Author Topic: SINGLE PAYER is the ONLY sensible Health Care Reform (Explained plain English)  (Read 3363 times)

The True Adonis

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By Carmen Yarrusso

August 18, 2009

Health care services are in a special category of “services”. Unlike almost all other services in our “free market” economy, most health care services (just like police and fire services) are necessary for all residents—often a matter of life and death.


Incredibly, we treat most health care services as if they were optional for some residents. The extreme costs, the multiple inefficiencies, and the shameful injustice of our current health care system are the guaranteed results of treating heath care services as optional for some residents.


As a civilized nation, we would never tolerate a system where police or fire services were treated as optional for some residents. To understand how utterly absurd our private health care system is, imagine life in America if we treated police and fire services the way we now treat most health care services.

If police and fire services were optional for some

Instead of groups pooling their resources and providing everyone with police and fire services, where each dollar spent provides a dollar’s worth of services (minus the cost to administer payments), imagine introducing a middleman—police and fire insurance companies.


Like our current health care system, about 30% of every dollar we spend wouldn’t provide any police or fire services whatsoever, but instead would go to other insurance company expenses.

Aside from administrative costs to pay for services, insurance companies would pay billions to shareholders as profits, plus spend billions more for advertising, lobbying Congress, huge executive salaries, and paying a large staff whose main job would be to find ways to shift costs to purchasers and providers and to maximize profits by minimizing services.

Like our current health care system, maximizing profits would mean charging the highest possible premiums (money in) while spending as little as possible on actual police and fire services (money out). This is simply smart business.

Insurance companies would compete to enroll residents likely to require the least police or fire services, while trying to avoid residents likely to require the most police or fire services. Like our current health care system, this would guarantee that residents who need these services the most would be the least likely to get them (this is simply smart business).

Those residents unfortunate enough to need services “too often” would be denied, dropped, or charged unaffordable premiums. Those who live in “dangerous” (low profit) areas would simply be denied police or fire services due to “pre-existing conditions” (this is simply smart business).
Insurance companies would have great profit incentives to find myriad ways to deny services or to shift costs because any money spent providing actual services comes right out of their profits. Like our current health care system, this would guarantee millions of residents would have no police or fire services at all (this is simply smart business).

In a civilized society, most health care services are no more optional than police and fire services. It’s patently absurd to put a middleman (whose profit incentives are plainly against the interests of the American people) between us and our health care providers.
A middleman makes no sense for health services

It’s clearly counterproductive to put a middleman between providers of necessary services and those who need these services. This guarantees disastrous results.

Providing real estate services using a middleman (agent) makes sense. A real estate middleman has profit incentives to provide purchasers with reasonably priced products because if prices are too high, purchasers won’t buy and the middleman gets nothing. There’s no profit incentives to deny purchasers what’s being provided. Thus middleman profit incentives benefit both purchasers and providers.

But providing health care services using a middleman is an unambiguous con game. A health care middleman clearly has profit incentives to charge excessive prices precisely because these services are necessary (pay or die). But even worse, a health care middleman has great profit incentives to deny us necessary services because every health care service denied is pure profit (this is simply smart business).

In addition to diverting billions of our health care dollars to profits and other non-health-care expenses, encouraging excessive premiums, and making it very profitable to deny us necessary services, using a middleman also adds hundreds of billions to our health care costs by forcing hospitals and doctors to maintain vast armies of administrators who must battle hundreds of insurance companies (with thousands of different medical plans) all with great profit incentives to deny us as many health care services as they can get away with (this is simply smart business).

It’s beyond foolish to expect insurance companies to act against their profit incentives. A single-payer system is the only reform that can end this devastating rip-off of the American people.

A “public option” would only make things worse

A public option (or a co-op) would simply add another player to our inefficient, fragmented, dysfunctional, multi-payer system. The hundreds of billions we now waste on multi-payer administrative costs would continue unabated.

But worse, a public option would soon be overwhelmed with the sickest (most costly) residents. Why? Because insurance companies compete by discarding the sickest residents (while marketing to the healthiest), a public option would quickly shift even more of the costs of our sickest residents to taxpayers, while freeing insurance companies to compete for healthier (more profitable) residents.

We eventually pay for everyone’s health care anyway

The government already funds more than 60% of all health care spending. We taxpayers already pay a lot for “other people’s” health care. Tax subsidies for private insurance alone cost taxpayers nearly $200 billion a year. We taxpayers give insurance companies about $100 billion a year to provide health care for public employees (such as teachers and police officers).

