Programs to change gays to straights don't work, report says

[tonymctones]

Death penalty is not accepted by society as a whole. Many people consider it immoral and barbaric. And as much as you may attempt to gloss over it, the fact that the death penalty is a response to a crime iIS significant. That's not just a minor detail.It's a penalty for criminal actions.

If you want to drop it, you don't have to respond, but the highlighted text is completely disingenuous. It's like if I were to say, "Yeah, George Bush and Hitler had a lot of things in common. They both breathed oxygen and they both had e's in their names."  Or even, "Mothers and Pedophiles are similar in that they both love children." The comparison itself is loaded, no matter how abstractedly you try to frame it. And it's simply a poor comparison, the reasons for which I"ve already stated multiple times.

Im not going to even respond to the first paragraph with the exception of this, you need to go take a freshman level logic class Al you are wrong about this i dont know if you think im putting down homosexuality and thats why you are so adament about it or what but trust you are wrong.

I was not being disingenuous I first off was not the person to bring up murder and theft. I was simply responding to Oz's post as to their connection. Whether you want to accept it or not there is a comparison there on the level of genetic predisposition which is as far as I went with it YOU where the one that decided to make it into some moral equivalency with argueing with me.

[OzmO]

actually it does as you know these things all have a genetic predisposition as does homosexuality but b/c society deems these things bad you are supposed to suppress them. In fact not but a few decades ago homosexuality was considered a mental disorder its generally b/c of the acceptance of society that they now say let them be gay.

In that sense, sure.  But they are 2 very different things that are not really comparable in the same context for practical purposes. 


It's not practical to allow a person who has a genetic disposition to murder people to be free to do what they want.

But it is practical to let 2 adults do what ever they want (save murder and other stupid obvious things) to each other based on mutual consent.

Also I'm sure there are many other things less impacting and more trivial that we are genetically predisposed to do as well as harder stuff like gambling/intermittent reward

[tonymctones]

In that sense, sure.  But they are 2 very different things that are not really comparable in the same context for practical purposes. 


It's not practical to allow a person who has a genetic disposition to murder people to be free to do what they want.

But it is practical to let 2 adults do what ever they want (save murder and other stupid obvious things) to each other based on mutual consent.

Also I'm sure there are many other things less impacting and more trivial that we are genetically predisposed to do as well as harder stuff like gambling/intermittent reward

agreed and I BLAME YOU FOR THE 30 MINS I HAD TO DEBATE WITH AL I WANT MY 30 MINS BACK YOU ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

addiction to gambling, drugs etc... are frowned upon by society even if they dont impact anybody else but the person addicted to them, why not homosexuality(al i know youre going to read this and get pissed im not saying being gay is bad simply asking a question)?

[OzmO]

agreed and I BLAME YOU FOR THE 30 MINS I HAD TO DEBATE WITH AL I WANT MY 30 MINS BACK YOU ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

addiction to gambling, drugs etc... are frowned upon by society even if they dont impact anybody else but the person addicted to them, why not homosexuality(al i know youre going to read this and get pissed im not saying being gay is bad simply asking a question)?

Because there are tangible negative consequences with gambling and drug abuse along with social and moral issues that are associated with it.  With homosexuality its generally not as tangible or impacting but still has moral issues from a society rooted in religion.


One thing this study does support is the idea that being attracted to the same sex is less of a choice while acting on it is.

[Al Doggity]

Im not going to even respond to the first paragraph with the exception of this, you need to go take a freshman level logic class Al you are wrong about this i dont know if you think im putting down homosexuality and thats why you are so adament about it or what but trust you are wrong.

I was not being disingenuous I first off was not the person to bring up murder and theft. I was simply responding to Oz's post as to their connection. Whether you want to accept it or not there is a comparison there on the level of genetic predisposition which is as far as I went with it YOU where the one that decided to make it into some moral equivalency with argueing with me.

