Author Topic: Hogan or Flair? (Read 9154 times)

Playboy · « **Reply #25 on:** October 05, 2009, 07:26:21 AM »

Quote from: The Showstoppa on October 05, 2009, 05:02:45 AM

Incredible promo. I laugh when people think the Rock, Austin, etc... can even come close to those type of promos. Complete kayfabe and has the crowd eating out of his hand the whole time. Whooooooooooooooo !!!

Flair's promos took the cake. This was a good find. If any of you want a good time, buy the Ric Flair DVD with the purple cover.

indie-lad · « **Reply #26 on:** October 05, 2009, 03:27:38 PM »

I said it before and I'll say it again.

1. Hulk Hogan
2. Ric Flair

3. Everyone else...

brooklynbruiser · « **Reply #27 on:** October 05, 2009, 03:50:05 PM »

I love 'em both, but Flair edges it out just for his over-the-top preening and mic game. I'm a sucker for vain heels.

cobra_4 · « **Reply #28 on:** October 05, 2009, 05:30:37 PM »

Quote from: The Showstoppa on October 05, 2009, 05:02:45 AM

Incredible promo. I laugh when people think the Rock, Austin, etc... can even come close to those type of promos. Complete kayfabe and has the crowd eating out of his hand the whole time. Whooooooooooooooo !!!

Exactly. Lets see one of them put themself over, put the company over, plug there match, plug the upcoming paper view, keep the crowd into it for four minutes, and get heat without hardly stopping to think about what they are saying.

Thin Lizzy · « **Reply #29 on:** October 05, 2009, 09:03:51 PM »

Quote from: cobra_4 on October 05, 2009, 05:30:37 PM

Exactly. Lets see one of them put themself over, put the company over, plug there match, plug the upcoming paper view, keep the crowd into it for four minutes, and get heat without hardly stopping to think about what they are saying.

He also managed to throw in a dig at the WWF, when he says, "Thanksgiving night, there's nothing else going on." If I'm not mistaken, the Survivor Series show was also being held that night.

I've given my share of public presentations. That promo is off the chart: a ten: Flair just takes the idea and sells it to the nth degree.

Also, as you said, to get that emotional without losing your train of thought is freakin' hard, as was shutting up the kids who were heckling him, then, effortlessly getting right back on track.

cobra_4 · « **Reply #30 on:** October 06, 2009, 05:06:22 AM »

Quote from: Thin Lizzy on October 05, 2009, 09:03:51 PM

He also managed to throw in a dig at the WWF, when he says, "Thanksgiving night, there's nothing else going on." If I'm not mistaken, the Survivor Series show was also being held that night.

I've given my share of public presentations. That promo is off the chart: a ten: Flair just takes the idea and sells it to the nth degree.

Also, as you said, to get that emotional without losing your train of thought is freakin' hard, as was shutting up the kids who were heckling him, then, effortlessly getting right back on track.

Good point I didn't even catch the dig at Survivor Series. That is awesome.

Montague · « **Reply #31 on:** October 06, 2009, 12:21:07 PM »

Quote from: The Showstoppa on October 05, 2009, 05:02:45 AM

Incredible promo. I laugh when people think the Rock, Austin, etc... can even come close to those type of promos. Complete kayfabe and has the crowd eating out of his hand the whole time. Whooooooooooooooo !!!

To long time geeks such as ourselves, yes - the comparison is laughable.
But in all fairness to Rock & co., those guys came up in a different era.

Flair was arguably the greatest on the mic throughout the 70's, 80's, & much of the 90's.
By the time Rocky & Austin made it to the big time, the climate had changed.

The days of 4+ minute promos that had depth, emotion, and meaning were replaced by boobies & catch phrases.
But that was down to the fans.
Crowds never played sing-along with Flair’s interviews.
But that’s what they now wanted, and Austin, Rock, etc. delivered.

