New IFBB Pro Rules :The posing routine will not be scored?

[Matterhorn]

Well said...

Thwe bottom line is that the "posing round" has never been scored as such, and gave the false impression that this was a round in which someone with the best posing could actually move up...

By eliminating the actual scoring of this round, we open it up to awarding PRIZE MONEY to someone that actually HAS the best routine/ most entertaining, etc...without compromising the judging.

The other objective was having the posedown count..if were going to have 2 day shows, then BOTH should count as such, and athletes should have a chance to catch up/ show that they have the better physique. The posing at a BB show is a showcase of the physique and we need to start expanding the thinking into more entertainment and putting out "shows" rather than competitions (which are for the most part, a giant snooze fest)...prejudging= competition...finals=entertainment

Trying to comprehend. Still a bit surprised about certain aspects, Bob.

Weren't there situations, when the posing round decided the outcome of a competition? I thought that the posing round could in fact move a competitor up by hiding weak/emphasizing strong bodyparts, thereby leaving a distinctive impression in the judges minds.

It often happens in competition that competitors start to "shine" when they start posing.

But maybe it depends on whether one looks at bb more as an art form (to be displayed) or sport...?

[Topskin69]

Well said...

Thwe bottom line is that the "posing round" has never been scored as such, and gave the false impression that this was a round in which someone with the best posing could actually move up...

By eliminating the actual scoring of this round, we open it up to awarding PRIZE MONEY to someone that actually HAS the best routine/ most entertaining, etc...without compromising the judging.

The other objective was having the posedown count..if were going to have 2 day shows, then BOTH should count as such, and athletes should have a chance to catch up/ show that they have the better physique. The posing at a BB show is a showcase of the physique and we need to start expanding the thinking into more entertainment and putting out "shows" rather than competitions (which are for the most part, a giant snooze fest)...prejudging= competition...finals=entertainment

*Sigh* As usual you miss the overall scope of things... One SHOULD be able to move up with great posing/presentation. It shouldn't count for everything, (I'm not saying that Ken Jones should hit the top 5 anytime soon), but yes one should be able to make up some ground with excellent presentation.

Also if all things are relatively equal between competitors, then the one with the better posing skills should get the edge.

Posing needs to be looked at much more stringently in the IFBB. How well one does their relaxed poses, quarter turns, transitions between poses, etc. The problem with paying a lump sum to the "best" poser, (which I admit is better then nothing), is that it will simply reward the same recycled popping-and-locking crap routines that we have seen from Melvin, Darrem, Kai, etc, at least 332432 times before.

Posing is one of the most subtle and demanding elements in Bodybuilding, and it should be a more important part of the criteria in competitions.

M!

[Mr Nobody]

*Sigh* As usual you miss the overall scope of things... One SHOULD be able to move up with great posing/presentation. It shouldn't count for everything, (I'm not saying that Ken Jones should hit the top 5 anytime soon), but yes one should be able to make up some ground with excellent presentation.

Also if all things are relatively equal between competitors, then the one with the better posing skills should get the edge.

Posing needs to be looked at much more stringently in the IFBB. How well one does their relaxed poses, quarter turns, transitions between poses, etc. The problem with paying a lump sum to the "best" poser, (which I admit is better then nothing), is that it will simply reward the same recycled popping-and-locking crap routines that we have seen from Melvin, Darrem, Kai, etc, at least 332432 times before.

Posing is one of the most subtle and demanding elements in Bodybuilding, and it should be a more important part of the criteria in competitions.

M!

X2 How could you leave posing out of the scoring?

[Chick]

Trying to comprehend. Still a bit surprised about certain aspects, Bob.

Weren't there situations, when the posing round decided the outcome of a competition? I thought that the posing round could in fact move a competitor up by hiding weak/emphasizing strong bodyparts, thereby leaving a distinctive impression in the judges minds.

It often happens in competition that competitors start to "shine" when they start posing.

But maybe it depends on whether one looks at bb more as an art form (to be displayed) or sport...?

The posing round has NEVER decided any pro show...and whenever it was close (i.e.- Shawn Ray/ Dorian) Shawn, the obviously better poser/ presenter by a mile....STILL lost.

At the end of the day, it's still a PHYSIQUE competition, and a competitor shouldnt win because he can pop and lock, do the splits, sumersault.....and he shouldn't lose as a result of it.

Entertainment is what sells tickets, and lack of it doesn't (i.e.- the last 44 years)

Basically, nothing will change...except spreading the money out to a bigger pool of hopefuls. They dont judge the posing round NOW

Every advantage, no disadvantage.

[Topskin69]

Then whats the point of even working on your posing? If it doesn't matter then everyone shouldn't bother with it. 

The reason that most posing routines have been boring Chick is that most Bodybuilders are Mediocre posers! No one has ever complained about the entertainment value of watching Lee Labrada, Bob Paris, Rusty Jeffers, etc, pose.

If there was more value attached to presentation, it would force bodybuilders to work harder at it, hire people to help them prep/choreograph their routines, etc. Of course the IFBB wouldn't want to actually try and uphold their standards... 

