US panic at China's new ship killer

[240 is Back]

Source: SMH (Australia)

(September 29, 2009) In March, an analyst with the US Navy Institute, Raymond Pritchett, wrote that the news of this new weapon had "created a panic" in the US Navy.

The weapon? It is a ballistic missile designed to strike ships at sea. The US Navy Institute's headline on the report was more dramatic: "Chinese Develop Special 'Kill Weapon' to Destroy US Aircraft Carriers."

The institute's report said the Dong Feng missile was thought to have a range of about 2000 kilometres and a speed of Mach 10: "The size of the missile enables it to carry a warhead big enough to inflict significant damage on a large vessel, providing the Chinese the capability of destroying a US supercarrier in one strike."
(snip)

"The Russians couldn't do it. If it works, it will have the range of a ballistic missile and the accuracy of a cruise missile.

"The Chinese would have the ability to hold our carriers at a great distance - it almost makes the aircraft carriers obsolete.

[Soul Crusher]

Source: SMH (Australia)

(September 29, 2009) In March, an analyst with the US Navy Institute, Raymond Pritchett, wrote that the news of this new weapon had "created a panic" in the US Navy.

The weapon? It is a ballistic missile designed to strike ships at sea. The US Navy Institute's headline on the report was more dramatic: "Chinese Develop Special 'Kill Weapon' to Destroy US Aircraft Carriers."

The institute's report said the Dong Feng missile was thought to have a range of about 2000 kilometres and a speed of Mach 10: "The size of the missile enables it to carry a warhead big enough to inflict significant damage on a large vessel, providing the Chinese the capability of destroying a US supercarrier in one strike."
(snip)

"The Russians couldn't do it. If it works, it will have the range of a ballistic missile and the accuracy of a cruise missile.

"The Chinese would have the ability to hold our carriers at a great distance - it almost makes the aircraft carriers obsolete.

And who sold them that tech for campaign cash 240?

[240 is Back]

And who sold them that tech for campaign cash 240?

America did by taking on the debt and shopping at WMT.  It's not a dem'repub thing either.

If you think they started this program on Jan 21, 2009, you're nuts

[Soul Crusher]

America did by taking on the debt and shopping at WMT.  It's not a dem'repub thing either.

If you think they started this program on Jan 21, 2009, you're nuts

Remember Clinton and Loral? 

Remember Clinton and Larry Schwartz?

Of course you dont 240.   

[240 is Back]

I'd like to hear HH6's nonpartisan response to this weapon, not 33's auto-defense of Dubya.

[Soul Crusher]

Clinton and Chinese Missiles
Charles R. Smith
Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2003
Chinese Army Gets U.S. Missile Technology for Money

A newly released document from the U.S. State Department reveals that the most successful Chinese espionage operation in recent history occurred during the Clinton administration.

The document accuses Hughes Space and Communications Company of violating U.S. national security 123 times by knowingly sending detailed missile and space technology directly to the Chinese army.

According to the State Department, the most serious violations occurred when Hughes gave the Chinese army information that supported its analyses of the investigation of the January 1995 failure of the launch of a China Long March 2E (LM-2E) rocket carrying the Hughes-manufactured ASTAR II commercial communications satellite.

On Jan. 26, 1995, approximately 52 seconds into flight, a Chinese LM-2E carrying the Hughes APSTAR II communications satellite failed. This was the LM-2E's second failure. The first failure of the LM-2E in December 1992 involved an attempted launch of the Hughes OPTUS B-2 commercial communications satellite.

"Respondents decided to form and direct a launch failure investigation beginning in January 1995 and continuing throughout much of that year. The investigation involved the formation of several groups of leading technical experts from China and the U.S., which throughout the investigation engaged in an extensive exchange of technical data and analysis, producing a wide range of unauthorized technology transfers," noted the State Department charge document.

"At no time did the Respondents seek or receive a license or other written approval concerning the conduct of their APSTAR II failure investigation with PRC authorities," states the charge document.

