Author Topic: GM bringing back 1,350 workers  (Read 4613 times)

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2009, 10:17:06 PM »
Those new jobs will balance out this potential future.



Toyota Mulls Shutting NUMMI Plant, Could Impact 50,000 Jobs in California

Toyota (TM) reportedly is looking to end production in March 2010 at NUMMI, the New United Motor Manufacturing Inc. plant in Fremont, just across San Francisco Bay from Silicon Valley. The 5.3 million square foot facility had been a joint venture with General Motors until GM withdrew walked away as part of its bankruptcy filing. NUMMI is the largest corporate employers in Alameda County; the NUMMI web site says the plant has 5,440 employees. (The Reuters story puts the number at 4,500.)

The NUMMI site says it has 3,600 suppliers, including more than 1,000 in California; the site contends the total number of jobs supported by the NUMMI food chain is about 50,000.

According to Reuters, Japan’s Asahi Shimbum reported the planned plant shutdown on its web site. The story said Toyota has started to inform suppliers about the plan; it also said a Toyota spokesman asserted that no official decision had been reached.

Toyota reportedly will transfer production of its Tacoma pickup trucks to a factory in San Antonio, Texas. Production of the Corolla sedan will shift to sites in Ontario, Canada and Japan

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2009, 10:19:37 PM »
Artificial demand brought on by govt. welfare. More people take on more debt, perfectly functioning cars are destroyed thus driving up the cost of older used cars which hurts the poor....the list goes on and on and on.

If these workers were being hired back to produce cars because off of an organic increase in demand brought about by an true and real economic recovery than this story would be getting a whole different treatment on here.  Once this program is gone, where will the demand be for new cars and new debt?



They are borrowing from future sales with this program, that is all.

Soul Crusher

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2009, 05:26:22 AM »
I wouldn't mind one of those new camaros.

And guess what - people dont need a $4500 welfare payment from other taxpayers to buy it.  It is perceived by the customer to be a cool car, like the mustang, and will buy it anyway. 

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2009, 05:29:48 AM »
333 will never see the logic Tu so it's kind of hard to explain it to him.  He just doesn't get that these people will spend this money and stimulate their local economies and help create a flow on effect.  



You are probably the dumbest poster on this thread when it comes to economics.  The ignorance you display is priceless. 

This is phony demand based on a welfare payment from taxpayers so others can go into debt.  This is no different than the cheap mortgage money meltdown where the govt encouraged people to take out home equity to finance consumption of cars, tvs, etc. 

Look how that worked out.  Disaster.  Cars for Clunkers is no differant.   

Decker

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2009, 07:07:23 AM »
Artificial demand brought on by govt. welfare. More people take on more debt, perfectly functioning cars are destroyed thus driving up the cost of older used cars which hurts the poor....the list goes on and on and on.

If these workers were being hired back to produce cars because off of an organic increase in demand brought about by an true and real economic recovery than this story would be getting a whole different treatment on here.  Once this program is gone, where will the demand be for new cars and new debt?

Hint: probably the same place where all that oil demand is hiding.
We can't wait for market corrections.  That's a recipe for disaster.

This stimulus worked.

Is the food put on the table from the newly created jobs 'artificial'?

Why the benefit to the environment by getting these polluting outdated cars off the HWYs justifies the expenditures.

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2009, 07:13:00 AM »
We can't wait for market corrections.  That's a recipe for disaster.

This stimulus worked.

Is the food put on the table from the newly created jobs 'artificial'?

Why the benefit to the environment by getting these polluting outdated cars off the HWYs justifies the expenditures.

Decker - there is no enronoemntal impasct here other than a negative alot of the carbon foot print of car is in its mfg.  Now that they are scrapping these cars, what is the impact of all these cars being trashed? 

This stimulus is not doing shit other than allowing people to put more people in debt and screwing the dealers.  Do you realize that the dealers still have not been paid by the Fed gov yet and have been floating allt his $$$$???

"Cars for Clunkers"  is nothing more than welfare for middle class people.   

GigantorX

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2009, 07:20:02 AM »
We can't wait for market corrections.  That's a recipe for disaster.

This stimulus worked.

Is the food put on the table from the newly created jobs 'artificial'?

Why the benefit to the environment by getting these polluting outdated cars off the HWYs justifies the expenditures.

Talk about not seeing the logic.

It's a temporary boost in sales and demand that was brought about by a govt. spending program that transfers wealth and tax dollars around to sell cars and put more people in debt. This isn't demand and consumption brought on by an economic recovery, rising wages, decreasing U.E., more availability of credit etc etc.

