Author Topic: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?  (Read 8919 times)

Straw Man

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2009, 11:16:12 AM »
right i guess he made up intel from other countries too huh? face it bro there was conflicting intel, im not arguing which was right or which was wrong. The fact stands though you condemn him for ignoring it in one situation and following it in another...hind sights 20/20 i guess  ;)

give me some examples

Are you talking about the yellow cake from guy or are you talking about the Downing Street memo's where the British Intelligence was saying that the Bush Admin was trying to fit the intelligence around the already predertmined goal to invade Iraq.

Maybe you're referring to the Czech intelligence officials who informed their European counterparts that there is no credible evidence of the alleged meeting between Sept. 11 hijacker Mohammed Atta and an Iraqi intelligence officer (the one the Cheney still refers to even though it's been totally refuted)

Maybe you're referring to the "intel" from Rumsfelds Strategic Support Branch that took raw data and molded into fake intel to fit the goal of invading Iraq

Maybe you're referring to Rumsfeld Office of Strategic Influence which simply made up propaganda to support the administrations goal of invading Iraq.

240 is Back

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2009, 12:38:43 PM »
ayers has no business there - he's an admitted terrorist.  i'm sure it was "dude, stop talking!' kind of interview... but still... when a guy admits setting off bombs, you don't let him near you anymore.

On the other hand, they are gonna take heat for the list - but they are offering more info than any other previous admin did?  Some credit due there for teh transparency, even if the list owns them and make them look bad.

"No previous administration has released such a list, though the information out so far is incomplete"

headhuntersix

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2009, 12:40:41 PM »
They stated its not the same ayers or wright...I'm sure that can be easily proven....if not barry is fucked!!!!
L

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2009, 12:42:26 PM »
They stated its not the same ayers or wright...I'm sure that can be easily proven....if not barry is fucked!!!!

ah gotcha.  he'd be insane to have them visit him.  Hopefully rush won't "satire" it, and report it as news they were visitors... then joke he was "just kidding" later.

I understand not every guest can be announced for obvious reasons, but a list like this is good and keep an admin semi-honest.  I hope the R that wins in 2012 does the same.

tonymctones

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2009, 03:33:50 PM »
give me some examples

Are you talking about the yellow cake from guy or are you talking about the Downing Street memo's where the British Intelligence was saying that the Bush Admin was trying to fit the intelligence around the already predertmined goal to invade Iraq.

Maybe you're referring to the Czech intelligence officials who informed their European counterparts that there is no credible evidence of the alleged meeting between Sept. 11 hijacker Mohammed Atta and an Iraqi intelligence officer (the one the Cheney still refers to even though it's been totally refuted)

Maybe you're referring to the "intel" from Rumsfelds Strategic Support Branch that took raw data and molded into fake intel to fit the goal of invading Iraq

Maybe you're referring to Rumsfeld Office of Strategic Influence which simply made up propaganda to support the administrations goal of invading Iraq.
dude weve had this argument as many times as weve had the abortion or parental rights arguments. Face it bro there was conflicting intel whether it was credible or not is pretty clear, but to say there wasnt is idiotic.

The ChemistV2

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2009, 03:36:10 PM »
How did Clinton force banks to lower their lending standards.  If you're talking about the Community Reinvestment Act (not sure that you are) those loans have actually performed quite well in comparison to subprime/Alt-A stuff.  

The reason we have a problem in the credit markets is because we deregulated the commodities market (thanks to Clinton and some key Repubs) and allowed banks to get involved the securities biz.  That's caused 95% of the problem

Bush's only culpability in the subprime crisis was not doing something about it early on, but then he had his venerated Fed Chairman who thought everything was peachy and Bush is not exactly a deep thinker

The undeniable fact is that Bush came into office with a surplus and left office with 2 wars (not even included in the regular budget) which continue to be black holes of out tax dollars.   Obama has to live with the horrible choices made by the Bush Administration while also having to try to do something to address the worst financial crisis in our country and also trying to achieve some of the goals of his own party.  
From Forbes magazine:
As we try to shake off the financial crisis, here's a bright idea. Take a law that has led to the writing of an enormous amount of bad mortgages and expand it. Then take enforcement away from bank examiners and give it to housing activists.