We all pay when uninsured residents must use expensive emergency rooms. In most cases, had they been given regular preventative care, they would have required much less total health care and thus cost us much less.

An Institute of Medicine study says 18,000 of us pay with our lives each year because we lack health insurance—a shining example of how private health care “saves taxpayers money” (this is simply smart business).

An American Journal of Medicine study says 62% of all bankruptcies (about two million a year) are linked to medical bills (80% had health insurance). When we count the excessive burden our absurd private health care system adds to all businesses, and other such hidden costs, single-payer would be much less expensive and provide much better care (exactly what other countries with single-payer systems have experienced).

Multiple studies show there’s more than enough money in our health care system to serve everyone if it were spent wisely (e.g. 1991 GAO report, 1993 CBO report).

Preserving profits with lies, damn lies, and propaganda

Insurance companies know very well they’re running an extremely profitable con game. They won’t give up their massive profits without a ruthless political fight.

They tell us “government insurance” would mean rationing, bureaucrats getting between us and our doctors, and excessive costs to taxpayers. In fact, these things are much worse now in our private system. Insurance companies don’t really want us to carefully compare their products with single-payer Medicare, which is rated very highly by its 45 million users.

In a national Commonwealth Fund survey, Medicare users were significantly more satisfied with their health care than people using employer-sponsored plans (even though the elderly require by far the most intensive health care services among us). For example, 70% of those with single-payer Medicare said they “always” get access to needed care (specialists, tests, treatment) compared to only 51% of those with private insurance.

Doctors consistently report having few problems with single-payer Medicare, and frequent problems with private insurance companies. A “government bureaucrat” has no incentive to deny us necessary services because he’s spending “other people’s money”. If he denies us a service, the money “saved” just goes toward another’s care. But an insurance company bureaucrat has great incentive to deny us necessary services because the money “saved” goes right into his pocket.

Unlike honest “service” providers, who seek people needing their services, health insurance companies seek those who don’t need their services (while doing all they can to avoid those who do). Insurance companies pretend they’re in the business of providing health care, when their true business is denying health care.

Each year two million of us are bankrupted by medical expenses. Each day, 14,000 of us lose our health insurance. Most of us are just a pink slip away from this horror. Compare this to the peace of mind we’d have with a single-payer system that would always be there for us (all of us).

Why does this blatant con game continue?

Because our government is for sale to the highest bidder. Our government “representatives” thrive on special interest money. They would be severely punished politically (and lose millions) if they were to put the interests of the American people ahead of influential insurance and drug companies.

The health care industry is spending $1.4 million dollars per day to lobby against reform ($126 million in just the first quarter). This is precisely why our “representatives” (Democrats and Republicans) aren’t seriously considering the only sensible way to provide high-quality health care in America—a tried and tested single-payer system.

Our “representatives” are diligently keeping single-payer “off the table” for one reason only: single-payer would easily win in any honest, open debate. Once again our “representatives” are selling us out to special interests.

A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right—Thomas Paine

Private insurance for necessary health care is just plain wrong and it’s been just plain wrong for a very long time.

We the people must unite and take back our government—it surely won’t be given back voluntarily.

The True Adonis

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Bump for TonyMctones

andreisdaman

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tonymctones

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LOL i would like a discussion with you TA not a youtube clip or an editorial a discussion with yourself

basically what this says is we need more competition to help lower costs and the middle man...

Ok eliminate the rule that insurance companies cant cross state lines this will open up each market to alot more competition thus helping drive cost down, eliminate the no pre-existing conditions bs and the denied coverage bs. Institute tort reform to help keep premiums and costs down.

There would still be a middle man if the govt had a public option as well whats to say they wouldnt fuck us the same way? you think if the govt needed to raise funds it wouldnt raise premiums etc for their program?

the idiocy that we already pay for a lot so why not pay for it all bs that they try to push is just stupid.

this doesnt give any reasons why we need a public option if we implement health care reform within our current system other then providing health care to everyone on a few ppls dimes...sorry TA fail

The True Adonis

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LOL i would like a discussion with you TA not a youtube clip or an editorial a discussion with yourself

basically what this says is we need more competition to help lower costs and the middle man...

Ok eliminate the rule that insurance companies cant cross state lines this will open up each market to alot more competition thus helping drive cost down, eliminate the no pre-existing conditions bs and the denied coverage bs. Institute tort reform to help keep premiums and costs down.