Yes, the CFC program worked, it worked to bring forward demand from future quarters, take affordable old cars off the road and put many people in more debt. When this program ends, what will happen to demand? When demand falls to baseline or drops off, there will be no need for these new workers anymore.

Quote
Is the food put on the table from the newly created jobs 'artificial'?

Not seeing the big picture at all, are we? That food will be on the table as long as there is demand for the cars that is brought about by a temporary govt. spending program. And even with CFC's Ford and, I believe, Hyundai were the only automakers to post month over month sales gains.

Soul Crusher

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2009, 07:25:41 AM »
excerpts from ECONOMICS IN ONE LESSON  by Henry Hazlitt
Chapter II, "The Broken Window"

_________
-
   A young hoodlum, say, heaves a brick through the window of a baker’s shop.  The shopkeeper runs out furious, but the boy is gone.  A crowd gathers, and begins to stare with quiet satisfaction at the gaping hole in the window and the shattered glass over the bread and pies.  After a while the crowd feels the need for philosophic reflection.  And several of its members are almost certain to remind each other or the baker that, after all, the misfortune has its bright side.  It will make business for some glazier.  As they begin to think of this they elaborate upon it.  How much does a new plate glass window cost?  Two hundred and fifty dollars?  That will be quite a sun.  After all, if windows were never broken, what would happen to the glass business?  Then, of course, the thing is endless.  The glazier will have $250 more to spend with other merchants, and these in turn will have $250 more to spend with still other merchants, and so ad infinitum.  The smashed window will go on providing money and employment in ever-widening circles.  The logical conclusion from all this would be, if the crowd drew it, that the little hoodlum who threw the brick, far from being a public menace, was a public benefactor. 
   
Now let us take another look.   The crowd is at least right in its first conclusion.  This little act of vandalism will in the first instance mean more business for some glazier.  The glazier will be no more unhappy to learn of the incident than an undertaker to learn of a death.  But the shopkeeper will be out $250 that he was planning to spend for a new suit.  Because he has had to replace the window, he will have to go without the suit (or some equivalent need or luxury).  Instead of having a window and $250 he now has merely a window.  Or, as he was planning to buy the suit that very afternoon, instead of having both a window and a suit he must be content with the window and no suit.  If we think of him as part of the community, the community has lost a new suit that might otherwise have come into being, and is just that much poorer. 

   The glazier’s gain of business, in short, is merely the tailor’s loss of business.  No new “employment” has been added.  The people in the crowd were thinking only of two parties to the transaction, the baker and the glazier.  They had forgotten the potential third party involved, the tailor.  They forgot him precisely because he will not now enter the scene.  They will see the new window in the next day or two.  They will never see the extra suit, precisely because it will never be made.  They see only what is immediately visible to the eye.*


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- excerpted from Chapter II of Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt.  Find the book at  http://www.FreedomKeys.com/bkecon.htm here.   
 

________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ___

DECKER - THIS WAS WRITTEN 60 YEARS AGO.

DO YOU REALIZE THE FALLACY OF CASH FOR CLUNKERS NOW???   

MRDUMPLING

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2009, 07:28:37 AM »
Let's get something straight...Ford will be fine, thank God, and GM quality is on the up and up and has been for a while.  I would gladly buy one of their trucks right now(I'm considering it).

The thing is about people going into debt...so what?  1. It's their money.  2. No rules have been changed to buy a car, you still have to qualify and if people are getting great deals then let them buy.  Also, maybe these people have a secure job and can afford it.

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2009, 07:33:00 AM »


The thing is about people going into debt...so what?  1. It's their money.  2. No rules have been changed to buy a car, you still have to qualify and if people are getting great deals then let them buy.  Also, maybe these people have a secure job and can afford it.

Fuck me. No wonder the country is a god damn mess.

Hey, who cares if people bought houses they can't afford, the banks said they qualified.

Soul Crusher

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2009, 07:35:09 AM »
Let's get something straight...Ford will be fine, thank God, and GM quality is on the up and up and has been for a while.  I would gladly buy one of their trucks right now(I'm considering it).

The thing is about people going into debt...so what?  1. It's their money.  2. No rules have been changed to buy a car, you still have to qualify and if people are getting great deals then let them buy.  Also, maybe these people have a secure job and can afford it.

That thinking worked out great with mortgages and home equitiy loans didnt it?

We are in this financial mess because of debt, and you think it is a good thing to encourage more debt after the beating the economy took due to bad debt in the housing market?

How dumb can some people be not to realize that the govt is doing the same thing autos that they did with homes?  