My first paragraph was an apt response to what you wrote. Also, I don't know if you're trying to imply that I'm gay (which I'm not), but the reason I am so "adamant"  is that I've seen you trot out these same bullshit memes before.
I remember a debate between the two of us from not too long ago that featured pretty much the same conversational components. So whether or not your comparisons were limited to genetic predisposition in this thread , in the thread linked below, you use the same murder/violence/homosexuality comparisons and you seem to be much more definitive about where you stand on the issue, in regards to morality. My response was in reference to what you wrote in this thread, along with the poorly reasoned arguments you've laid down in past threads.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=256681.msg3619791#msg3619791

[Al Doggity]

agreed and I BLAME YOU FOR THE 30 MINS I HAD TO DEBATE WITH AL I WANT MY 30 MINS BACK YOU ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How is what Ozmo said any different than what I said? The actual words may be different, but the general idea is the same.

addiction to gambling, drugs etc... are frowned upon by society even if they dont impact anybody else but the person addicted to them, why not homosexuality(al i know youre going to read this and get pissed im not saying being gay is bad simply asking a question)?

Drug and gambling addiction will likely have an negative impact on the user's/sufferer's family and will almost certainly have a negative impact on the user/sufferer.

[MCWAY]

So?  Was does porn addiction, thievery or murder have to do with homosexuality?

This report is based on a series of studies that show trying to change gays to straight doesn't work.  It's not about murder, porn addiction, or thievery.

As Paul Harvey used to say, "And now....Here's the rest of the story!!"

Has APA given nod to gay change therapy?

TORONTO (BP)--In a report that has resulted in widely differing interpretations, a 130-page paper from an American Psychological Association task force Wednesday concluded there is little evidence that "gay-to-straight" therapies work, but -- in a nod to Christian conservatives -- said religious individuals who desire to leave homosexuality should be assisted in doing so.

The report from the APA's Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Homosexuality was much-anticipated and was presented to the body's annual convention following a two-year study in which the task force examined 83 studies on the issue, most of them conducted before 1978.

Many conservatives were left wondering exactly what the paper said, and they weren't alone. The Associated Press and CNN.com ran stories largely focusing on the paper's critique of reparative therapies -- "Programs to change gays to straights don't work," CNN's headline read -- while the Wall Street Journal focused on what it saw as the APA's "striking departure" from its past liberal positions on homosexuality.

In truth, the report had something for both sides of the issue……

Bob Stith, the Southern Baptist national strategist for gender issues and the representative of the denomination's Task Force on Ministry to Homosexuals, said "the report was much better than I had expected" and that it had "enough to give anyone who read it some support." But he, like other conservatives, was frustrated with much of the report.

"There are thousands of people who can say with the man born blind in John 9, 'I once was blind but now I can see,'" Stith told Baptist Press, pointing to passages such as 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 where Scripture declares that homosexuals can change.

Alan Chambers, president of Exodus International, is one such former homosexual. Exodus is a Christian ministry that assists homosexuals who want to change.

"Optimistically, I think that this is gradual change [at APA], and we believe that gradual change is better than no change at all," Chambers told BP. "So, for the APA to come out with some nod toward religious folks who are conflicted about these issues, it's a good sign. What's not good is that they deny the truth of my story and the truth of the story of tens of thousands of other people like me that have experienced not only significant but real and lasting change.

"The APA has said that their psychologists and counselors need to respect a client's religious beliefs," Chambers added. "... That's the first time they've ever acknowledged anything of that nature."


Part of the divide between the APA and the Christian community, Chambers said, could be attributed to what is and is not considered change. For instance, the report criticized recent studies that conservatives have touted as supporting their position. APA brushed off those conclusions by noting the study's subjects "became skilled in ignoring or tolerating their same-sex attractions." The APA considers such a person a homosexual. But Chambers and others like him believe that, biblically speaking, the APA is simply describing former homosexuals who are resisting temptation. In other words, those former homosexuals -- according to Christian theology -- are winning their battle with sin.



http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=31038

[tonymctones]

Drug and gambling addiction will likely have an negative impact on the user's/sufferer's family and will almost certainly have a negative impact on the user/sufferer.

well your arguement for homosexuality was that it would only harm the person within the relationship, so drug addiction and gambling addiction are ok if they only hurt the person doing them? Homosexuality can also have an adverse effect on family members dont you know?

[OzmO]

As Paul Harvey used to say, "And now....Here's the rest of the story!!"

Has APA given nod to gay change therapy?

TORONTO (BP)--In a report that has resulted in widely differing interpretations, a 130-page paper from an American Psychological Association task force Wednesday concluded there is little evidence that "gay-to-straight" therapies work, but -- in a nod to Christian conservatives -- said religious individuals who desire to leave homosexuality should be assisted in doing so.