According to the State Department, "this strategy was further influenced by Respondents' business interests in securing future contracts with the PRC and with Asian satellite companies in which PRC influence figured prominently, and concern that U.S. Government policy constraints on technology transfer as administered by ODTC were an impediment to achieving these interests."

Chinese Rocket Failure Blamed on U.S.

According to a 1998 Defense Department investigation, the reason for Hughes passing the technical information to China was because the Chinese army blamed Hughes for the rocket failure.

"Following the APSTAR II failure, there was disagreement between Hughes and the Chinese about whether the principal cause of the failure was the launch vehicle or the satellite. The subsequent joint Hughes-Chinese failure investigation was apparently intended, at least in part, to resolve this dispute," states the 1998 Defense Department report.

"According to the Hughes/Apstar materials, the disagreement between Hughes and the Chinese focused on two views of the cause of the launch failure: (1) the Chinese claim that the satellite was defective as evidenced by satellite fuel igniting; and (2) Hughes' claim that the satellite was a contributing factor only after the launch vehicle fairing had failed which exposed the satellite to catastrophic conditions."

"DoD believes that the scope and content of the launch failure investigation conducted by Hughes with the Chinese following the January 1995 APSTAR II failure raises national security concerns both with regard to violating those standards and to potentially contributing to China's missile capabilities," states the Defense Department report.

PLA General Shen Rongjun

Chinese General Shen Rongjun led the penetration of U.S. missile and space technology during the Clinton administration. The 2002 State Department letter makes it clear that they believe Gen. Shen led the successful penetration of the Clinton administration and Hughes.

In 1994, Gen. Shen was second in command of a Chinese army unit known as COSTIND, or the Commission On Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense. Shen, and his COSTIND operatives in front companies, secured a wide range of advanced missile and space technology from Hughes after a 1994 meeting with Commerce Secretary Ron Brown.

Commerce documents obtained using the Freedom of Information Act show that Brown met with Gen. Shen in 1994 during a trade trip to Beijing. President Clinton personally authorized the meeting between the Chinese general and Brown.

Before moving to Commerce, Brown headed the Democratic National Committee. The Federal Election Commission fined the DNC in 2002 for "knowingly and willingly" accepting donations from Chinese army sources.

Gen. Shen did obtain help from the White House by pressuring Hughes with satellite contracts. Hughes CEO Michael Armstrong wrote President Clinton in 1993 threatening to pull support for Clinton if he did not allow the space technology transfers to China. In 1994, Clinton approved a waiver for Hughes to transfer advanced satellite encryption systems to China.

According to a Sept. 20, 1995, memorandum, Hughes regarded Gen. Shen Rongjun as "the most important Chinese space official."

The Chinese army penetration of Hughes was so successful that Gen. Shen managed to get his son, Shen Jun, a job at Hughes as the lead software engineer for all Chinese satellites. According to Hughes, Shen Jun had access to "proprietary" satellite source code.

"On July 9, 1996, Respondents submitted a munitions export license application to ODTC seeking authorization for one of its employees, Shen Jun, described as a dual Canadian Chinese national, in order to provide Chinese-English language translation and interpretation support for the preliminary design phase of the APMT satellite project," states the 2002 charge letter.

"In no place in that submission nor otherwise did HUGHES SPACE AND COMMUNICATIONS COMPANY inform ODTC that this individual was, in fact, the son of PLA General and COSTIND Deputy Director Shen Rongjun, which fact was material to the U.S. Government's consideration of whether the license application should be approved or denied."

"The record indicates that Shen Jun's role for Respondents went well beyond that of an interpreter/translator and more closely resembled that of an intermediary with his father, General Shen, and other PRC space authorities, in order to cultivate their support in various matters of interest to Hughes, including the handling of the APSTAR II launch failure investigation and the APMT contract," noted the State Department 2002 charge letter.

According to the State Department, Hughes contends that it followed the law with regard to hiring Gen. Shen's son.