  

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2009, 07:40:27 AM »
Cash for Clunkers Is Just a Broken Windshield: Caroline Baum
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Commentary by Caroline Baum

Aug. 5 (Bloomberg) -- Now that the U.S. government is in the auto business, with a 61 percent ownership stake in General Motors and 10 percent in Chrysler, it wants to move inventory.

So it came up with a plan, gave it a catchy name and wrapped it in a patina of environmental do-goodism.

“Cash for clunkers” was touted as a huge success, with cars tearing out of auto showrooms, the program running through its $1 billion appropriation in one week and government servers crashing in response to overwhelming demand from dealers filing for rebates. (At least it wasn’t the drivers that crashed.)

Was the program to induce drivers to turn in old gas- guzzlers for a more fuel-efficient vehicle a success? That depends on how you define success.

Consumers got a “discount,” automakers sold more cars and trucks last week than they would have, and all that “stimulus” -- spending begets income begets spending -- has to be good for the economy, right?

With success like that, why limit the rebates to $4,500? Why not give everyone a $10,000 or $20,000 rebate to turn in an old clunker? And why stop at the cars in the garage when you could get rid of a garage full of accumulated junk, with the government providing rebates to households for unloading what they’ve been meaning to get rid of for years?

A reductio ad absurdum, to be sure. Sometimes reducing a proposition to absurdity is the easiest way to expose its flaws.

The government is transferring money from -- guess who? -- we, the taxpayers, to car buyers. Those buyers would have traded in their cars anyway, albeit at a more leisurely pace, according to Jeremy Anwyl, chief executive of Edmunds.com, an auto information Web site. Knowing their cost would drop on July 24, buyers postponed sales so they could cash in on the program, he says.

Sight Unseen

Transferring money from taxpayers to car buyers is exactly that: a transfer. The money taken from taxpayers can’t be used for something else.

This is the lesson of Frederic Bastiat’s essay, “That Which is Seen, and That Which is Unseen.” Bastiat, a 19th century French political economist, tells the story of a shopkeeper who has to hire a glazier to repair a broken window, providing work and income for him in the process. That’s what is seen.

What is unseen is what the shopkeeper would have done if he didn’t have to pay the glazier. He might have bought shoes for his children, providing income for the shoemaker, who in turn could buy leather to produce more shoes. The glazier’s gain is the shoemaker’s loss. There is no net gain, no job or income creation, from this transaction.

Broken Window Fallacy

The “broken window fallacy,” as it is known, can be applied to all government spending. The $787 billion fiscal stimulus enacted in February transfers money from taxpayers to the government to allocate as it sees fit. The effect of the government’s expenditures shows up as growth in gross domestic product. Auto manufacturers produce more cars to meet the juiced demand, adding to GDP. This is what’s seen.

What is unseen is what would have been produced by the private sector had the government not confiscated future revenue via taxation.

An additional $2 billion to extend cash for clunkers -- the measure passed by the House of Representatives and is awaiting Senate action -- is a drop in the bucket compared with the trillions the government has spent, lent or pledged during the crisis.

Just think of all those broken windows, or windshields, as the case may be.

Cash ‘n Trash

Cash for clunkers requires that trade-ins be scrapped, whether they are fully depreciated or not. How is destroying something good for the nation?

James Hamilton, professor of economics at University of California, San Diego, says cash for clunkers adopts the worst of the New Deal policies and adapts it to today’s circumstances.

The Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1933 “paid farmers to slaughter livestock and plow up good crops, as if destroying useful goods could somehow make the nation wealthier,” Hamilton writes on his blog. “And yet, here we are again, with the cash for clunkers program insisting that working vehicles must be junked to qualify for the subsidy.”

What’s more, the U.S. has effectively adopted Japanese- style industrial policy, or a government-business partnership. In the case of GM, it happens to be partnering with itself.

What about other industries that are constrained by bloated inventories? Why not offer a rebate to homeowners that trade in older, oil-heated houses for new ones using gas heat or solar panels? The government could even mandate that trade-in homes be scrapped (in this case scraped), paring inventories in the process.

If President Barack Obama and the Democratic majority in Congress think these programs are putting us on a path to wealth, they better start looking beyond the 2010 mid-term election.

Then again, what better way to demonstrate the benefits of fiscal stimulus than a parade of new, fuel-efficient vehicles cruising down a newly paved road?

(Caroline Baum, author of “Just What I Said,” is a Bloomberg News columnist. The opinions expressed are her own.)

To contact the writer of this column: Caroline Baum in New York at cabaum@bloomberg.net.

