Angry Parents Suing California Schools Over Mandatory Gay-Friendly Classes

[Dos Equis]

Whatever it is, it doesn't matter.  All parts of human culture have a right to exist with in reason.

Everyone has the right to do whatever they want on their own time within the confines of the law.  Whether all of these things should be part of compulsory education that indicates all of this behavior is normal is another story. 

[OzmO]

Everyone has the right to do whatever they want on their own time within the confines of the law.  Whether all of these things should be part of compulsory education that indicates all of this behavior is normal is another story. 

Well, one charge is promoting gay lifestyle.  Don't see it.  And whether its normal or not it does exist.  And no one should get persecuted, disrespected, or discriminated for a lifestyle choice.  A lack of guidance and eduction breeds hatred and fear.

[Dos Equis]

Well, one charge is promoting gay lifestyle.  Don't see it.  And whether its normal or not it does exist.  And no one should get persecuted, disrespected, or discriminated for a lifestyle choice.  A lack of guidance and eduction breeds hatred and fear.

It's not just the "gay lifestyle."  It's much more than that. 

Whether all these lifestyle practices should be deemed normal is a parental decision.  It is entirely possible to disapprove of a lifestyle without disliking, persecuting, etc. the person.  Failing to force this stuff on kids isn't going to breed hatred and fear.   

[Straw Man]

Keep in mind the movement isn't just about "a gay lifestyle."  It's "GLBT," "gender identity," and one I recently heard about:  "intersex" (whatever the heck that means). 

you don't know what intersex means?

[Dos Equis]

 

[Straw Man]

what does that mean?

[OzmO]

It's not just the "gay lifestyle."  It's much more than that. 

Whether all these lifestyle practices should be deemed normal is a parental decision.  It is entirely possible to disapprove of a lifestyle without disliking, persecuting, etc. the person.  Failing to force this stuff on kids isn't going to breed hatred and fear.   

It's not about forcing anything on a kid.  Furthermore, these lifestyles aren't normal.  There's nothing wrong with being not normal. Failing to educate kids does risk the entrance of hatred and fear.  Additionally it is very possible to disapprove a lifestyle and yet educate a person on the sanctity of personal freedoms/choices.

[Straw Man]

It's not about forcing anything on a kid.  Furthermore, these lifestyles aren't normal.  There's nothing wrong with being not normal. Failing to educate kids does risk the entrance of hatred and fear.  Additionally it is very possible to disapprove a lifestyle and yet educate a person on the sanctity of personal freedoms/choices.

especially if they're being taught intolerance at home

[OzmO]

especially if they're being taught intolerance at home

You mean like teaching your child to call former president BUSH a murderer?     

[Straw Man]

You mean like teaching your child to call former president BUSH a murderer?     

not exactly

it's ok to be intolerant of murderers

[OzmO]

not exactly

it's ok to be intolerant of murderers

lol   

[Dos Equis]

It's not about forcing anything on a kid.  Furthermore, these lifestyles aren't normal.  There's nothing wrong with being not normal. Failing to educate kids does risk the entrance of hatred and fear.  Additionally it is very possible to disapprove a lifestyle and yet educate a person on the sanctity of personal freedoms/choices.

That's exactly what they're doing (using force).  Unless a parent can afford to put the kid in private school or home school the kid, both the kid and the parent have no choice in this matter.  

I haven't seen the curriculum, but I would be floored if it didn't treat all of these lifestyle practices as "normal."  There is something wrong with compulsory education that teaches a kid that abnormal behavior is normal.  

I don't buy that "hatred and fear" argument.  It's a total overstatement.  Like saying that all people who don't approve of these varying lifestyle choices are "bigots."  

We are all already taught to respect people.  We have laws on the books that protect everyone, regardless of what kind of lifestyle they lead.  I view this as similar to unnecessary "hate crimes" legislation.  We already criminalize assault, murder, etc.  

This really is about trying to force-feed an agenda to the public and normalize abnormality.  But at the end of the day, the primary issue for me is the intrusion on the parents' rights.    

[Straw Man]

That's exactly what they're doing (using force).  Unless a parent can afford to put the kid in private school or home school the kid, both the kid and the parent have no choice in this matter.  

I haven't seen the curriculum, but I would be floored if it didn't treat all of these lifestyle practices as "normal."  There is something wrong with compulsory education that teaches a kid that abnormal behavior is normal.  