Sound like a poisonous cocktail? Well, it is what the Obama administration and Democrats are currently stirring up on Capitol Hill.
The White House and Congress want to expand a 30-year-old law--the Community Reinvestment Act--that helped to fuel the mortgage meltdown. What the CRA does, in effect, is compel banks to seek the permission of community activists to get regulatory approval for bank expansions and mergers. Often this means striking a deal with activist groups such as ACORN or unions like the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) and agreeing to allocate credit to poor and minority areas that are underserved.

In short, the CRA encourages banks to make loans they would not ordinarily make. What's more, these agreements often require that banks offer no-money-down mortgages and remove caps on how much debt a borrower can take on. All of this is done in the name of "financial democracy."
Liberals pooh-pooh the idea that a 30-year-old law could have contributed to the current subprime crisis and credit crunch. But what they ignore is the massive expansion of CRA-commitments forced on banks in the run-up to the 2008 financial crisis.
According to the National Community Reinvestment Coalition, in the first 20 years of the act, up to 1997, commitments totaled approximately $200 billion. But from 1997 to 2007, commitments exploded to more than $4.2 trillion. (Keep in mind this is more than four times the size of the current health bill being debated in Congress.) The burdens on individual banks can be enormous. Washington Mutual, for example, pledged $1 trillion in mortgages to those with credit histories that "fall outside typical credit, income or debt constraints," and was awarded the 2003 CRA Community Impact Award for its Community Access program. Four years later it was taken over by the Office of Thrift Supervision. In 2004 Bank of America ( BAC - news - people ) agreed to provide $750 billion in CRA loans to applicants with poor credit who had previous difficulty obtaining a mortgage. By 2008 Bank of America was reporting that CRA loans represented only 7% of its portfolio but 29% of its losses. Numerous large banks are now in the middle of enormous CRA commitments. In 2004 J.P. Morgan Chase ( JPM - news - people ) agreed to provide $800 billion of such loans over the course of 10 years.



The ChemistV2

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2009, 03:37:55 PM »
For all the talk of unsold condos in Miami and foreclosed McMansions in California, the epicenters of the mortgage crisis are inner-city urban areas--precisely those areas where the CRA was most applicable. As the Boston Federal Reserve put it in a massive 2008 study, "In the current housing crisis foreclosures are highly concentrated in [urban] minority neighborhoods." The study found that borrowers in these areas were seven times more likely to be foreclosed on than the general population. Analysis by the Pew Research Center and another by The New York Times found that mortgage holders in these areas had foreclosure rates four times higher than the national average.

In short, the CRA is compelling banks to make trillions in loans to individuals who have poor credit and who often can't or won't make their payments.

Now comes Rep. Eddie Bernice Johnson, D-Texas, and 50 other co-sponsors (all Democrats) of H.R. 1479 the "Community Reinvestment Modernization Act of 2009," who want to expand the CRA to include not just banks but also credit unions, insurance companies and mortgage lenders. Congressman Barney Frank, chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, has supported the idea in the past. The SEIU and ACORN, along with a host of other activist groups, are also behind the effort.

President Obama has been a staunch supporter of the CRA throughout his public life. And his recently announced financial reforms would make the law even more onerous and guarantee an explosion in irresponsible lending. Obama wants to take enforcement of the CRA away from the Federal Reserve, the FDIC and other financial regulators who at least try to weigh bank safety and soundness when enforcing the law, and turn it over to a newly created Consumer Financial Protection Agency (CFPA). This agency's core concerns would not be safety and soundness but, in the words of the Obama administration, "promoting access to financial services," which is really code for forcing banks to lend to those who would not ordinarily qualify. Compliance would no longer be done by bank examiners but by what the administration calls "a group of examiners specially trained and certified in community development" (otherwise called community activists). The administration says, in its literature about the reforms, that "rigorous application of the Community Reinvestment should be a core function of the CFPA."

For good measure, Obama's plan also calls for the CFPA to work closely with the Department of Justice to combat perceived discrimination in lending.