GigantorX

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2009, 07:45:02 AM »
At the end of the day, it was Govt. money and wealth transfer that temporarily increased demand. The Govt. cannot give people money to buy cars for ever.

A real demand increase will be brought about by households with jobs, rising incomes, better financial situations etc. The govt. transferring 500,000 people money from other taxpayers doesn't constitute sustainable growth in the auto sector.

BM OUT

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2009, 07:47:18 AM »
Please stop going on about the Stimulus.

I read the stupid USA today article also... Guess what... Just below that in the USA today gallop poll was a complete reversal where 65% of the respondents thought it was working.

You have yet to show me where it has failed... you're just talking some crap. You do not have an evidence to back that statement up.

It was supposed to create jobs.Its created ZRO jobs.I wuld think that would be obvious as to how its failing.

Decker

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2009, 09:04:27 AM »
Decker - there is no enronoemntal impasct here other than a negative alot of the carbon foot print of car is in its mfg.  Now that they are scrapping these cars, what is the impact of all these cars being trashed? 

This stimulus is not doing shit other than allowing people to put more people in debt and screwing the dealers.  Do you realize that the dealers still have not been paid by the Fed gov yet and have been floating allt his $$$$???

"Cars for Clunkers"  is nothing more than welfare for middle class people.   
There is a marginal environmental bump from the program.  There's no denying that.  Here's an article dumping on that effect:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32290028/ns/us_news-environment/


The main thrust of CFC was as economic stimulus.  That worked extremely well.

Here's an article pointing out the safety improvement benefits, gas consumption reduction, etc.


Why 'Cash for Clunkers' workshttp://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/09/hidary.cash.clunkers/index.html

These points are never raised on these boards and they show CFC as an extremely effective stimulus plan with multiple benefits.


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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2009, 09:07:08 AM »
It was supposed to create jobs.Its created ZERO jobs.

I thought GM added 1500 jobs this month?

Soul Crusher

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2009, 09:07:47 AM »
There is a marginal environmental bump from the program.  There's no denying that.  Here's an article dumping on that effect:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32290028/ns/us_news-environment/


The main thrust of CFC was as economic stimulus.  That worked extremely well.

Here's an article pointing out the safety improvement benefits, gas consumption reduction, etc.


Why 'Cash for Clunkers' workshttp://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/09/hidary.cash.clunkers/index.html

These points are never raised on these boards and they show CFC as an extremely effective stimulus plan with multiple benefits.



Ok, yes, for now, but what happens when the subsidy ends?  

You are going to have a massive drop off in demand as the demand has all been frotnted by the govt payment of $4500.  as soon as that ends, so will the sales.      

Decker

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2009, 09:08:47 AM »
Talk about not seeing the logic.

It's a temporary boost in sales and demand that was brought about by a govt. spending program that transfers wealth and tax dollars around to sell cars and put more people in debt. This isn't demand and consumption brought on by an economic recovery, rising wages, decreasing U.E., more availability of credit etc etc.

Yes, the CFC program worked, it worked to bring forward demand from future quarters, take affordable old cars off the road and put many people in more debt. When this program ends, what will happen to demand? When demand falls to baseline or drops off, there will be no need for these new workers anymore.
All sales subject to ebb and flow.  I don't understand your point.

You miss the larger point that simply stimulating the sale of new cars rings out through the economy--parts, distributors, mechanics, better mileage meaning less oil consumed meaning a positive effect on our trade deficit.

When you think CFC through, it is very effective as a stimulus program.

Quote
Not seeing the big picture at all, are we? That food will be on the table as long as there is demand for the cars that is brought about by a temporary govt. spending program. And even with CFC's Ford and, I believe, Hyundai were the only automakers to post month over month sales gains.
As I pointed out, it is your perspective that is slight.  The benefits of these one time car sales will ring through the economy for years to come.

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2009, 09:14:21 AM »
Ok, yes, for now, but what happens when the subsidy ends?  

You are going to have a massive drop off in demand as the demand has all been frotnted by the govt payment of $4500.  as soon as that ends, so will the sales.      

And so will the national debt and deficits we have to pay to finance this program that benefits some at the expense of everyone else.   