I don't buy that "hatred and fear" argument.  It's a total overstatement.  Like saying that all people who don't approve of these varying lifestyle choices are "bigots."  

We are all already taught to respect people.  We have laws on the books that protect everyone, regardless of what kind of lifestyle they lead.  I view this as similar to unnecessary "hate crimes" legislation.  We already criminalize assault, murder, etc.  

This really is about trying to force-feed an agenda to the public and normalize abnormality.  But at the end of the day, the primary issue for me is the intrusion on the parents' rights.  

bum - what is your "worst case" scenario if your kid had to sit through a class teaching them that it was no OK to intimidate or make fun of kids who might be gay or even just kids they think are strange and abnormal

I'm not quite clear on the harm that could happen to your kid

[Dos Equis]

bum - what is your "worst case" scenario if your kid had to sit through a class teaching them that it was no OK to intimidate or make fun of kids who might be gay or even just kids they think are strange and abnormal

I'm not quite clear on the harm that could happen to your kid

My kids go to private school. 

I don't really care if you're clear or not.  HTH.   

[Straw Man]

My kids go to private school. 

I don't really care if you're clear or not.  HTH.   

ok - let's pretend you're not avoiding the question

let's pretend we're talking about someone who shares your views but can't afford private school

how about that kid

what do you think it is the worst thing that could happen if  she/he had to attend that class

[OzmO]

That's exactly what they're doing (using force).  Unless a parent can afford to put the kid in private school or home school the kid, both the kid and the parent have no choice in this matter.  

That already exists with other curriculum.

I haven't seen the curriculum, but I would be floored if it didn't treat all of these lifestyle practices as "normal."  There is something wrong with compulsory education that teaches a kid that abnormal behavior is normal.

 

I doubt theyd call these lifestyle choices normal and i doubt the kids would see these choices as normal because they see normal and abnormal everyday.

I don't buy that "hatred and fear" argument.  It's a total overstatement.  Like saying that all people who don't approve of these varying lifestyle choices are "bigots."  

Not at all.  Lack of education about social subjects can provoke fear and hatred.  Of course not in every instance or person. 

We are all already taught to respect people.  We have laws on the books that protect everyone, regardless of what kind of lifestyle they lead.  I view this as similar to unnecessary "hate crimes" legislation.  We already criminalize assault, murder, etc.  

This is true, but its not working and adding more education will make it work better and more effectively with more people circumventing parents who would teach their children to hate and persecute.

This really is about trying to force-feed an agenda to the public and normalize abnormality.  

   I don't see anything here that supports the argument that they are trying to normalize abnormal behavior.

But at the end of the day, the primary issue for me is the intrusion on the parents' rights.

In that regard parents rights are already trampled on. 

[Dos Equis]

That already exists with other curriculum.
 

I doubt theyd call these lifestyle choices normal and i doubt the kids would see these choices as normal because they see normal and abnormal everyday.
 

Not at all.  Lack of education about social subjects can provoke fear and hatred.  Of course not in every instance or person. 

This is true, but its not working and adding more education will make it work better and more effectively with more people circumventing parents who would teach their children to hate and persecute.
   I don't see anything here that supports the argument that they are trying to normalize abnormal behavior.

In that regard parents rights are already trampled on. 

All public school curriculum is forced on parents and kids.  That's pretty much my whole point.  Don't take controversial social issues like this and force them on kids over the parents' objections.

How do you conclude that the laws we currently have on the books aren't working?  People are always going to break the law.  We already teach kids to obey the law.  That's not what this whole thing is about.   

[Straw Man]

All public school curriculum is forced on parents and kids.  That's pretty much my whole point.  Don't take controversial social issues like this and force them on kids over the parents' objections.

How do you conclude that the laws we currently have on the books aren't working?  People are always going to break the law.  We already teach kids to obey the law.  That's not what this whole thing is about.   

the class won't do any harm so there's no reason for all the fuss

[OzmO]

All public school curriculum is forced on parents and kids.  That's pretty much my whole point.  Don't take controversial social issues like this and force them on kids over the parents' objections.

How do you conclude that the laws we currently have on the books aren't working?  People are always going to break the law.  We already teach kids to obey the law.  That's not what this whole thing is about.   

Did you read the article you posted?  I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I just don't know any other way to say it.