There would still be a middle man if the govt had a public option as well whats to say they wouldnt fuck us the same way? you think if the govt needed to raise funds it wouldnt raise premiums etc for their program?

the idiocy that we already pay for a lot so why not pay for it all bs that they try to push is just stupid.

this doesnt give any reasons why we need a public option if we implement health care reform within our current system other then providing health care to everyone on a few ppls dimes...sorry TA fail
1. Government would NOT be a middle man.  They have no say in which doctor you see, where you seek treatment or what you seek treatment for.  They simply pay the bills.  Everyone is covered, nobody is denied coverage or care.  There is no profit for the Government.  The Private Insurance company is the antithesis to this as their ONLY goal is profiteering from Human Suffering.  Nothing else.

2.  There are no premiums at all in a Single Payer system.


3.  Please research how the rest of the civilized and Industrialized world provides and pays for Healthcare.

The True Adonis

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LOL i would like a discussion with you TA not a youtube clip or an editorial a discussion with yourself

basically what this says is we need more competition to help lower costs and the middle man...

Ok eliminate the rule that insurance companies cant cross state lines this will open up each market to alot more competition thus helping drive cost down, eliminate the no pre-existing conditions bs and the denied coverage bs. Institute tort reform to help keep premiums and costs down.

There would still be a middle man if the govt had a public option as well whats to say they wouldnt fuck us the same way? you think if the govt needed to raise funds it wouldnt raise premiums etc for their program?

the idiocy that we already pay for a lot so why not pay for it all bs that they try to push is just stupid.

this doesnt give any reasons why we need a public option if we implement health care reform within our current system other then providing health care to everyone on a few ppls dimes...sorry TA fail

The point is NOT we already pay for it all so why not pay for it all.

The point is WE CURRENTLY PAY MORE than it would cost to deliver a Single Payer system in which every, man, woman and child is provided and covered with healthcare without the need to spend any money on a Company who is doing nothing but seeking profit off of Human Suffering.

We pay TWICE as much as any country per capita for Healthcare, yet we are not even close to getting first world results.  (72nd out of 191 according to the WHO)  Health Insurance or lack thereof is responsible for over 50 percent of all personal bankruptcies in the United States.

Even if one HAS health insurance, you are not guaranteed payment of service and the average family spends 12,000 dollars a year for coverage via premiums from their paycheck or the 12,000 dollar average being picked up by their employer.

Imagine that money kept in the pocket of each family.  Imagine if Small Businesses or Corporations did not have to pay this money en masse.

Single Payer fixes all of this.  EVERY single other country in the modern world operates on a Single Payer system if you`d like to see results.

We pay more than they do currently and are in worse shape healthwise, our outcomes are worse and economically we are WAY WAY WAY WAY worse.  Per Capita we pay more than double.  It makes no fiscal sense to continue on this path.

tonymctones

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1. Government would NOT be a middle man.  They have no say in which doctor you see, where you seek treatment or what you seek treatment for.  They simply pay the bills.  Everyone is covered, nobody is denied coverage or care.  There is no profit for the Government.  The Private Insurance company is the antithesis to this as their ONLY goal is profiteering from Human Suffering.  Nothing else.

2.  There are no premiums at all in a Single Payer system.


3.  Please research how the rest of the civilized and Industrialized world provides and pays for Healthcare.
They would still be the middle man how do you not understand that? what makes you think they wont determine treatment options etc? if there is no profit for the govt we will pay for everything fuck that

again you can take actions to achieve the desired effect of lowering costs and improving coverage without giving everyone else health care...admit it TA this is the one big benefit that you like about the public option...

problem is like ive said in other thread these 2 problems are not connected and they shouldnt be presented as such.

Lets fix the health care system we have now, if we save as much money as obama says we will b/c remember he said we will find the money through reworking the old system then fine we can talk about a public option. Im not in favor of me paying for other ppls shit sorry bro, i know its a cooky idea to let me keep my money but hey call me crazy.

I understand the need for health insurance and like ive said its a worthy cause but lets see some work with the current system and then we will talk...

tonymctones

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The point is NOT we already pay for it all so why not pay for it all.

The point is WE CURRENTLY PAY MORE than it would cost to deliver a Single Payer system in which every, man, woman and child is provided and covered with healthcare without the need to spend any money on a Company who is doing nothing but seeking profit off of Human Suffering.

We pay TWICE as much as any country per capita for Healthcare, yet we are not even close to getting first world results.  (72nd out of 191 according to the WHO)  Health Insurance or lack thereof is responsible for over 50 percent of all personal bankruptcies in the United States.