Decker

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2009, 09:22:56 AM »
excerpts from ECONOMICS IN ONE LESSON  by Henry Hazlitt
Chapter II, "The Broken Window"

_________
-
   A young hoodlum, say, heaves a brick through the window of a baker’s shop.  The shopkeeper runs out furious, but the boy is gone.  A crowd gathers, and begins to stare with quiet satisfaction at the gaping hole in the window and the shattered glass over the bread and pies.  After a while the crowd feels the need for philosophic reflection.  And several of its members are almost certain to remind each other or the baker that, after all, the misfortune has its bright side.  It will make business for some glazier.  As they begin to think of this they elaborate upon it.  How much does a new plate glass window cost?  Two hundred and fifty dollars?  That will be quite a sun.  After all, if windows were never broken, what would happen to the glass business?  Then, of course, the thing is endless.  The glazier will have $250 more to spend with other merchants, and these in turn will have $250 more to spend with still other merchants, and so ad infinitum.  The smashed window will go on providing money and employment in ever-widening circles.  The logical conclusion from all this would be, if the crowd drew it, that the little hoodlum who threw the brick, far from being a public menace, was a public benefactor. 
   
Now let us take another look.   The crowd is at least right in its first conclusion.  This little act of vandalism will in the first instance mean more business for some glazier.  The glazier will be no more unhappy to learn of the incident than an undertaker to learn of a death.  But the shopkeeper will be out $250 that he was planning to spend for a new suit.  Because he has had to replace the window, he will have to go without the suit (or some equivalent need or luxury).  Instead of having a window and $250 he now has merely a window.  Or, as he was planning to buy the suit that very afternoon, instead of having both a window and a suit he must be content with the window and no suit.  If we think of him as part of the community, the community has lost a new suit that might otherwise have come into being, and is just that much poorer. 

   The glazier’s gain of business, in short, is merely the tailor’s loss of business.  No new “employment” has been added.  The people in the crowd were thinking only of two parties to the transaction, the baker and the glazier.  They had forgotten the potential third party involved, the tailor.  They forgot him precisely because he will not now enter the scene.  They will see the new window in the next day or two.  They will never see the extra suit, precisely because it will never be made.  They see only what is immediately visible to the eye.*


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- excerpted from Chapter II of Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt.  Find the book at  http://www.FreedomKeys.com/bkecon.htm here.   
 

________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ___

DECKER - THIS WAS WRITTEN 60 YEARS AGO.

DO YOU REALIZE THE FALLACY OF CASH FOR CLUNKERS NOW???   
I'm sorry but I don't have any more time to waste on the folksy bullshit of libertarian Austrian "economists".  That numbnutz Bastiat coined this nonsense and you seem to have taken it to heart.

The only problem with this folksy tale - i.e., not economic - is that all analogies break down.  Just like the broken window fallacy.  The stimulus worked, the jobs are increasing, the related car maintenance is creating more demand-more jobs.


Decker

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2009, 09:25:41 AM »
Ok, yes, for now, but what happens when the subsidy ends?  

You are going to have a massive drop off in demand as the demand has all been frotnted by the govt payment of $4500.  as soon as that ends, so will the sales.      
As I pointed out, all sales are peristaltic in nature...ebb and flow.

The cars purchased with the CFC program will continue to provide stimulus through the years.  Once the economy is humming again and people are back at work, there should be no discernible drop off in sales.

Just read that article.

No stimulu plan is targeted towards permanence.

Soul Crusher

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2009, 09:27:47 AM »
As I pointed out, all sales are peristaltic in nature...ebb and flow.

The cars purchased with the CFC program will continue to provide stimulus through the years.  Once the economy is humming again and people are back at work, there should be no discernible drop off in sales.

Just read that article.

No stimulu plan is targeted towards permanence.

But we will be left with the debt, inflation, and dimunution of the value of the dollar that it took to do this.  You will also have many peiople in debt and default over this. 

You helped some people, but you hurt many others. 

Decker

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2009, 10:27:31 AM »
But we will be left with the debt, inflation, and dimunution of the value of the dollar that it took to do this.  You will also have many peiople in debt and default over this. 

You helped some people, but you hurt many others. 
Not if they are rich.

Soak the rich says I.

They can afford the expenditures.

Soul Crusher

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2009, 10:29:20 AM »
Not if they are rich.

Soak the rich says I.

They can afford the expenditures.

You are clueless Decker- seriously clueless. 

Anyone with a dollar in their pocket is hurt by inflation and the devaluing of the dollar. 

Decker

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Re: GM bringing back 1,350 workers
« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2009, 10:32:58 AM »
You are clueless Decker- seriously clueless. 

Anyone with a dollar in their pocket is hurt by inflation and the devaluing of the dollar. 
And here I go to the dual trouble of playing to your prejudice and offering you free advice in another thread.

This is my thanks from you.

And a final note about your fear of debt...most growth is predicated on debt.