It’s analogous to comparing Nicholson’s “Joker” to Ledger’s.
Both great performances, but such different portrayals that it’s difficult to do a direct comparison of anything other than the quality of delivery.

The Showstoppa · « **Reply #32 on:** October 06, 2009, 01:54:53 PM »

Quote from: Montague on October 06, 2009, 12:21:07 PM

To long time geeks such as ourselves, yes - the comparison is laughable.
But in all fairness to Rock & co., those guys came up in a different era.

Flair was arguably the greatest on the mic throughout the 70's, 80's, & much of the 90's.
By the time Rocky & Austin made it to the big time, the climate had changed.

The days of 4+ minute promos that had depth, emotion, and meaning were replaced by boobies & catch phrases.
But that was down to the fans.
Crowds never played sing-along with Flair’s interviews.
But that’s what they now wanted, and Austin, Rock, etc. delivered.

It’s analogous to comparing Nicholson’s “Joker” to Ledger’s.
Both great performances, but such different portrayals that it’s difficult to do a direct comparison of anything other than the quality of delivery.

I understand what you are saying as the fans today also can't watch 5 minutes of a match without chanting boring, unless somebody dives off the roof or sets his nuts on fire.

I've never really cared to do too much comparisons between era's, for the reasons you stated. However, I will say that Flair is widely recognized as the greatest on the mic by most in the biz over the last 25-30 years.

Much like I prefer a worker who can wrestle a "catch can" style, depending on the crowd, opponent, etc... vs a wrestlers matches that seem over planned, with little room for being creative, I prefer a promo that the wrestler himself obviously developed and delivered without a script from 10 writers in the back.

cobra_4 · « **Reply #33 on:** October 06, 2009, 06:10:25 PM »

Quote from: The Showstoppa on October 06, 2009, 01:54:53 PM

I understand what you are saying as the fans today also can't watch 5 minutes of a match without chanting boring, unless somebody dives off the roof or sets his nuts on fire.

I've never really cared to do too much comparisons between era's, for the reasons you stated. However, I will say that Flair is widely recognized as the greatest on the mic by most in the biz over the last 25-30 years.

Much like I prefer a worker who can wrestle a "catch can" style, depending on the crowd, opponent, etc... vs a wrestlers matches that seem over planned, with little room for being creative, I prefer a promo that the wrestler himself obviously developed and delivered without a script from 10 writers in the back.

I agree 100%. There is no emotion in the interviews today though. No good fueds. When your fueding with a different guy each week its hard to build any raw emotion towards him. And its a shame that very few guys today could go out there and cut an interview on someone without 90% of it being prewritten back stage.

Also as someone said above Flair lived the "Ric Flair" role and that is what made it so damn good. People believed it because believed it and lived it. Everyone knows John Cena doesn't go home and hit the streets being a eminem rapper wanna be thug, hell even Stone Cold admitted in a recent muscle and fitness interview that he wasn't a beer drinking SOB. But you could see Flair anywhere outside of the ring, especially in the 80's, and he WAS RIC FLAIR and that is what made him so good.

But your right there is no way to compare the 80's and early 90's to what we have now, the fans are different, they want different things. Could you imagine how many fans would turn off monday if Cena wrestled Orton to a sixty minute draw next week? Especially if it was a good old fashion wrestling match? How long do you think they could keep the crowd into it before everyone headed for a beer? The bottom line is wrestling sucks now!! Thank God for DVD's,old VHS tapes, and you tube!!!

cobra_4 · « **Reply #34 on:** October 07, 2009, 04:33:40 AM »

Quote from: cheftim on October 06, 2009, 09:07:14 PM

It is just seriously going in the wrong direction. A PPV with all Cell matches? Then Monday Cena and Orton setting their Iron Man match for the next PPV. Cena's going on how he and Orton have a classic rivalry. It was so bad. These two guys are like oil and water. It's amazing how far ring entrance music can carry a guy. Cena sucks. Now they're gonna have a "no rules" Ironman match. It's so stupid. Cena has got to loose? I mean come on now. Is the title gonna switch hands every PPV? If Cena was never in the Military? What the F is he saluting about???