Basically, you got a bunch of parents who think teaching kids to be respectful of other people's individual choices means promoting alternative lifestyles to their kids.   Nothing in the article or anything posted here, to my knowledge supports that.  You keep on using the word "forced" where it doesn't apply at all in this situation. 

Unfortunately, there are plenty of parents out there who teach their kids to "hate" because in essence, they are ignorant.  That's why education and guidelines on conduct and behavior is important with our kids. 

You ask how do I know that the laws we currently have on our books aren't working?  Are you actually suggesting that there isn't sexual orientation discrimination?  Are you  suggesting children of gay parents never get severely cruelly teased?  We do already teach kids to obey the law.  But also need to teach kids to be respectful of other lifestyle choices.  That's what this is about.  Just as kids are taught, I would hope, that racism is wrong. 

[Dos Equis]

Did you read the article you posted?  I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I just don't know any other way to say it.

Basically, you got a bunch of parents who think teaching kids to be respectful of other people's individual choices means promoting alternative lifestyles to their kids.   Nothing in the article or anything posted here, to my knowledge supports that.  You keep on using the word "forced" where it doesn't apply at all in this situation. 

Unfortunately, there are plenty of parents out there who teach their kids to "hate" because in essence, they are ignorant.  That's why education and guidelines on conduct and behavior is important with our kids. 

You ask how do I know that the laws we currently have on our books aren't working?  Are you actually suggesting that there isn't sexual orientation discrimination?  Are you  suggesting children of gay parents never get severely cruelly teased?  We do already teach kids to obey the law.  But also need to teach kids to be respectful of other lifestyle choices.  That's what this is about.  Just as kids are taught, I would hope, that racism is wrong. 

Yes I read the article.  The way I read it is they are going to teach "all kids in the district's elementary schools about gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender alternative families," which will include some kind of instruction these people are engaged in normal behavior.  If the parents disagree with this instruction, they don't have the option of pulling their kid out of school with an excused absence.  Kids are required to be in school.  That makes it forced.  It certainly isn't voluntary. 

There is all kinds of discrimination.  But in response to my contention that we already have laws on the books and we already teach kids to obey the law, you said "This is true, but its not working."  That's why I asked the question.   

What they are proposing isn't necessary.  I'm personally involved with volunteer work in elementary schools and one of the things we focus on is bullying and teasing.  I'm sure this is done all over the country, including in California. 

But again, this isn't about teaching kids not to tease.  This kind of teaching is already done.  It's about advancing an agenda. 

[OzmO]

Yes I read the article.  The way I read it is they are going to teach "all kids in the district's elementary schools about gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender alternative families," which will include some kind of instruction these people are engaged in normal behavior.  If the parents disagree with this instruction, they don't have the option of pulling their kid out of school with an excused absence.  Kids are required to be in school.  That makes it forced.  It certainly isn't voluntary. 

There is all kinds of discrimination.  But in response to my contention that we already have laws on the books and we already teach kids to obey the law, you said "This is true, but its not working."  That's why I asked the question.   

What they are proposing isn't necessary.  I'm personally involved with volunteer work in elementary schools and one of the things we focus on is bullying and teasing.  I'm sure this is done all over the country, including in California. 

But again, this isn't about teaching kids not to tease.  This kind of teaching is already done.  It's about advancing an agenda. 

You still haven't shown anything that supports advancing an agenda.  Also can you show me where it's instructed that these people are engaged in normal behavior?  And if that "teaching" about teasing is already done, It's not being done effectively.

[LurkerNoMore]

Not a whole lot. 

Bullshit.

Christians are the most intolerant group of people you can encounter.

[LurkerNoMore]

what does that mean?

It's his typical response when he has nothing of any depth to post or counter argue with.

[Dos Equis]

You still haven't shown anything that supports advancing an agenda.  Also can you show me where it's instructed that these people are engaged in normal behavior?  And if that "teaching" about teasing is already done, It's not being done effectively.

I can't show you anything from the curriculum, because I haven't seen it.  Just using common sense.  The people who support this agenda believe all of these alternative lifestyles are normal.  In fact, many of them argue it's genetic.  They also put these lifestyle choices in the same category as innate traits, like race and gender.  You can believe they will be either neutral or say that the behavior is abnormal, but I don't think that's realistic. 

No amount of teaching or punishment will completely stop teasing. 

[Dos Equis]

Bullshit.

Christians are the most intolerant group of people you can encounter.

Quite the opposite.  True Christians are some of the most tolerant group of people you can encounter.