Joe Wilson's Free Health Care

[The Luke]

name one us govt run program that runs in the black? go ahead, now name the govt programs that run in the red go ahead that will take a while

...running in the black or the red is merely a matter of budgeting isn't it? An arbitrary budget could put ANY program into either the red or the black. Ten bucks for defense, a trillion bucks for sewage treatment. Things cost what they cost, waste is a separate issue to budget targets.

The simple fact is America spends neary double what France spends on healthcare. Fact.


But lots of American government-run programs DO run efficiently... Medicare is a prime example of this, and pertinent to this discussion.

With only elderly problem customers (65+), and no "pre-existing condition" opt out clause, medicare still manages to run with only a 4% overhead... the HMOs run at 30%.

Now I know Medicare is going bankrupt long term, but that is only because HMOs cherry-pick the profitable customers. With the same customers, the same demographic pressures and the same inability to cherry-pick customers or deny claims; HMOs go bust even faster than Medicare, due to their exhorbitant overheads.

So where does this "Government cant do nuthin' right" mantra come from?

From the corporations who profit from privitization via their bought and paid for politicians (pretty much every Republican since Reagan) and media outlets (FOX News; Rush Limbaugh; Christian groups)... perhaps?



The Luke

[tonymctones]

...running in the black or the red is merely a matter of budgeting isn't it? An arbitrary budget could put ANY program into either the red or the black. Ten bucks for defense, a trillion bucks for sewage treatment. Things cost what they cost, waste is a separate issue to budget targets.

The simple fact is America spends neary double what France spends on healthcare. Fact.


But lots of American government-run programs DO run efficiently... Medicare is a prime example of this, and pertinent to this discussion.

With only elderly problem customers (65+), and no "pre-existing condition" opt out clause, medicare still manages to run with only a 4% overhead... the HMOs run at 30%.

Now I know Medicare is going bankrupt long term, but that is only because HMOs cherry-pick the profitable customers. With the same customers, the same demographic pressures and the same inability to cherry-pick customers or deny claims; HMOs go bust even faster than Medicare, due to their exhorbitant overheads.

So where does this "Government cant do nuthin' right" mantra come from?

From the corporations who profit from privitization via their bought and paid for politicians (pretty much every Republican since Reagan) and media outlets (FOX News; Rush Limbaugh; Christian groups)... perhaps?

this is true but the govt as a whole runs in the red so this will simply add to it

we have probably more then 2 or 3 times the population as france does...

again you havent addressed that the majority of problems can be addressed with health care reform instead of universal and why you care...

[tonymctones]

here you go hugo apparently MSNBC is in on the fix as well...

[Soul Crusher]

here you go hugo apparently MSNBC is in on the fix as well...

The fact of the matter is that the right is often more reluctant to prtest and march.  The fact that the "right" is getting organized is a great thing and the monopoly of this type of thing by the left is OVER.

You can bet millions and millions of people are sitting home in full agreement of this and wish they were there as well. 

This will only grow BTW.     

[Dos Equis]

Hey genius... I wasn't talking about you... I was talking about Joe Wilson.
Because it's their job. It does not make them "special".

I easily work as hard and have just as much impact on society as your soldiers do. GTFO with you thinking you're better because you are in the military.

No, we don't work as hard as the men and women in uniform.  No, we don't impact society as much as they do.  Yes, they are better than both of us because of the commitment they make to serve our country. 

[tu_holmes]

No, we don't work as hard as the men and women in uniform.  No, we don't impact society as much as they do.  Yes, they are better than both of us because of the commitment they make to serve our country. 

Wrong... Thanks for playing.

Without US, there is no money for them in the first place. They wouldn't have anything.

I am not diminishing what they do... Far from it, but they have no claim to some special treatment either.

It takes everyone to have a society and a stable government... Without them, we have no defense, without our tax dollars they have no ability to perform that function.

Get it?

[Dos Equis]

Wrong... Thanks for playing.

Without US, there is no money for them in the first place. They wouldn't have anything.

I am not diminishing what they do... Far from it, but they have no claim to some special treatment either.

It takes everyone to have a society and a stable government... Without them, we have no defense, without our tax dollars they have no ability to perform that function.

Get it?