Yeah what happened to the days of long title runs? If they would have swapped titles this much in the 80's Flair would probably be a fifty time world champion. But the titles don't mean anything now. Its just a state prop. And there is NOTHING classic about Cena and Orton.

The Showstoppa · « **Reply #35 on:** October 07, 2009, 04:49:42 AM »

Quote from: cobra_4 on October 07, 2009, 04:33:40 AM

Yeah what happened to the days of long title runs? If they would have swapped titles this much in the 80's Flair would probably be a fifty time world champion. But the titles don't mean anything now. Its just a state prop. And there is NOTHING classic about Cena and Orton.

Agree completely with you and cheftim on the fueds/titles. In the 80's, and even somewhat in the 90's, a feud would brew for months before they had a blowoff match. Now, with the fans having the attention span of a gnat, they can't let it develop. They just cram two guys together, swap a title back and forth, and think it creates heat.

I think the gray area between heel and face is partly responsible for this too. I know the "attitude era" effectively ended it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. It's like when the Horsemen were running things...even though some of us embraced them, there was no doubt they were 100% heels.

Just think back to the days when guys were riding the road, 4 in a car, shitty pay, and they were developing their own storylines while they did it ripping along at 90mph, probably having a few cold ones. Now the wrestlers rely on a team to develop everything about their character, matches, promo's, etc... EVERYTHING.

The creativity side is dead.

leonp1981 · « **Reply #36 on:** October 07, 2009, 05:25:54 AM »

Quote from: The Showstoppa on October 07, 2009, 04:49:42 AM

Just think back to the days when guys were riding the road, 4 in a car, shitty pay, and they were developing their own storylines while they did it ripping along at 90mph, probably having a few cold ones. Now the wrestlers rely on a team to develop everything about their character, matches, promo's, etc... EVERYTHING.

The creativity side is dead.

Agreed. I wish they'd let the guys do that again, instead of having a room full of guys who are writing crazy storylines to impress Vince more than impress the fans.

Thin Lizzy · « **Reply #37 on:** October 07, 2009, 05:37:24 AM »

Quote from: The Showstoppa on October 07, 2009, 04:49:42 AM

Agree completely with you and cheftim on the fueds/titles. In the 80's, and even somewhat in the 90's, a feud would brew for months before they had a blowoff match. Now, with the fans having the attention span of a gnat, they can't let it develop. They just cram two guys together, swap a title back and forth, and think it creates heat.

I think the gray area between heel and face is partly responsible for this too. I know the "attitude era" effectively ended it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. It's like when the Horsemen were running things...even though some of us embraced them, there was no doubt they were 100% heels.

Just think back to the days when guys were riding the road, 4 in a car, shitty pay, and they were developing their own storylines while they did it ripping along at 90mph, probably having a few cold ones. Now the wrestlers rely on a team to develop everything about their character, matches, promo's, etc... EVERYTHING.

The creativity side is dead.

I think Vince is starting to reap what he sowed by killing off the territories. The guys, today, have no where to get seasoned enough to be a legit main eventer. An indy show every now and then isn't gonna cut it.

When I started watching wrestling at age 8, Bruno Sammartino was the champ. Every two months a new heel, legit main eventer, would come from another territory and you'd wonder if this was gonna be the guy to finally knock off Bruno. Once the heel lost, he left for another territory. It kept things fresh. Today, you see the same guys every week.

Playboy · « **Reply #38 on:** October 07, 2009, 06:40:37 AM »

Quote from: Thin Lizzy on October 07, 2009, 05:37:24 AM

I think Vince is starting to reap what he sowed by killing off the territories. The guys, today, have no where to get seasoned enough to be a legit main eventer. An indy show every now and then isn't gonna cut it.