[io856]

just a thought...

Once there is clear distinction between the two couldn't the "competitive" side of the bodybuilding event and the "entertainment" side attract entirely different sponsorship arrangements...

[io856]

Then whats the point of even working on your posing? If it doesn't matter then everyone shouldn't bother with it. 

The reason that most posing routines have been boring Chick is that most Bodybuilders are Mediocre posers! No one has ever complained about the entertainment value of watching Lee Labrada, Bob Paris, Rusty Jeffers, etc, pose.

If there was more value attached to presentation, it would force bodybuilders to work harder at it, hire people to help them prep/choreograph their routines, etc. Of course the IFBB wouldn't want to actually try and uphold their standards... 

You just confirmed Bob's point

 

but you must also remember that it a PHYSIQUE contest... the display thereof in respect to "wow factor" is irrelevant

[io856]

what would leave you more entertained at the night show...?

seeing 4-5 great posing routines (those gifted in that department) or 10-12 mediocre ones and the good ones?

[Matterhorn]

The posing round has NEVER decided any pro show...and whenever it was close (i.e.- Shawn Ray/ Dorian) Shawn, the obviously better poser/ presenter by a mile....STILL lost.

At the end of the day, it's still a PHYSIQUE competition, and a competitor shouldnt win because he can pop and lock, do the splits, sumersault.....and he shouldn't lose as a result of it.

Entertainment is what sells tickets, and lack of it doesn't (i.e.- the last 44 years)

Basically, nothing will change...except spreading the money out to a bigger pool of hopefuls. They dont judge the posing round NOW

Every advantage, no disadvantage.

So be it.

Thinking about it, are the best posers really the most entertaining athletes?

The most important thing for all these pros to market themselves seems to be personality. On and off the stage.

Take Kamali: he was entertaining not primarily because he was a great poser, but because he polarized the audience with his ... personality.

You can have size and/or posing skills, but they are worth nothing with a middle-of-a-donut personality. How else could one explain the success of a meat and potatoes athlete like Branch Warren. He is not overly entertaining on stage, but he genuinely represents something that allows him to grow his fan base. Without somersaults.

Keep our sport moving.

cheers.

[Topskin69]

You just confirmed Bob's point

 

but you must also remember that it a PHYSIQUE contest... the display thereof in respect to "wow factor" is irrelevant

How do you figure...most bodybuilders are mediocre posers, because there is no incentive for them to be any better at it. If their presentation had an effect on their placing, then you can bet that everyone would be working on bettering their performances. This of course would lead to more entertaining routines, and a more enjoyable exp, at a show.

[Chick]

Then whats the point of even working on your posing? If it doesn't matter then everyone shouldn't bother with it. 

The reason that most posing routines have been boring Chick is that most Bodybuilders are Mediocre posers! No one has ever complained about the entertainment value of watching Lee Labrada, Bob Paris, Rusty Jeffers, etc, pose.

If there was more value attached to presentation, it would force bodybuilders to work harder at it, hire people to help them prep/choreograph their routines, etc. Of course the IFBB wouldn't want to actually try and uphold their standards... 

If there is a $10,000 award to go with it, then there is EVERY reason to work on your routine...as it stands NOW...there is no reason to work on it other than pride, thus the change.

Most guys are mediocre posers....you know why?  No incentive. The BBers put the stock into what matters traditionally....the physique.

You're making my point...more value=more money on the line.  Making a posing routine worth MORE could reward someone with an outstanding routine, but sub-par physique..not exactly what the BB fans would be looking for. I've seen Ken Jones with some very entertaining routines, very well choreographed and thought out...should he have won the posing round, catapulting him into the top 5?

[Topskin69]

If there is a $10,000 award to go with it, then there is EVERY reason to work on your routine...as it stands NOW...there is no reason to work on it other than pride, thus the change.

Most guys are mediocre posers....you know why?  No incentive. The BBers put the stock into what matters traditionally....the physique.

You're making my point...more value=more money on the line.  Making a posing routine worth MORE could reward someone with an outstanding routine, but sub-par physique..not exactly what the BB fans would be looking for. I've seen Ken Jones with some very entertaining routines, very well choreographed and thought out...should he have won the posing round, catapulting him into the top 5?

The problem with just forking over 10grand to the best poser is that they will simply reward the same people again and again.

Example: I attended the 08 Ironman, and they had a Best Poser award....and it went to King Kamli....all he did that night was a half-ass stripper routine that ended with him taking of his posing trunks, only to find another pair of trunks underneath.... Yawn... now for those of us actually paying attention that night... we all would have told you that Rusty Jeffers was the best poser hands down.

I fear that it will only reward the same popping and locking routines that we have seen 234323 times before. The first time we saw Melvin gyrate to some slow R&B it was entertaining...it quickly grew old..yet he still does the same basic routine and he keeps getting praised for it. You can also add Darrem to this list...

That said...no I don't think Ken Jones should by any means crack a top 5...but if he was the best poser that night...then I have no problem with him climbing up a couple of spots... of course when you go from 16th to 14th...what are we really worried about?