Even if one HAS health insurance, you are not guaranteed payment of service and the average family spends 12,000 dollars a year for coverage via premiums from their paycheck or the 12,000 dollar average being picked up by their employer.

Imagine that money kept in the pocket of each family.  Imagine if Small Businesses or Corporations did not have to pay this money en masse.

Single Payer fixes all of this.  EVERY single other country in the modern world operates on a Single Payer system if you`d like to see results.

We pay more than they do currently and are in worse shape healthwise, our outcomes are worse and economically we are WAY WAY WAY WAY worse.  Per Capita we pay more than double.  It makes no fiscal sense to continue on this path.
if the option is there more ppl will take advantage of going to the hospital doctor etc...its impossible to know that we would save money its very likely that the estimates are under estimating the actual cost we would take on if everyone had health insurance our culture isnt the same as others you need to take that into account.

my main beef is paying for other ppls shit when they have other viable options...there are plenty of ways to lower costs etc as obama has said and to improve coverage.

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I don't understand the willingness to believe that private corporations are more your friends than the government is - at least you have some control over what the government does - ie. you can vote.

tonymctones

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I don't understand the willingness to believe that private corporations are more your friends than the government is - at least you have some control over what the government does - ie. you can vote.
neither is our friend bro, but the govt can regulate the private business...

so why not implement the shit obama wants to without the public option? as he says that will lower cost and save money the only thing the public option offers is competition. Allow insurance companies to cross state lines this will open up a lot more competition. Then your just left with providing health care to everybody, sorry there are viable options out there the vast majority of ppl that are uninsured right now its not my responsibility to pay for those that dont take advantage of them.

The True Adonis

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neither is our friend bro, but the govt can regulate the private business...

so why not implement the shit obama wants to without the public option? as he says that will lower cost and save money the only thing the public option offers is competition. Allow insurance companies to cross state lines this will open up a lot more competition. Then your just left with providing health care to everybody, sorry there are viable options out there the vast majority of ppl that are uninsured right now its not my responsibility to pay for those that dont take advantage of them.
I worked for United Healthcare for a year. I was assigned the state of Georgia, California and all Ford and GM employees (which Ford had to cut because they could not afford. They were paying more for Health Insurance benefits and as a result had to raise the price of their cars greatly.  Plenty of articles on this.).

There was little to NO variance in these health plans.  Crossing state lines is meaningless especially when there is no variance and the Insurance Company, such as United Healthcare, gets to author the entire plan.

There is no point to "crossing State Lines".  It is meaningless.

50 Million plus are uninsured and "crossing State Lines" with plans does nothing to remedy this.


I ask you, do you feel bad that your tax dollars are wasted on others who have a house fire or a robbery?  Do you feel awful that you have to pay for someone elses protection from criminals?

Not that the above point matters since YOU ALREADY ARE PAYING MORE than you would be if EVERYONE were to be covered under Single Payer.  Therefore your lack of compassion and altruism makes zero sense since you would be SAVING more money and paying LESS than you are now under Single Payer.

tonymctones

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I worked for United Healthcare for a year. I was assigned the state of Georgia, California and all Ford and GM employees (which Ford had to cut because they could not afford. They were paying more for Health Insurance benefits and as a result had to raise the price of their cars greatly.  Plenty of articles on this.).

There was little to NO variance in these health plans.  Crossing state lines is meaningless especially when there is no variance and the Insurance Company, such as United Healthcare, gets to author the entire plan.

There is no point to "crossing State Lines".  It is meaningless.

50 Million plus are uninsured and "crossing State Lines" with plans does nothing to remedy this.


I ask you, do you feel bad that your tax dollars are wasted on others who have a house fire or a robbery?  Do you feel awful that you have to pay for someone elses protection from criminals?

Not that the above point matters since YOU ALREADY ARE PAYING MORE than you would be if EVERYONE were to be covered under Single Payer.  Therefore your lack of compassion and altruism makes zero sense since you would be SAVING more money and paying LESS than you are now under Single Payer.
the crossing of state lines is just one step to help after the regulations etc are put in place...

you act as if these ppl with no health insurance have no viable options, they have plenty of options available to them trying to compare the victims of fire or crime is assinine.

I have plenty of altruism bro I volunteer plenty trust me, there is a difference between helping those who need help and helping those who wont help themselves.

Again you say that but apparently by implementing the rules and regs obama has come up with the savings were going to be able to pay for the entire public option remember thus no raised taxes. So why not implement those and let prices drop?