When I started watching wrestling at age 8, Bruno Sammartino was the champ. Every two months a new heel, legit main eventer, would come from another territory and you'd wonder if this was gonna be the guy to finally knock off Bruno. Once the heel lost, he left for another territory. It kept things fresh. Today, you see the same guys every week.

Agreed 100%. Also I don't like these quick title changes. Randy Orton loses the title, then wins it back, then loses it again & wins it back....bullshit. I hate it when they do that.

leonp1981 · « **Reply #39 on:** October 07, 2009, 06:43:25 AM »

Quote from: Playboy on October 07, 2009, 06:40:37 AM

Agreed 100%. Also I don't like these quick title changes. Randy Orton loses the title, then wins it back, then loses it again & wins it back....bullshit. I hate it when they do that.

Yeah, I'm not keen on that. I don't get why they gave him the title at Hell in a Cell. Just so they could do the 'Cena leaves Raw' stipulation? What's the point? I'm also not a big fan of the way Cena gets his ass handed to him for fifteen minutes, then suddenly hits three moves and wins.

cobra_4 · « **Reply #40 on:** October 07, 2009, 07:31:30 AM »

Quote from: leonp1981 on October 07, 2009, 06:43:25 AM

Yeah, I'm not keen on that. I don't get why they gave him the title at Hell in a Cell. Just so they could do the 'Cena leaves Raw' stipulation? What's the point? I'm also not a big fan of the way Cena gets his ass handed to him for fifteen minutes, then suddenly hits three moves and wins.

Sounds like Hogan

Playboy · « **Reply #41 on:** October 07, 2009, 07:36:44 AM »

They need to keep titles on people a bit longer. You lose interest quickly. How many times am I supposed to see Cena win? Or Orton?

cobra_4 · « **Reply #42 on:** October 07, 2009, 08:22:39 AM »

And its not just WWE, TNA is just as bad. There is no build up to the ppv's, the fued. The only match they have done any kind of building towards is Foley vs Abyss. Other than that they just have one PPV, then the next thursday announce the matches for the next one.

Montague · « **Reply #43 on:** October 07, 2009, 08:41:39 AM »

Quote from: The Showstoppa on October 07, 2009, 04:49:42 AM

Now the wrestlers rely on a team to develop everything about their character, matches, promo's, etc... EVERYTHING.

The creativity side is dead.

That’s also what happens when you pool writers from a soap opera set.

They need bookers who come from some kind of wrestling background.
Part of the problem with WCW was even the guy who owned it didn’t know jack-diddly shit about the business, and he appointed the same kind of people to run his company.

Russo & Ferrara may have been two exceptions – at least in WWF – but even then, it’s been said that the old man modified most of their ideas himself before green-lighting them. Once Russo was given absolute power down Atlanta, well…you know the rest.

Vince, Shane, Stephanie, etc. booked some good stuff post-Russo.
Then they hired that soap writer, who wasn’t terrible, but they still had good wrestlers who could do things like improvise, and had some responsibility & freedom as far as matches AND promos.
Ex.: “We need 12 minutes. When Howard puts the pencil in his mouth – you’ll have 1 min. to go home. The rest is up to you.”

Improvisation allowed guys to react to the fans as well as modify what may not be working to produce a better match.
It's fast becoming a lost art.

mass 04 · « **Reply #44 on:** October 07, 2009, 01:36:47 PM »

Flair has him on mic work but Hogan owns him everywhere else. He drew more money than Flair could dream of. I respect Flair but Hogan could draw all over the country and the world. The WWF tanked when Hogan went on sabbatical and Flair became champ and WCW was doing awful when he went back until Hogan came in. He was on of the biggest stars of the 80's not just in wrestling but entertainment in general. This isn't a knock on Flair because just WCW wasn't run by rocket scientists just my opinion.