Obama's battle against banks has a long history. In 1994, freshly out of Harvard Law School, he joined two other attorneys in filing a lawsuit against Citibank, the giant mortgage lender. In Selma S. Buycks-Roberson v. Citibank, the plaintiffs claimed that although they had ostensibly been denied home loans "because of delinquent credit obligations and adverse credit," the real culprit was institutional racism. The suit alleged that Citibank had violated the Equal Credit Opportunity Act, the Fair Housing Act and, for good measure, the 13th Constitutional Amendment, which abolished slavery. The bank denied the charge, but after four years of legal wrangling and mounting legal bills, elected to settle. According to court documents, the three plaintiffs received a total of $60,000. Their lawyers received $950,000.

The CRA is not about community development; it is, essentially, affirmative action in lending. Trillions in loans are now to be made not on the basis of whether they can be paid back but to meet CRA goals. This is precisely what we need to get away from. Drinking this potent cocktail would be dangerous to our financial health.


The ChemistV2

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2009, 03:43:21 PM »
So basically, as you can see from the article above, The Community re-investment act did heavily contribute to the meltdown,,,and the genius Obama wants to expand it even more.   Him and his lackeys don't have a clue.

Straw Man

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2009, 09:23:39 PM »
From Forbes magazine:
As we try to shake off the financial crisis, here's a bright idea. Take a law that has led to the writing of an enormous amount of bad mortgages and expand it. Then take enforcement away from bank examiners and give it to housing activists.

Sound like a poisonous cocktail? Well, it is what the Obama administration and Democrats are currently stirring up on Capitol Hill.
The White House and Congress want to expand a 30-year-old law--the Community Reinvestment Act--that helped to fuel the mortgage meltdown. What the CRA does, in effect, is compel banks to seek the permission of community activists to get regulatory approval for bank expansions and mergers. Often this means striking a deal with activist groups such as ACORN or unions like the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) and agreeing to allocate credit to poor and minority areas that are underserved.

In short, the CRA encourages banks to make loans they would not ordinarily make. What's more, these agreements often require that banks offer no-money-down mortgages and remove caps on how much debt a borrower can take on. All of this is done in the name of "financial democracy."
Liberals pooh-pooh the idea that a 30-year-old law could have contributed to the current subprime crisis and credit crunch. But what they ignore is the massive expansion of CRA-commitments forced on banks in the run-up to the 2008 financial crisis.
According to the National Community Reinvestment Coalition, in the first 20 years of the act, up to 1997, commitments totaled approximately $200 billion. But from 1997 to 2007, commitments exploded to more than $4.2 trillion. (Keep in mind this is more than four times the size of the current health bill being debated in Congress.) The burdens on individual banks can be enormous. Washington Mutual, for example, pledged $1 trillion in mortgages to those with credit histories that "fall outside typical credit, income or debt constraints," and was awarded the 2003 CRA Community Impact Award for its Community Access program. Four years later it was taken over by the Office of Thrift Supervision. In 2004 Bank of America ( BAC - news - people ) agreed to provide $750 billion in CRA loans to applicants with poor credit who had previous difficulty obtaining a mortgage. By 2008 Bank of America was reporting that CRA loans represented only 7% of its portfolio but 29% of its losses. Numerous large banks are now in the middle of enormous CRA commitments. In 2004 J.P. Morgan Chase ( JPM - news - people ) agreed to provide $800 billion of such loans over the course of 10 years.

Find me some references for those stats on CRA loans.

I know something about this program and those loans were made within traditional underwriting guidelines (i.e. - they were full documentation, reasonable debt ratios, only for owner occuppied properties etc...)

Here's a link to a study on CRA loans, default ratios, etc...:  http://college.unc.edu/features/october2008/article.2008-10-14.9010133371/

The majority of the problem in the mortgage industrty were the Stated Income, No Doc, No Ratio loans and the securities that were created by these pools of loans.   None of these loans were CRA. 

Straw Man

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2009, 09:26:29 PM »
dude weve had this argument as many times as weve had the abortion or parental rights arguments. Face it bro there was conflicting intel whether it was credible or not is pretty clear, but to say there wasnt is idiotic.

I gave you examples of all the bogus or flawed intel

why don't you show me some examples to support your premise

tonymctones

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2009, 12:40:25 AM »
I gave you examples of all the bogus or flawed intel

why don't you show me some examples to support your premise
again the issue isnt whether the intel was credible or not i think its clear where the jury stands at that point...the point is there was conflicting intel...