The report from the APA's Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Homosexuality was much-anticipated and was presented to the body's annual convention following a two-year study in which the task force examined 83 studies on the issue, most of them conducted before 1978.

Many conservatives were left wondering exactly what the paper said, and they weren't alone. The Associated Press and CNN.com ran stories largely focusing on the paper's critique of reparative therapies -- "Programs to change gays to straights don't work," CNN's headline read -- while the Wall Street Journal focused on what it saw as the APA's "striking departure" from its past liberal positions on homosexuality.

In truth, the report had something for both sides of the issue……

Bob Stith, the Southern Baptist national strategist for gender issues and the representative of the denomination's Task Force on Ministry to Homosexuals, said "the report was much better than I had expected" and that it had "enough to give anyone who read it some support." But he, like other conservatives, was frustrated with much of the report.

"There are thousands of people who can say with the man born blind in John 9, 'I once was blind but now I can see,'" Stith told Baptist Press, pointing to passages such as 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 where Scripture declares that homosexuals can change.

Alan Chambers, president of Exodus International, is one such former homosexual. Exodus is a Christian ministry that assists homosexuals who want to change.

"Optimistically, I think that this is gradual change [at APA], and we believe that gradual change is better than no change at all," Chambers told BP. "So, for the APA to come out with some nod toward religious folks who are conflicted about these issues, it's a good sign. What's not good is that they deny the truth of my story and the truth of the story of tens of thousands of other people like me that have experienced not only significant but real and lasting change.

"The APA has said that their psychologists and counselors need to respect a client's religious beliefs," Chambers added. "... That's the first time they've ever acknowledged anything of that nature."


Part of the divide between the APA and the Christian community, Chambers said, could be attributed to what is and is not considered change. For instance, the report criticized recent studies that conservatives have touted as supporting their position. APA brushed off those conclusions by noting the study's subjects "became skilled in ignoring or tolerating their same-sex attractions." The APA considers such a person a homosexual. But Chambers and others like him believe that, biblically speaking, the APA is simply describing former homosexuals who are resisting temptation. In other words, those former homosexuals -- according to Christian theology -- are winning their battle with sin.



http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=31038

Let's see.....

We have an article from the "Baptists Press" that even quotes bible versus,  eludes to "liberal positions on homosexuality", and pretty much doesn't say much other than if a person "wants" to change for religious they should be assisted.  In addition, the article appeals to people who think someone like Chambers or Stith are qualified to  challenge  APA findings.

The article isn't about whether we should help those that want to change especially when the desire to change is tied to religious beliefs which for obvious can cause undue strife and stress.  The article is about that it doesn't usually work and can have damaging effects.

So the "rest of the story" is moot.

[Al Doggity]

well your arguement for homosexuality was that it would only harm the person within the relationship, so drug addiction and gambling addiction are ok if they only hurt the person doing them? Homosexuality can also have an adverse effect on family members dont you know?

No, my point was that there is nothing inherently harmful about homosexuality. Any damage that can occur within/because of a homosexual relationship can occur as a result of a heterosexual relationship, too. It has nothing to do with sexual preference.

Drug addiction and gambling addictions are inherently destructive. 

[tonymctones]

No, my point was that there is nothing inherently harmful about homosexuality. Any damage that can occur within/because of a homosexual relationship can occur as a result of a heterosexual relationship, too. It has nothing to do with sexual preference.

Drug addiction and gambling addictions are inherently destructive. 

whether it could happen in a heterosexual relationship or not had nothing to do with your point that it only harms the person involved. Yes drug addiction and gambling addiction are for the most part destructive extremely destructive but if the only person getting hurt is the person commiting them why should it matter?

[The True Adonis]

I support legalizing Gambling, All Drugs and Prostitution.

[Al Doggity]

whether it could happen in a heterosexual relationship or not had nothing to do with your point that it only harms the person involved.

It had everything to do with my point.

My point was that neither homosexual or heterosexual relationships are inherently harmful to anyone, including the participants of the relationship. The harm I'm referring to is stuff like breaking up or potential for stds, none of which is limited by sexual preference and is just a natural result of any relationship. That is of concern to no one outside of the relationship.

Sure there are probably homosexuals who get beaten by their boyfriends and lesbians who go on cross-country crime sprees, but that was not dictated by the fact that  the couples were homosexual or lesbian. Homosexual relationships don't have anymore of an inherently negative impact on society than heterosexual relationships.