I'm not saying that posing should carry as much weight as the Muscularity, or Symmetry rounds, but it should count for something.

M!

[kyomu]

Great player. Terrible human being.

Doc, thats very profund.

[kyomu]

Then  IS IT A OBLIGATION FOR THEM TO DO THE POSING ROUTINE?

[DroppingPlates]

The problem with just forking over 10grand to the best poser is that they will simply reward the same people again and again.

Example: I attended the 08 Ironman, and they had a Best Poser award....and it went to King Kamli....all he did that night was a half-ass stripper routine that ended with him taking of his posing trunks, only to find another pair of trunks underneath.... Yawn... now for those of us actually paying attention that night... we all would have told you that Rusty Jeffers was the best poser hands down.

I fear that it will only reward the same popping and locking routines that we have seen 234323 times before. The first time we saw Melvin gyrate to some slow R&B it was entertaining...it quickly grew old..yet he still does the same basic routine and he keeps getting praised for it. You can also add Darrem to this list...

That said...no I don't think Ken Jones should by any means crack a top 5...but if he was the best poser that night...then I have no problem with him climbing up a couple of spots... of course when you go from 16th to 14th...what are we really worried about?

I'm not saying that posing should carry as much weight as the Muscularity, or Symmetry rounds, but it should count for something.

M!

Agree. I think a good presentation, and that doesn't have to be a fancy stripper, robot, breakdancer, clown or whatever act, should be a integral part of presenting a physique. As a result of this change only 'show stoppa's' like Kai, Melvin or Darrem make a serious chance, which will result in more predictable placings (read: boring shows). Bodybuilding is about about the complete package & presentation, not the best dancer.

Whats the next step? A price for the best conditioning, most mass (I'm not talking about the most muscular pose award), darkest tan, most beautiful face?

[MB]

The ability to pose will still be rewarded because a good poser can better present their physique in the mandatories.  Judging free posing routines is pointless because the competitors have already been thoroughly compared with 8 mandatory poses and quarter turns.  No one is winning on a 3/4 twisting back shot they pull off Saturday night that moves them up 5 spots.  I do agree that if there is a best poser award given out, let all types of posing be rewarded, not just Melvin's same routine. 

[Neptuno]

In amateur IFBB, posing routine YES is a part of the score, 33% exactly and maybe (posing routing) is 50-50 between physique and entertaiment perfomance. Is this sytem better o worst??? I donīt know but from a part to now routines are considerably better.

Chick please, can you tell me waht do you think about the careless of IFBB PRO in Europe. Maybe the rules are made to do events on USA/Canada and itīs considerably more expensive here, in Europe. Would be this the fact to help to others world/european asociations  (Wabba, Nabba, NAC etc...) exist here.

[Chick]

The problem with just forking over 10grand to the best poser is that they will simply reward the same people again and again.

Example: I attended the 08 Ironman, and they had a Best Poser award....and it went to King Kamli....all he did that night was a half-ass stripper routine that ended with him taking of his posing trunks, only to find another pair of trunks underneath.... Yawn... now for those of us actually paying attention that night... we all would have told you that Rusty Jeffers was the best poser hands down.


And therin lies the problem with scoring the "posing routine"...whos to say what is better and how does a judge compare a KK rountine to RJ?  It's like trying to compare Frank Sinatra to 50 Cent...thus the proposal to eliminate scoring of it....

I fear that it will only reward the same popping and locking routines that we have seen 234323 times before. The first time we saw Melvin gyrate to some slow R&B it was entertaining...it quickly grew old..yet he still does the same basic routine and he keeps getting praised for it. You can also add Darrem to this list...


If the same people put forth the effort, then so be it...I believe putting money on the line will inspire them to be creative and make an efort to put 10K in their pocket, especially for those climbing the ladder or not the best on stage...

That said...no I don't think Ken Jones should by any means crack a top 5...but if he was the best poser that night...then I have no problem with him climbing up a couple of spots... of course when you go from 16th to 14th...what are we really worried about?


And if you understood the judging system that was in place...he wouldn't  just "climb a couple of spots", he could actually place in the top 5 ahead of physiques obviously better than his...


I'm not saying that posing should carry as much weight as the Muscularity, or Symmetry rounds, but it should count for something.

And it does...representing and displaying your physique. Should Dorian have ever won a posing round?  How about Ronnie?

M!

[Mr Nobody]

Then why not just drop the night show and be done with it? The answer is $ all for the public correct?

[Chick]

Then why not just drop the night show and be done with it? The answer is $ all for the public correct?

Expo's and supp companys, time constraints

[medici]

What has a supp company got to do with Official IFBB Judging???

[Chick]

What has a supp company got to do with Official IFBB Judging???

Nothing

[medici]

Nothing

                    Then Drop the night show.

[Chick]

I dont think you get it.

Supp companies sponsor BB events, and in turn, get to display their company at the expo's, which people attend...if there isnt enough bang for the buck, then the supp companies wont continue to sponsor shows...

That said, sometimes (most of the time) there are multiple competitions at a show..there simply isnt enough time to shove everything into one day

[medici]

Then do it over two days.