"Respondents have maintained as of December 3, 2002, that this information was not material and that its omission was proper because there is no place in the munitions license application for them to disclose father-son relationships between General officers at the People's Liberation Army who are overseeing a project they are working on and their foreign national employees working in U.S. facilities on the same project."

Clinton Overrules Secretary of State

The alleged improper export by Hughes of satellite technology was cited as a key reason when Clinton's secretary of state, Warren Christopher, rejected a plan to give the Commerce Department full authority to control satellite exports.

According to a Sept. 22, 1995, memorandum, Christopher rejected plans to give Commerce the authority to approve satellite exports after an interagency study noted that "significant" military and intelligence capabilities could be lost.

The memorandum stated the Pentagon and U.S. intelligence agencies strongly opposed the policy change because Hughes exported two satellites with sensitive cryptographic technology without first getting a State Department munitions license. Cryptographic technology is used to scramble communications sent to satellites to prevent unauthorized access.

President Clinton, who transferred the power to regulate sensitive satellites to Commerce, under Commerce Secretary Ron Brown, ultimately overruled Christopher.

Clinton's transfer allowed the Chinese army to acquire advanced U.S. technology for military purposes. Hughes satellites currently provide the Chinese army with secure communications that are invulnerable to earth combat and highly accurate all-weather navigation for strike bombers and missiles.

Hughes satellites purchased by Shen also provide direct TV and cable TV broadcasts to most of Asia. Thus, cable and pay-per-view services help pay for the Chinese army satellite communications. The brilliant planning and logistics mean that Chinese military communications pay for themselves.

Clinton Legacy – A New Arms Race

The satellite and missile technology obtained from Hughes by the Chinese army is critical for the design and manufacture of missile nose cones and electronic missile control systems. The technology clearly helped the Chinese army field a new generation of ICBMS, including the Dong Feng 31 missile, which can drop three nuclear warheads on any city in the U.S.

The success of Shen is a story of missiles, politics and greed. Gen. Shen succeeded in using Hughes and President Clinton as valuable tools to obtain weapons that are now pointed at the United States.

China won and the U.S. lost what may very well be the first round of World War III. Gen. Shen led that victory and he did it with a checkbook. The Clinton legacy for the 21st century is a new arms race.


________________________ ________________________ ____________

Your memory is short 240.   Many of us remember history.   

[Soul Crusher]

ESTABLISHING THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY AND MILITARY/COMMERCIAL CONCERNS WITH THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA (House of Representatives - June 18, 1998)

--

[Page: H4760]

From MSNBC, May 27, 1998

[FROM MSNBC, MAY 27, 1998]

Time Line of Clinton China Decisions

(BY TOM CURRY AND ROBERT WINDREM)

As the Clinton administration debated whether to allow U.S. satellites to be lofted into orbit aboard Chinese missiles, Bernard Schwartz, chairman of Loral Space & Communications, and Democratic fund-raiser Johnny Chung, allegedly using money from the Chinese army, gave more than $500,000 in soft money, ostensibly used for `party-building efforts,' to the Democrats.

The Justice Department and Congress are investigating how a technical report on the explosion of a Chinese missile in 1996--a report that could help China assess the reliability of its missile arsenal--found its way into the hands of the Chinese.

That report was prepared by employees of Loral, Hughes Electronics and other firms.

In a statement issued May 18, Loral said that `Bernard Schwartz, chairman of Loral Space & Communications Ltd. . . . was not personally involved in any aspect of this matter. No political favors or benefits of any kind were requested or extended, directly or indirectly, by any means whatever.'

The firm also declared that: `Allegations of a connection between the launch failure and a subsequent presidential authorization for use of Chinese launch services for another [Loral] satellite to China are without foundation.'

Nonetheless, Justice Department and congressional investigators are sure to scrutinize the chronology of gifts and decisions.

The time line does not prove any cause-and-effect relationship between donations and decisions. It does give investigators a basis for their criminal inquiry.

