Author Topic: Recent Self Defense Shootings Raise Questions about Law & Safety  (Read 895 times)

Soul Crusher

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4 recent self-defense shootings raise questions about law, safety
By Jeremy P. Kelley, Staff Writer
9:15 PM Sunday, October 11, 2009

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DAYTON — In a recent four-week period, four local residents who were threatened by armed individuals opened fire, shooting the people who had allegedly drawn or fired the weapons first. One incident left a would-be robber dead after a homeowner shot and killed him inside his home.
It’s a recent trend that leaves police torn between public safety concerns and law enforcement objectives.

“If your life is genuinely in danger ... I would expect people to fight for their lives or their family’s lives,” said Dayton police Lt. Patrick Welsh, a former prosecuting attorney. “But we also encourage people to think, ‘What can I do to avoid being placed in that situation in the first place?’ ”

None of the four people who fired in the Dayton cases face any criminal charges. Ohio’s Castle Doctrine Law, which went into effect last year, allows residents to defend their homes and occupied vehicles from invaders by any means necessary, including lethal force.

That law does have limits. Greene County Sheriff’s officials this week called Phil McCall of Beavercreek Twp. “extremely reckless” after he fired at a person rummaging through his wife’s empty car in their driveway in a residential neighborhood. Prosecutors are still weighing whether to file charges in that case.

A local gun rights advocate said firearms training and common sense are crucial so gun owners avoid those types of situations, but not when it comes to self-defense.

“I’m not a mean person. I’m not a vigilante. But I’m getting tired of the criminals being turned into the victims,” said Billy Perry, a range safety officer and concealed-carry instructor at Vandalia Range and Armory. “People ask, ‘Did they need to shoot him?’ Well, did he need to break into my house? This is not as hard as people are making it out to be.”

Four cases 
in four weeks

According to information from Dayton Police reports, all four shooters said they were threatened by another individual with a firearm, then shot the person in self-defense.

• Aug. 28: Alphonso Hughes shot Ramon Austin in the leg on Fountain Ave. after Austin allegedly pointed an assault rifle at Hughes’ family outside their home. Hughes also grazed a man in a house across the street.

• Aug. 31: Facing two armed burglars inside his Huffman Avenue home, Bradley Fugate shot and killed one of the men, Danny L. Baker.

• Sept. 19: Bert Watts Sr., 72, shot Phillip Anderson from his car on Brooklyn Ave. after Anderson approached Watts, pointing an AK-47 assault rifle at him. Anderson was charged with aggravated robbery.

• Sept. 23: People in a house on Huffman Avenue returned fire and hit Richard Forbus Jr. after he fired into the home. Forbus has been charged with felonious assault.

Dayton police said they do not keep statistics on how often a citizen claims self-defense when firing a weapon.

“We had a hectic August of gun violence in general,” Welsh said. “I understand people’s perception that this is a lot (of self-defense claims), but to say four in four weeks is unusual? I don’t know.”

“A gun is not a panacea”

More than 34,000 new Ohio concealed-carry licenses were issued in the first six months of 2009 — more than were issued in any full year except for 2004. Even with required training, some worry about a “Wild West” attitude toward defending homes or property.

“There can be a false sense of security that ‘I have a gun and I know how to use it,’ ” Welsh said. “But ask people who have firearms training — in a controlled environment, with no ticking clock, no stress, do you hit the bull’s-eye every time? No. So what makes you think in a high-stress situation that you’re going to be Wyatt Earp?

“Analyze the situation,” Welsh added. “In a car, can you lock the door, step on the gas and take off? At home, do you have a reasonable avenue of retreat? The first response should not be ‘I’m going to shoot my way out of this.’ A gun is not a panacea.”

Perry said many of the gun shop’s customers mention home invasions as a reason for buying a weapon. Welsh contends that’s a very small risk, saying in most cases where someone ends up firing, there are other factors behind the scenes — illegal behavior, associating with criminals, escalating problems with neighbors — that contribute to the situation.

He said the fatal shooting Aug. 31 on Huffman Avenue was the rare exception where the shooter truly was minding his own business. And even that homeowner, Fugate, didn’t celebrate his decision to fire.

“I ain’t no hero, and I’m broken up about it,” Fugate said the day after the shooting. “I did what I had to do.”

Perry, an ex-Marine, said it’s a thought-provoking issue, but he knows which side he falls on.

“I don’t know how I would react, but I do know that I’ve had a lot of training,” he said. “Just because you have (a gun) doesn’t mean you have to use it. But I would much rather have the gun and not need it than the other way around.”