Yes drug addiction and gambling addiction are for the most part destructive extremely destructive but if the only person getting hurt is the person commiting them why should it matter?

Of course, whether or not an individual harms him or herself matters.I never made the claim that it didn't. Additionally, these addictions often lead to illegal behaviors in other areas.  And they often lead to extreme harm of others.

[timfogarty]

TORONTO (BP)--In a report that has resulted in widely differing interpretations, a 130-page paper from an American Psychological Association task force Wednesday concluded there is little evidence that "gay-to-straight" therapies work, but -- in a nod to Christian conservatives -- said religious individuals who desire to leave homosexuality should be assisted in doing so.

and why did this article leave off the last part of that sentence?   "..by being celibate."    There is a big difference between accepting who you are but choosing not to act on it, vs forcing yourself to act in ways counter to your biology.

[tonymctones]

It had everything to do with my point.

My point was that neither homosexual or heterosexual relationships are inherently harmful to anyone, including the participants of the relationship. The harm I'm referring to is stuff like breaking up or potential for stds, none of which is limited by sexual preference and is just a natural result of any relationship. That is of concern to no one outside of the relationship.

Sure there are probably homosexuals who get beaten by their boyfriends and lesbians who go on cross-country crime sprees, but that was not dictated by the fact that  the couples were homosexual or lesbian. Homosexual relationships don't have anymore of an inherently negative impact on society than heterosexual relationships.


Of course, whether or not an individual harms him or herself matters.I never made the claim that it didn't. Additionally, these addictions often lead to illegal behaviors in other areas.  And they often lead to extreme harm of others.

sigh youre missing my point but that seems to be the entire theme of this thread with me and you, so im going to let it go....

[Al Doggity]

sigh youre missing my point but that seems to be the entire theme of this thread with me and you, so im going to let it go....

No. You're missing the point. You keep looking at portions of my posts myopically for the sole purpose of debating and  completely ignoring the point of them.

I can only make an answer so clunky, before I think it contains enough caveats to cover every  irrelevant "What if...?" you can throw back at me.

My initial point, stripped to it's core, is that most of society's laws are common sense. There are practical, justifiable reasons for outlawing things like murder and theft that are beyond debate.

This is the post that led you to  claim there was a justifiable comparison between the two:

Most (if not all) of these reports make the erroneous assumption that this behavior is normal.  As if murder, porn addiction, or thievery are normal forms of behavior

Yes, relationships can cause harm, but there is no inherent harm caused by them, gay or straight. That was my point. A drug addiction almost inevitably leads to self-destruction, and it unfavorably leans towards harm to society (i.e. potential murders, thefts, car crashes, you name it).

[tonymctones]

No. You're missing the point. You keep looking at portions of my posts myopically for the sole purpose of debating and  completely ignoring the point of them.

I can only make an answer so clunky, before I think it contains enough caveats to cover every  irrelevant "What if...?" you can throw back at me.

I could say the exact same thing remember my first response to your first post I said your missing the forest for the trees...

[Al Doggity]

I could say the exact same thing remember my first response to your first post I said your missing the forest for the trees...

Dude, you compared murder to homosexuality and tried to make a claim that the only thing you were comparing was the belief that there was genetic predisposition involved with both. I'm missing the forest for the trees? C'mon.

[tonymctones]

Dude, you compared murder to homosexuality and tried to make a claim that the only thing you were comparing was the belief that there was genetic predisposition involved with both. I'm missing the forest for the trees? C'mon.

no again go back and read I didnt compare somebody else did oz asked what the relation was and I specified they all have a genetic component...

[Al Doggity]

I went back and read. This is the post Ozmo questioned:

Most (if not all) of these reports make the erroneous assumption that this behavior is normal.  As if murder, porn addiction, or thievery are normal forms of behavior

In regards to missing the forest for the trees, how can you read that post and seriously expect anyone to believe that what he meant was that there is a genetic component to all four behaviors. You know perfectly well that is not the case.

[tonymctones]

I went back and read. This is the post Ozmo questioned:

In regards to missing the forest for the trees, how can you read that post and seriously expect anyone to believe that what he meant was that there is a genetic component to all four behaviors. You know perfectly well that is not the case.