April 24, 1995: Loral chairman Schwartz gives $25,000 to the Democratic National Committee.

June 30, 1995: Schwartz gives $20,000 to Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, which provide support for Democratic Senate candidates.

Aug. 30, 1995: Schwartz gives $75,000 to DNC.

Sept. 30, 1995: Schwartz gives $20,500 to DSCC.

Oct. 9, 1995: Secretary of State Warren Christopher decides satellites should remain a military munitions item.

Nov. 29, 1995: Schwartz gives $100,000 to DNC.

Nov. 29, 1995: A Chinese government agency writes Loral, asking for help in getting an upgrade for its dual-use imaging technology, exports of which are prohibited under U.S. sanctions.

Jan. 26, 1996: Loral is sold to Lockheed for $9 billion.

CLINTON APPROVES LAUNCH

Feb. 6, 1996: Clinton approves the launch of four communications satellites on Chinese rockets.

Feb. 6, 1996: Wang Jun of CITIC, owners of percentages in Chinese satellite companies, visits the White House for coffee and dines with Commerce Secretary Ron Brown.

Feb. 8, 1996: The White House and Commerce Department begin to talk about the satellite export issue again.

Feb. 14, 1996: A Chinese rocket carrying Loral Intelsat satellite explodes, destroying a Chinese village.

Feb. 15, 1996: Schwartz gives $15,000 to DSCC.

Feb. 15, 1996: The State Department gets an urgent request from the White House to speed up the process of switching the satellite licensing to the Commerce Department.

Feb. 29, 1996: Schwartz gives $50,000 to Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, which bankrolls Democratic House candidates.

March 8, 1996: China launches missiles.

March 14, 1996: Clinton decides to move the satellite licensing function to the Commerce Department.

March 15, 1996: Loral President J.A. Lindfelt writes Commerce to say the export of a dual-use technology, known as synthetic aperture radar, is being held up by the Defense, State and Commerce departments.

April 1996: Schwartz announces the formation of Loral Space and Communications.

April 24, 1996: Schwartz gives $50,000 to DSCC.

June 10, 1996: Schwartz gives $100,000 to DNC.

July 22, 1996: Liu Chao-Ying of China Aerospace meets Clinton with Johnny Chung.

July 31, 1996: Schwartz gives $5,000 to DSCC.

INFLUX OF CHINESE MONEY

August 1996: Chung accounts show an influx of $300,000 from Liu Chao-Ying.

Aug. 18, 1996: Chung gives $20,000 to DNC to attend Clinton's birthday party.

Aug. 28, 1996: Chung gives $15,000 to DNC at Democratic National Convention in Chicago.

Sept. 16, 1996: Schwartz gives $30,000 to DSCC.

Sept. 20, 1996: Schwartz gives $20,000 to DSCC.

Oct. 16, 1996: Schwartz gives $10,000 to DSCC.

Oct. 18, 1996: Schwartz gives $70,000 to DNC.

Oct. 24, 1996: Schwartz gives $5,000 to DSCC.

Nov. 5, 1996: New guidelines on Commerce licensing of satellites are published.

Nov. 5, 1996: Clinton is elected to his second term as president.

Oct., 1997: A federal investigation of Loral begins.

Feb. 12, 1998: As Clinton ponders whether to sign another waiver allowing launch of a Loral satellite aboard a Chinese missile, National Security Adviser Sandy Berger sends him a memo saying the Justice Department `has cautioned that a national interest waiver in this case could have a significant adverse impact on any prosecution [of Loral] that might take place based on a pending investigation of export violation.'

But Berger adds that `the advantages of this project outweigh the risk,' and `it is inappropriate to penalize [Loral] before they have even been charged with any crime.'

Feb. 18, 1998: Clinton signs a waiver allowing Loral satellite to be lifted into orbit by the Chinese.


________________________ _____________

240 - maybe you should take some ginsing so you can remember history a little better. 

[SAMSON123]

Source: SMH (Australia)

(September 29, 2009) In March, an analyst with the US Navy Institute, Raymond Pritchett, wrote that the news of this new weapon had "created a panic" in the US Navy.