Playboy · « **Reply #45 on:** October 08, 2009, 04:50:43 AM »

Quote from: mass 04 on October 07, 2009, 01:36:47 PM

Flair has him on mic work but Hogan owns him everywhere else. He drew more money than Flair could dream of. I respect Flair but Hogan could draw all over the country and the world. The WWF tanked when Hogan went on sabbatical and Flair became champ and WCW was doing awful when he went back until Hogan came in. He was on of the biggest stars of the 80's not just in wrestling but entertainment in general. This isn't a knock on Flair because just WCW wasn't run by rocket scientists just my opinion.

I agree. Its like Hogan said in his promo at bash at the beach when he formed the NWO..."I made the people up north rich (wwe), I made the owner (Vince McMahon) rich and when the name Hulk Hogan came to pass, Hulk Hogan got bigger then the sport of professional wrestling / sports entertainment. What happened after that? WCW beat WWE for 92 weeks straight in the ratings. Why? Because of Hogan.

cobra_4 · « **Reply #46 on:** October 08, 2009, 04:53:09 AM »

Quote from: Playboy on October 08, 2009, 04:50:43 AM

I agree. Its like Hogan said in his promo at bash at the beach when he formed the NWO..."I made the people up north rich (wwe), I made the owner (Vince McMahon) rich and when the name Hulk Hogan came to pass, Hulk Hogan got bigger then the sport of professional wrestling / sports entertainment. What happened after that? WCW beat WWE for 92 weeks straight in the ratings. Why? Because of Hogan.

You think Hogan is the reason WCW beat WWE for 92 weeks? He might have helped at the very beggining with the NWO but there was too many factors involved to give credit to just one person.

The Showstoppa · « **Reply #47 on:** October 08, 2009, 09:20:18 AM »

Quote from: mass 04 on October 07, 2009, 01:36:47 PM

Flair has him on mic work but Hogan owns him everywhere else. He drew more money than Flair could dream of. I respect Flair but Hogan could draw all over the country and the world. The WWF tanked when Hogan went on sabbatical and Flair became champ and WCW was doing awful when he went back until Hogan came in. He was on of the biggest stars of the 80's not just in wrestling but entertainment in general. This isn't a knock on Flair because just WCW wasn't run by rocket scientists just my opinion.

In-ring work would also go to Flair by at least as much as mic work. Not even debatable.

The only thing Hogan "owned" Flair at was working for a larger promotion. And to be fair, both the WWF and WCW were doing awful during the time right before Hogan signed with WCW. People forget that Hogan was around in WCW for awhile before the nWo angle and it wasn't like WCW was doing big business during that t period. It's well documented that Hogan saw the nWo angle taking off and shouldered his way into it. I give much more of the credit to the whole nWo angle than to any one wrestler in it.

Playboy · « **Reply #48 on:** October 08, 2009, 12:20:17 PM »

Quote from: cobra_4 on October 08, 2009, 04:53:09 AM

You think Hogan is the reason WCW beat WWE for 92 weeks? He might have helped at the very beggining with the NWO but there was too many factors involved to give credit to just one person.

Absolutely. It was a combination of the Hogan heel turn because it was fresh and something new to watch and the formation of the NWO Hall & Nash. Not to mention they had other top names like Randy Savage, Sid, Sting, Rick & Scott Steiner, The Road Warriors, etc. Hall & Nash deserve way more credit then people give them because they were excellent in the ring and good on the mic. Good heat.

Playboy · « **Reply #49 on:** October 09, 2009, 05:04:50 AM »

Quote from: cheftim on October 08, 2009, 05:51:53 PM

No doubt it was Hogan at the start. Then all eyes were on Goldberg.

Goldberg was the guy to beat Hogan and stop the NWO. Unfortunately Goldberg was very sloppy and very green in the ring and turned out to be only a flash in the pan.

Poll

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Author Topic: Hogan or Flair? (Read 9154 times)