Yes we pay for the them to volunteer their lives in service of their country.  Without our tax dollars we don't have the police, firefighters, or the armed forces.  And without those willing to put their lives in danger, our tax dollars would give us nothing in return.  No freedom.  No safety.  No protection. 

They absolutely are entitled to "special" treatment.  You volunteer to sacrifice your health and life in service to others, you're entitled to "special" treatment. 

We're probably not going to agree, but they are better.  Plain and simple.   

[tu_holmes]

Yes we pay for the them to volunteer their lives in service of their country.  Without our tax dollars we don't have the police, firefighters, or the armed forces.  And without those willing to put their lives in danger, our tax dollars would give us nothing in return.  No freedom.  No safety.  No protection. 

They absolutely are entitled to "special" treatment.  You volunteer to sacrifice your health and life in service to others, you're entitled to "special" treatment. 

We're probably not going to agree, but they are better.  Plain and simple.   

This is just a sad statement to make.

[The Luke]

this is true but the govt as a whole runs in the red so this will simply add to it

we have probably more then 2 or 3 times the population as france does...

...your government as a whole runs in the red because of the amount of money America spends on defense/aggression. Simple fact.

Healthcare is more important to the average American and impacts their lives a lot more than undermining foreign governments in order to prolong American imperial hegemony (which only benefits the ultra-rich).


You might have two or three times the population of France (actually five times) but I wasn't claiming America already spends twice as much as the French in total, on healthcare... that figure is PER CAPITA.

Let me repeat that, America spends twice as much as France PER CAPITA on healthcare:
-France has universial coverage; America has 80% coverage
-France has zero coverage denial; America has approx 21% coverage denial
-France has effectively zero banruptcy due to sickness; sickness is the leading cause of banruptcy in America (and 66% of those bankrupted HAVE insurance)
-France spreads the cost over the population via taxes; Americans pay premiums on top of their healthcare taxes
-the French system is non-profit; $300bn a year is skimmed by American HMOs ($1,000 per American)
-France has the best healthcare system in the world (2000 WHO report); America is 37th


So stop the silly arguments about tinkering with this system... it needs overhaul; not reform.

HMOs made $300,000,000,000 in PROFITS last year: $1,000 PROFIT per man, woman and child living in the United States.

The average American family: husband, wife, two kids are spending $4,000 a year of their after-tax, disposable income just on HMO PROFITS... just PROFITS... no coverage, no costs.


Extend Medicare to the entire population (as simple as removing the "over 65" requirement) and the average American family would benefit by:
-$4,000 that goes to HMO profits
-25% of their premiums (in excess of the $4k) as Medicare overhead is 3.5%; HMOs average 30%
-full coverage, no more denials
-no "pre-existing condition" bullshit
-actual preventative care

If the average family is paying $5,000 in premiums annually that would drop to approx $750 annually, and Medicare would finally have some healthy young people to plug the demographic/funding deficit.

Make that a tax and no one can avoid paying their fair share. Problem solved.


The Luke

[Soul Crusher]

If its so great over there - freaking move there! 

[The Luke]

If its so great over there - freaking move there! 

...I'm in Ireland, paying less for a years total healthcare coverage (via taxes) than you guys pay in premiums each month. We have the 19th best system in the world, despite a 4m population and a higher instance of genetic disease: alcoholism, heart disease (maybe dietary); hemochromotosis... we even have a cap on the cost of prescription drugs: the citizen only picks up the first $100 of each months prescriptions.

So I'm already freaking here.


Maybe if more than 10% of the American population actually owned passports you might have some frame of reference.



The Luke

[tonymctones]

once again luke you have presented nothing that says we need a single payer system only that we need reform which most americans agree with...

also you never answered the question as to why a non american would give 2 shits about what WE do WITH OUR OWN COUNTRY?

[The Luke]

once again luke you have presented nothing that says we need a single payer system only that we need reform which most americans agree with...

...what service do HMOs provide?

All they do is deny coverage, and gouge customers as a middleman. Why do you need them? Americans over 65 do just fine without HMOs.

This is like volunteering to pay a 1,000% toll on your medical expenditure, in exchange for a one in five chance of being denied treatment.


That's tantamount to demanding to be allowed pay Lamborghini prices for a shitty little Fiat, then 20% of the time the paid-for car is never delivered.

Yet all you morons are shouting about this being "Freedom"!