The weapon? It is a ballistic missile designed to strike ships at sea. The US Navy Institute's headline on the report was more dramatic: "Chinese Develop Special 'Kill Weapon' to Destroy US Aircraft Carriers."

The institute's report said the Dong Feng missile was thought to have a range of about 2000 kilometres and a speed of Mach 10: "The size of the missile enables it to carry a warhead big enough to inflict significant damage on a large vessel, providing the Chinese the capability of destroying a US supercarrier in one strike."
(snip)

"The Russians couldn't do it. If it works, it will have the range of a ballistic missile and the accuracy of a cruise missile.

"The Chinese would have the ability to hold our carriers at a great distance - it almost makes the aircraft carriers obsolete.

That's one way of keeping US hegemony out of the west Pacific region.

BTW what is an american carrier ship doing over there in the first place? And since america does so much business with China, why would it be afraid that the Chinese would have such a weapon and would use it on america? Is america a WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING?...lol.

THE SHEEP HAVE TEETH NOW AND WILL BITE.

[grab an umbrella]

That's one way of keeping US hegemony out of the west Pacific region.

BTW what is an american carrier ship doing over there in the first place? And since america does so much business with China, why would it be afraid that the Chinese would have such a weapon and would use it on america? Is america a WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING?...lol.

THE SHEEP HAVE TEETH NOW AND WILL BITE.

I cant remember the name of the gun thats on those carriers, but it shoots thousands and thousands of rounds per minute/second and the idea is that it creates a wall of bullets that a missle has to fly through.  It will be interesting to see HH6's take on all this.

[headhuntersix]

SEA WIZ..and we're using a varient of this on our fobs to waste rockets...I guess it works. A rocket like this would be pretty hard to stop kinetically...that is, shooting it down. It travels extremely fast. We posted this article in march when it came out. We'd have to hit the launch sites and we do have superior electronic attack capabilities. The Silkworm was a threat to US naval power...u defeat or mitigate this by sub launched tomahawks against the launch sites. We know our shit works, does their's? If ur not going to build the US Navy part 2..u build stuff to kill it. The game continues.

[GigantorX]

I cant remember the name of the gun thats on those carriers, but it shoots thousands and thousands of rounds per minute/second and the idea is that it creates a wall of bullets that a missle has to fly through.  It will be interesting to see HH6's take on all this.

It's called the Phalanx system. The problem is that, I believe, the Silkworm etc all travel at mach speeds and water skimming altitudes only to pop up at the last moment. This makes it very tough to get a firing solution and shoot it down.

[240 is Back]

man that military stuff in mindboggling, HH6.  fascinating.  any good military forums you recommend to read?

[headhuntersix]

If u want to get smart...read small wars journal...the guy is awsome and it doesn't cheerlead politics..just soldiers but really explains why fighting these bastards is tough. I'd look at stratfor.com...my job pays for a membership. Read Military review online...some of the stuff may be boring but if u get something out of one article per issue ur ahead. I alos like blackfive.net and thisaint'thell.com..great milblogs.

[GigantorX]

If u want to get smart...read small wars journal...the guy is awsome and it doesn't cheerlead politics..just soldiers but really explains why fighting these bastards is tough. I'd look at stratfor.com...my job pays for a membership. Read Military review online...some of the stuff may be boring but if u get something out of one article per issue ur ahead. I alos like blackfive.net and thisaint'thell.com..great milblogs.

strategypage is good, can be a bit rough but you get some great posters with background etc in there, lots of good debate. Military.com and Bill Roggio's Long War Journal.

[240 is Back]

thanks guys

[GigantorX]

thanks guys

No, thank you.

[240 is Back]

No, thank you.

I'm scared to debate there, i'll just lurk. 

[Alex23]

Remember Clinton and Loral? 

Remember Clinton and Larry Schwartz?

QFT. Loral was quite a fiasco.