Said Welsh, “If you’ve gone through CCW and you’re obeying the law, nobody is going to fault you for defending yourself (in a life-threatening situation). But look how many police are killed in the line of duty, and they’re well-armed and well-trained. It’s hard to say citizens should make that choice. People think it’s a simple decision, but it’s not.”


Contact this reporter at (937) 225-2278 or jkelley@DaytonDailyNews.com.
________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ___

I swear, i dont know who is the bigger menace to society sometimes, the cops or the criminals. 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Recent Self Defense Shootings Raise Questions about Law & Safety
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2009, 12:33:51 PM »
But look how many police are killed in the line of duty, and they’re well-armed and well-trained.


________________________ ___________________

Ok officer, than give up your gun and nightstick if your training is not working.  Cops suck most of the time. 

BTW - I disagree with him, most cops are not well trained and rarely go to the range or take shooting and self defense classes beyond what they learn in the academy.  We have a bunch in my class and they are nothing special without a gun and a radio for backup.   

shootfighter1

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Re: Recent Self Defense Shootings Raise Questions about Law & Safety
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2009, 12:57:53 PM »
I am for the castle law 110%.  We cannot allow criminals to run this country and must always err on the side of the victim if at all reasonable.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Recent Self Defense Shootings Raise Questions about Law & Safety
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2009, 12:59:08 PM »
I am for the castle law 110%.  We cannot allow criminals to run this country and must always err on the side of the victim if at all reasonable.

I love this idiots' statement about people avoiding the situation in the first place.  If they are in their home, what does this "law enforcement officer" suggest they do? 

MRDUMPLING

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Re: Recent Self Defense Shootings Raise Questions about Law & Safety
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2009, 01:31:41 PM »
I love this idiots' statement about people avoiding the situation in the first place.  If they are in their home, what does this "law enforcement officer" suggest they do? 

Assume the fetal position and play dead...that's how you deal with bears.  ;D

Ex Coelis

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Re: Recent Self Defense Shootings Raise Questions about Law & Safety
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2009, 01:40:10 PM »
an assault rifle strikes me as an odd thing for a civilian to own

Soul Crusher

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Re: Recent Self Defense Shootings Raise Questions about Law & Safety
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2009, 01:49:00 PM »
an assault rifle strikes me as an odd thing for a civilian to own

1.  The criminal had the AK
2.  What is an "assault rifle"
3.  Are you a cop?  We are citizens not civilians. 
   

MRDUMPLING

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Re: Recent Self Defense Shootings Raise Questions about Law & Safety
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2009, 02:00:54 PM »
an assault rifle strikes me as an odd thing for a civilian to own

Why?  Because it looks scary?  Citizens AKs and ARs do not have select fire etc. as the military does.  Totally different weapons.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Recent Self Defense Shootings Raise Questions about Law & Safety
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2009, 02:05:29 PM »
Why?  Because it looks scary?  Citizens AKs and ARs do not have select fire etc. as the military does.  Totally different weapons.

I have a .308 deer rifle that would do more damage than my .223. 

Ex Coelis

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Re: Recent Self Defense Shootings Raise Questions about Law & Safety
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2009, 02:19:25 PM »

240 is Back

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Re: Recent Self Defense Shootings Raise Questions about Law & Safety
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2009, 03:38:17 PM »
some new editor says it 'raises questions'

No, HE raises questions for a story.

OHIO has concealed carry laws, very friendly gun state

Eyeball Chambers

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Re: Recent Self Defense Shootings Raise Questions about Law & Safety
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2009, 05:18:51 PM »
This kid I grew up with almost got shot a few weeks ago when he broke into a home here in Ohio.

 ;D

Taught him a good lesson hopefully.
S

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Re: Recent Self Defense Shootings Raise Questions about Law & Safety
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2009, 06:07:23 PM »
This kid I grew up with almost got shot a few weeks ago when he broke into a home here in Ohio.

 ;D

Taught him a good lesson hopefully.


When I was 14, a kid I had gone to school with in Ohio since kindergarten shot and killed a kid who jumped him with a few of his friends.  He was 14 and carrying a 32 caliber.  I had just moved to FL a week earler, or I probably would have been with him.

He was 14 and ended up being in jail until he was 26.


Eyeball Chambers

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Re: Recent Self Defense Shootings Raise Questions about Law & Safety
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2009, 06:29:16 PM »

When I was 14, a kid I had gone to school with in Ohio since kindergarten shot and killed a kid who jumped him with a few of his friends.  He was 14 and carrying a 32 caliber.  I had just moved to FL a week earler, or I probably would have been with him.

He was 14 and ended up being in jail until he was 26.



Ewww damn....  :o

S