I wasnt addressing his post I was addressing Oz's post and he asked

So?  Was does porn addiction, thievery or murder have to do with homosexuality?

This report is based on a series of studies that show trying to change gays to straight doesn't work.  It's not about murder, porn addiction, or thievery.

Youre trying to say that I was trying to take a shot at homosexuality which I wasnt facts are facts and all I did was state a fact. Then we went off into that discussion about society and its views and now this Im done think what you want im tired of argueing this shit with you

DAMN YOU OZMO!!!!!!!!!!

[Al Doggity]

I wasnt addressing his post I was addressing Oz's post and he asked
Youre trying to say that I was trying to take a shot at homosexuality which I wasnt facts are facts and all I did was state a fact. Then we went off into that discussion about society and its views and now this Im done think what you want im tired of argueing this shit with you

DAMN YOU OZMO!!!!!!!!!!

Oz's  post was a question of Colossus' post. You were attempting to "clarify" Colossus' post. There is no way you couldn't have been addressing his post.

I also posted a link in which you stated much more decisively that you felt homosexuality was comparable to murder in terms of morality. Considering you used the exact same comparison, it is reasonable that I would factor that in to how I responded to your post.

[tonymctones]

Oz's  post was a question of Colossus' post. You were attempting to "clarify" Colossus' post. There is no way you couldn't have been addressing his post.

I also posted a link in which you stated much more decisively that you felt homosexuality was comparable to murder in terms of morality. Considering you used the exact same comparison, it is reasonable that I would factor that in to how I responded to your post.

Did I not answer Oz's post?

that was another thread and if you want to bump that Ill go there and argue with you about that. Fact is everything ive said in this thread is correct, your logic is bad and as ive stated you need to take a freshmen level college logic class. I never eluded to that thread you did I simply addressed first oz's post and then yours, YOU are the one that brought that shit into this thread.

[Al Doggity]

Did I not answer Oz's post?

that was another thread and if you want to bump that Ill go there and argue with you about that. Fact is everything ive said in this thread is correct, your logic is bad and as ive stated you need to take a freshmen level college logic class. I never eluded to that thread you did I simply addressed first oz's post and then yours, YOU are the one that brought that shit into this thread.

My reasoning and debating skills are excellent. Your's could use work.

Whether or not you alluded to that thread, you used the exact same argument and the exact same example FROM that thread. On top of that, you explicitly posted an opinion there that you claimed you had not issued forth in this thread and you implied that it may not have been an opinion you held. That is why that thread is relevant. Your posts don't exist in a vacuum. Funny how  you seem to follow 240 and True Adonis from thread to thread bringing up past arguments, yet somehow you believe anything you've posted disappears into the ether and should be completely disregarded. Even when it is, literally, exactly what you've said in a previous thread.

Colossus' post made a direct moral comparison between murder, porn addiction and homosexuality. That is what Ozmo questioned. That is the post you tried to justify. The claim that murder and homosexuality are comparable because they involve genetic components is already weak enough, but when you factor in the post that triggered the line of reasoning, it's complete bullshit.

[tonymctones]

My reasoning and debating skills are excellent. Your's could use work.

Whether or not you alluded to that thread, you used the exact same argument and the exact same example FROM that thread. On top of that, you explicitly posted an opinion there that you claimed you had not issued forth in this thread and you implied that it may not have been an opinion you held. That is why that thread is relevant. Your posts don't exist in a vacuum. Funny how  you seem to follow 240 and True Adonis from thread to thread bringing up past arguments, yet somehow you believe anything you've posted disappears into the ether and should be completely disregarded. Even when it is, literally, exactly what you've said in a previous thread.

Colossus' post made a direct moral comparison between murder, porn addiction and homosexuality. That is what Ozmo questioned. That is the post you tried to justify. The claim that murder and homosexuality are comparable because they involve genetic components is already weak enough, but when you factor in the post that triggered the line of reasoning, it's complete bullshit.

omg I cant even read your entire post anymore, i do remember that thread and again if youd like you can bump that and ill move over there and prove you wrong there as well. My point in that thread was not that murder and homosexuality etc...where on the same level morally, my point was that society deems them either wrong or right which is my point in this thread and if a person thought of homosexuality as wrong for whatever reason why would they be ok with it seeing as it is a choice believe it or not to be homosexual or to indulge their homosexual tendencies?