Freedom to be robbed blind.


Corporate healthcare is shitting on you, I'd have the dignity not to lick my lips... you guys are eating the shit and insisting its ice-cream.


The Luke

[Soul Crusher]

We have 300 million people of a diverse population.  You have a population less than NYC that is completely homogeneous. 

The two are are completely different. 

[The Luke]

We have 300 million people of a diverse population.  You have a population less than NYC that is completely homogeneous. 

The two are are completely different. 

...why?

A larger poplation would reduce costs, not increase them.

Do Americans need some sort of special healthcare different from the rest of the word? Our doctors are trained to treat human beings, do they need other qualifications to work on Americans?

Or could it be that your government is more firmly in the hands of greedy corporations?

Or is it that your population is so poisoned with propoganda that they don't even understand their own self interest?


The Luke

[tonymctones]

...what service do HMOs provide?

All they do is deny coverage, and gouge customers as a middleman. Why do you need them? Americans over 65 do just fine without HMOs.

This is like volunteering to pay a 1,000% toll on your medical expenditure, in exchange for a one in five chance of being denied treatment.


That's tantamount to demanding to be allowed pay Lamborghini prices for a shitty little Fiat, then 20% of the time the paid-for car is never delivered.

Yet all you morons are shouting about this being "Freedom"!

Freedom to be robbed blind.


Corporate healthcare is shitting on you, I'd have the dignity not to lick my lips... you guys are eating the shit and insisting its ice-cream.


The Luke

AGAIN LUKE YOU HAVENT GIVEN ANY REASON FOR SINGLE PAYER ONLY REFORM WHICH WE ARE IN FAVOR OF.........

also why does a non US citizen care?

[The Luke]

AGAIN LUKE YOU HAVENT GIVEN ANY REASON FOR SINGLE PAYER ONLY REFORM WHICH WE ARE IN FAVOR OF.........

...but you don't favour single payer?

How can I put forward a reason for single payer that you will approve of?

Would you also like a good reason for something else you'd be equally against?

How about reading a little more, informing yourself of actual reality and thinking for yourself... because it will free you from corporate mind control.


The only argument for single payer socialised care is that it is better than every other system in every way:
-cheaper
-better
-cheaper
-universal
-cheaper
-equitable
-did I mention cheaper? Much much cheaper!


Give me a GOOD argument against it? Something more substantiial than "USA! USA! USA!"

I hear lots of criticisms of me personally and lots of pointed questions, but I dont hear any counter arguments?



The Luke

[tonymctones]

we can lower the cost with reform, we can limit shady business practices with reform, nothing you have said other than its universal cant be solved with reform

so the only reason to use a universal system is to create another govt program...

If you could give some arguements for it than fine but all you do is spout cost...we can address that with reform

healthcare is not a right
the program will likely run in the red
raised taxes
health care for illegals when obama pushes for amnesty
lowered standards in treatment/rationed care
NO OPTIONS
Longer waits for care
etc. etc. etc...

I dont think ppl have been going on about america simply want to know why you care being a non american?

[The Luke]

so the only reason to use a universal system is to create another govt program...

...why not simply remove the "over 65" requirement from Medicare and use that already established program?

Medicare is taxpayer-funded government-run socialised healthcare... yet ignorant people actually on Medicare are protesting "Socialism". Medicare works just fine, it might be underfunded, but that's because it doesn't have any healthy young people. Easily fixed.

Medicare is efficient too... running at 3.5% overhead against the HMO 30% overhead, and it doesn't deny coverage.

If you could give some arguements for it than fine but all you do is spout cost...we can address that with reform

How?
The HMOs make $300 bn a year in PROFITS... thats $1,000 per man woman and child, and 50 million Americans don't carry any of that cost meaning Premium payers have to foot the grand per capita burden for both the uninsured and the over 65.

If you pay a healthcare premium, probably $1,500 of it (per person) is pure HMO profit, what you pay above that is 25% overhead and 75% actual healthcare cost.

Reform has to start with you fools deciding just how much toll your HMO overlords deserve for allowing you buy your own healthcare.

How much of your paycheck does a HMO deserve for denying 20% of your claims? They don't offer any other service, so answer that question first.

healthcare is not a right

...why not? It is where I live. Canada and most of Europe too.