Are you saying obama was wrong?

The True Adonis

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the crossing of state lines is just one step to help after the regulations etc are put in place...

you act as if these ppl with no health insurance have no viable options, they have plenty of options available to them trying to compare the victims of fire or crime is assinine.

I have plenty of altruism bro I volunteer plenty trust me, there is a difference between helping those who need help and helping those who wont help themselves.

Again you say that but apparently by implementing the rules and regs obama has come up with the savings were going to be able to pay for the entire public option remember thus no raised taxes. So why not implement those and let prices drop?

Are you saying obama was wrong?
Having worked for a Private Health Insurance company, THE WORLD`S LARGEST in fact, I can tell you crossing state lines with plans is pointless and meaningless.  There is no price variation to bargain with. 

Obama`s plan does nothing in the long run to drive down costs or save anything.  I have said this all a long along with many Single Payer advocates.  Obama himself has said a Single Payer is the most fiscally responsible and sound system and if he could scrap the whole system, he would replace it with what the REST OF THE INDUSTRIALIZED world uses.

Obama`s current plans are garbage in the long term as they keep the Profiteering from human suffering, big corporatist oligarchies intact.


The True Adonis

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Having worked for a Private Health Insurance company, THE WORLD`S LARGEST in fact, I can tell you crossing state lines with plans is pointless and meaningless.  There is no price variation to bargain with. 

Obama`s plan does nothing in the long run to drive down costs or save anything.  I have said this all a long along with many Single Payer advocates.  Obama himself has said a Single Payer is the most fiscally responsible and sound system and if he could scrap the whole system, he would replace it with what the REST OF THE INDUSTRIALIZED world uses.

Obama`s current plans are garbage in the long term as they keep the Profiteering from human suffering, big corporatist oligarchies intact.


Furthermore, if you work for a Corporation supplied with Private Healthcare, you have ZERO say in which plans you will be offered, thus ZERO say in who your doctors will be or where you can seek treatment.

The same is true if your Small Business provides you with Health Insurance.  You are solely at their mercy as they try to bargain for the cheapest policies which in turn are not the best care.

You have a severely limited choice in these instances with usually around 1-3 plans to choose from.  From these plans your entire medical coverage is dictated.  You have no choice other than what is in the policy that YOU HAVE NO CONTROL over.

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I don't understand the willingness to believe that private corporations are more your friends than the government is - at least you have some control over what the government does - ie. you can vote.

Ha ha.  Your vote doesnt mean shit when it comes to govt agencies.

BM OUT

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The idea that ANYONE thinks the government "paying the bills" works is about the dumbest thing Ive ever heard.The cars for clunkers was a one billion dollar program[raised to three] and the car dealerships are not getting reimbursed.Imagine if doctors,hospitals ,health care professionals had to wait on the government to get reimbursed.They would be out of buisiness in a year.

The government is a failure at EVERYTHING they do.If they were in the buisiness of health care,the system would collapse in a year.Take a look at where medicare is,trillions in debt.THE GOVERNMENT DOESNT WORK!

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The idea that ANYONE thinks the government "paying the bills" works is about the dumbest thing Ive ever heard.The cars for clunkers was a one billion dollar program[raised to three] and the car dealerships are not getting reimbursed.Imagine if doctors,hospitals ,health care professionals had to wait on the government to get reimbursed.They would be out of buisiness in a year.

The government is a failure at EVERYTHING they do.If they were in the buisiness of health care,the system would collapse in a year.Take a look at where medicare is,trillions in debt.THE GOVERNMENT DOESNT WORK!

On CNBC they confirmed that none of the dealers have been paid.  What a disgrace. 

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The idea that ANYONE thinks the government "paying the bills" works is about the dumbest thing Ive ever heard.The cars for clunkers was a one billion dollar program[raised to three] and the car dealerships are not getting reimbursed.Imagine if doctors,hospitals ,health care professionals had to wait on the government to get reimbursed.They would be out of buisiness in a year.

The government is a failure at EVERYTHING they do.If they were in the buisiness of health care,the system would collapse in a year.Take a look at where medicare is,trillions in debt.THE GOVERNMENT DOESNT WORK!

more and more Doctors are opting out of accepting medicare patients, for this very same reason

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Having worked for a Private Health Insurance company, THE WORLD`S LARGEST in fact, I can tell you crossing state lines with plans is pointless and meaningless.  There is no price variation to bargain with. 

