardness, Those juicers look hard even their bodyfat % is bit high. Its not about BF %.
Anyway, its good to be honest.

You understand every "natural" is like that right? They claim "it"  but over time the truth always comes out one way or the other...

[WillGrant]

Its hardness.
If the gear is so effective for size, i had to be the smallest in the competition(But I was not).

Wrong.

[kyomu]

Wrong.

Yeah. I am talking about regular cycle.
Not GH or slin. They are strong.

[turnerg31]

I've never done a competition but I'm pretty sure of one thing, In order for me to get in condition to compete on stage I would end up loosing most of my size.  Like I said, I'm 5'9 and dieting down from 218 would put me down to nothing. (without gear)  I can see what you mean about the gear and the hardness.  Well since I don't have any plans on getting up on stage, I don't have to worry about that.

Pat

[Method101]

Naturals don't lose that much muscle when dieting correctly, you just overestimate how much muscle you really have.

[turnerg31]

Naturals don't lose that much muscle when dieting correctly, you just overestimate how much muscle you really have.

Yeah, you may be right but the end result is still the same. You end up small, or at least much smaller then you would like to be. I've haven't really gotten in that kind of condition since college so I can't really speak from experience but it seems like every time I start working on my hardness and conditioning I end up (or at least I feel like) I'm getting to small. I've been content to just find the happy median. I can put a shirt on and still look a little swole, take it off and not an ab is sight.    Actually recently I've been actually working on getting my abs back.  Their coming soon. Stay tuned.

Pat

[Palpatine Q]

Yeah, you may be right but the end result is still the same. You end up small, or at least much smaller then you would like to be. I've haven't really gotten in that kind of condition since college so I can't really speak from experience but it seems like every time I start working on my hardness and conditioning I end up (or at least I feel like) I'm getting to small. I've been content to just find the happy median. I can put a shirt on and still look a little swole, take it off and not an ab is sight.    Actually recently I've been actually working on getting my abs back.  Their coming soon. Stay tuned.

Pat

I have a 4 pack

you can see the first two rows then it all falls apart.

I got lucky that i have cool looking intercostals so i look leaner than i am

[Topskin69]

I think Tom Platz said it best... "A body is like a car...and steroids are like putting wax on it."

Steroids work differently for different people...I get a lot harder...and little bigger...but really it just makes me look better...then again my natural bodyweight is fairly big. (about 230-240 at 5"11 at about 12-13% bodyfat)...I only jump up about 10-15 pounds on gear.

M!

[turnerg31]

I have a 4 pack

you can see the first two rows then it all falls apart.

I got lucky that i have cool looking intercostals so i look leaner than i am

Couldn't tell you what my intercostals look like, haven't seen them in a while. lol.   That's great to have a 4 pack and still maintain all that mass.  Keep up the good work.

Pat