Are you afraid of giving rights to minorities?

Or are you afraid of having more rights yourself?

the program will likely run in the red

...do you profit from the HMOs operating in the black?

Did you buy shares in a HMO so you could share in the profit they make denying your coverage?

Do you enjoy buying mansions, sportscars and private jets for HMO execs?

raised taxes

Yes, taxes will be raised.

The new tax will be your current healthcare premium, minus $1,000 per covered member of your family (HMO profits), minus 25% of whatever is left over (HMO overhead). But you won't have to pay your premium any more.

Remember, any number gets smaller when you deduct several thousand from it, then knock off 25%.

health care for illegals when obama pushes for amnesty

...and this is bad because your taxpayer dollars aren't already being used to treat them inefficiently in ERs?

The taxpayer actualy benefits via preventative care (cost saver) and illegals actually buying newly affordable coverage themselves.

Besides with the HMOs out of business, the government can address these problems with the billions of taxpayer dollars it used to pay out directly subsidising HMOs. 

lowered standards in treatment/rationed care
NO OPTIONS
Longer waits for care

...all valid concerns, IF you didn't already run a 20% risk of an infinite wait; followed by bankruptcy; followed by homelessness; followed by a painful untreated death.

At least with Russian Roulette your chances are 1 in 6 and you only risk your own life... not making you family homeless too.

My "longer wait" to see my doctor is usually that afternoon or maybe the next day... in an emergency situation I get treatment in the same order you do (according to priority in the emergency room).

Isn't the peace of mind of universial coverage worth an extra weeks wait for elective surgery?



tonymctones,

I know you've been conditioned to believe these lies, and I don't doubt your perceived sincerity.

But these are the irrational fears of a child. Or a simpleton.


The Luke

[tonymctones]

luke condense that shit or at least put it in a easy to read format i feel like im going to have a seizure trying to read that shit.

[The Luke]

luke condense that shit or at least put it in a easy to read format i feel like im going to have a seizure trying to read that shit.

...it's just your post answered line by line, point by point.

No lengthy paragraphs, with line gaps for new concepts... it's laid out specifically to be easy to read.

Read each sentence/short paragraph, pause, think about it, then read the next point/question which builds upon the previous argument/comment.

Maybe some reading practice is in order?

Just kidding, but I would question if you are actually looking for a reason NOT to read it because you would prefer to avoid the logic of the arguments.



The Luke

[Skip8282]

Maybe some reading practice is in order?

The Luke

YES, COWARD.  SOME READING PRACTICE IS IN ORDER.  NOW, PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH.

Again, what does this have to do with you?  Or Ireland for that matter?  Why do feel compelled to interfere with our affairs?

And again, why are you crying about something that has absolutely no effect on you?  (I love how you keep dodging this one)

also you never answered the question as to why a non american would give 2 shits about what WE do WITH OUR OWN COUNTRY?

also you never answered the question as to why a non american would give 2 shits about what WE do WITH OUR OWN COUNTRY?

also why does a non US citizen care?

[Skip8282]

Let's hear it......bitch.  WHY ARE YOU SO COMPELLED TO INTERFERE WITH THE AFFAIRS OF ANOTHER NATION??

[The Luke]

Let's hear it......bitch.  WHY ARE YOU SO COMPELLED TO INTERFERE WITH THE AFFAIRS OF ANOTHER NATION??

...interfering with the affairs of another nation? WTF? Is that a treasonable offense? Will I be going to Gitmo? Gitmo being the only region of the United States and its controlled territories with universial socialised healthcare. Ironic.

I thought I was just educating some chronically misinformed and abused message board readers as to why they are so bady abused by posting cogent arguments and addressing the issue?

Is this a thread hijack?

Are we moving on to ad hominem attacks now because you guys can't argue your side of the discussion?

Or am I maybe forcing you to question what FOX News told you to think?


I understand that can be frightening... when you've unquestionably accepted and believed something for a long time and then have to consider it logically only to find your own values wanting. You feel betrayed and want to lash out.

Don't worry, it'll be okay... welcome to actual real-world reality. My name is Luke, I'm here for you.



The Luke 

[Skip8282]

Don't worry, it'll be okay... welcome to actual real-world reality. My name is Luke, I'm here for you.



The Luke 

I feel all warm and fuzzy inside.