Obama`s plan does nothing in the long run to drive down costs or save anything.  I have said this all a long along with many Single Payer advocates.  Obama himself has said a Single Payer is the most fiscally responsible and sound system and if he could scrap the whole system, he would replace it with what the REST OF THE INDUSTRIALIZED world uses.

Obama`s current plans are garbage in the long term as they keep the Profiteering from human suffering, big corporatist oligarchies intact.


Im back ok now we are getting some where so obama is wrong that the govt run public option would be self sustaining? just curious

Furthermore, if you work for a Corporation supplied with Private Healthcare, you have ZERO say in which plans you will be offered, thus ZERO say in who your doctors will be or where you can seek treatment.

The same is true if your Small Business provides you with Health Insurance.  You are solely at their mercy as they try to bargain for the cheapest policies which in turn are not the best care.

You have a severely limited choice in these instances with usually around 1-3 plans to choose from.  From these plans your entire medical coverage is dictated.  You have no choice other than what is in the policy that YOU HAVE NO CONTROL over.
are you not able to go find your own private insurance if thats what you deem you want to do? dont you get a tax break or something if thats the route you choose to take?

again what makes you think the govt wont do the same thing if we have a single payer system? dont point to examples in other countries the quality of care is slipping in canada right now as well. What makes you think OUR govt wont do the same thing?

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Second, I believe that I am leaning towards agreeing with you on some of these points. This reform, whether or not it has a "public option" has been perverted by the lobbyists who hedged their bets on both sides of the issue with plenty of money and "donations". So it really didn't matter what side "won" the day as the insurance/healthcare industry would win either way.

Before a single-payer system is even proposed we need to completely revamp and simplify our tax code, actually enforce our sovereign borders and enforce, hard, our immigration laws. Also, cutting baseline govt. spending and shrinking the actual govt. would also be a good place to start to free up money for a single payer system.

Our system of spending, taxing, govt. interference, corruption and huge problems with illegal immigration are all roadblock to a single-payer system. Our govt. is too much of a clusterfuck right now to implement anything.

Plenty of other stuff to discuss on this topic, but these are but a few of the points I see.



The True Adonis

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Second, I believe that I am leaning towards agreeing with you on some of these points. This reform, whether or not it has a "public option" has been perverted by the lobbyists who hedged their bets on both sides of the issue with plenty of money and "donations". So it really didn't matter what side "won" the day as the insurance/healthcare industry would win either way.

Before a single-payer system is even proposed we need to completely revamp and simplify our tax code, actually enforce our sovereign borders and enforce, hard, our immigration laws. Also, cutting baseline govt. spending and shrinking the actual govt. would also be a good place to start to free up money for a single payer system.

Our system of spending, taxing, govt. interference, corruption and huge problems with illegal immigration are all roadblock to a single-payer system. Our govt. is too much of a clusterfuck right now to implement anything.

Plenty of other stuff to discuss on this topic, but these are but a few of the points I see.



I agree totally.

We can start with the wasteful Military budget and the winless ongoing wars and the aged foreign bases.  What is the point of storing and maintaining weapons that we NEVER will or will ever intend to use?   The military is a bloated mess and the number one expense of our budget. 


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I agree totally.

We can start with the wasteful Military budget and the winless ongoing wars and the aged foreign bases.  What is the point of storing and maintaining weapons that we NEVER will or will ever intend to use?   The military is a bloated mess and the number one expense of our budget. 



You are right BUT the military is a government run program.Please show me a government run program that has EVER been realed in and cut to save money.Their idea of saving money,or cutting,is cutting the rate of growth.The program still grows,but they cut it down a tad.THIS IS NOT cutting.No government program will ever be cut as long as there are votes to get by expanding it.The military employs thousands of people and that equals votes and that equals more power for senators and congressmen.

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as long as other countries have their TA we have no choice but to have our own. Whether you believe it or not it is a deterent and sets us on even ground when dealing with a hostile nation who also posses WMD.

The True Adonis

  • Getbig V
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  • Fear is proof of a degenerate mind.
as long as other countries have their TA we have no choice but to have our own. Whether you believe it or not it is a deterent and sets us on even ground when dealing with a hostile nation who also posses WMD.
At least we all recognize the wastefulness of the Military Industrial Complex.  What to do about it and how to go about doing it, is the real predicament.

Can`t say we weren`t warned of the dangers and overall impact as soon as the Military Industrial Complex started to take off.  Eisenhower fell on deaf ears in his farewell speech. As history has proven.  :-\