Straw Man

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2009, 07:02:49 AM »
again the issue isnt whether the intel was credible or not i think its clear where the jury stands at that point...the point is there was conflicting intel...

really - according to the Bush Admin there was no conflict at all and there was virtually no dissenting info

I remember the weeks leading up to the invasion of Iraq when all the weapon investigators were saying Saddam didn't have WMD's yet Bush insisted that he not only had them but an attack was imminent.

It was only after the invasion did the public learn how much dissenting info their actually was regarding Iraq's culpability in the attacks on 911 and then further along how much the Bush Admin was just making up the Intel or fitting the Intel to fit the goal of invading Iraq.

headhuntersix

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2009, 08:29:12 AM »
The weapons investigators can't be trusted...the UN has its own agenda and that that doesn't include the US. The UN has failed in Iran. Saddam did everything in his power leading up to the invasion to make it look like he had WMD's...then when it became clear that Bush was'nt a paper tiger and was going to crush him..he allowed the inspectors more access...nobody believed anybody at that point. Everybody on both sides thought he had WMDs.
L

Straw Man

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2009, 08:37:09 AM »
The weapons investigators can't be trusted...the UN has its own agenda and that that doesn't include the US. The UN has failed in Iran. Saddam did everything in his power leading up to the invasion to make it look like he had WMD's...then when it became clear that Bush was'nt a paper tiger and was going to crush him..he allowed the inspectors more access...nobody believed anybody at that point. Everybody on both sides thought he had WMDs.

News Flash - the weapons investigators were on the ground in Iraq for years and were correct

Additionally, Saddam and many members of his administration denied he had WMD's

The only people saying he did were guys like that con man Chalabi (aka Curve Ball) and he was paid handsomely to do so (and or course Rummy who was just making up his own shit out of thin air).   Colin Powell got sucked into being their shill and greatly damaged his own credibility.

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2009, 09:50:37 AM »
The weapons investigators can't be trusted...the UN has its own agenda and that that doesn't include the US. The UN has failed in Iran. Saddam did everything in his power leading up to the invasion to make it look like he had WMD's...then when it became clear that Bush was'nt a paper tiger and was going to crush him..he allowed the inspectors more access...nobody believed anybody at that point. Everybody on both sides thought he had WMDs.

So what if he fucking did?   He wasn't gonna use them.

tonymctones

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2009, 02:09:59 PM »
really - according to the Bush Admin there was no conflict at all and there was virtually no dissenting info

I remember the weeks leading up to the invasion of Iraq when all the weapon investigators were saying Saddam didn't have WMD's yet Bush insisted that he not only had them but an attack was imminent.

It was only after the invasion did the public learn how much dissenting info their actually was regarding Iraq's culpability in the attacks on 911 and then further along how much the Bush Admin was just making up the Intel or fitting the Intel to fit the goal of invading Iraq.
what does this have to do with my point brain child?

there was conflicting intel whether the intel was accurate is another story...

you cannot dispute the fact that there was conflicting intel...

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2009, 04:50:12 PM »
what does this have to do with my point brain child?

there was conflicting intel whether the intel was accurate is another story...

you cannot dispute the fact that there was conflicting intel...

wellllllllllllllllllllll ll

How much validity you assign to the intel is another thing.

UN got their inspection and didn't find jack.

So was there 50% intel saying YES, he had WMD, and 50% intel saying NO?

I doubt it.  Probably 5% of handpicked sources saying he had WMD, and 95% agreeing with the UN - that he didn't have them.

Cheney met with the oil company execs before 911 to divy up the iraqi oil fields - do you deny this tony?

tonymctones

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2009, 05:02:26 PM »
wellllllllllllllllllllllll

How much validity you assign to the intel is another thing.

UN got their inspection and didn't find jack.

So was there 50% intel saying YES, he had WMD, and 50% intel saying NO?

I doubt it.  Probably 5% of handpicked sources saying he had WMD, and 95% agreeing with the UN - that he didn't have them.

Cheney met with the oil company execs before 911 to divy up the iraqi oil fields - do you deny this tony?
again this has nothing to do with my point 240, you guys keep wanting to go on tangents...

Fact there was conflicting intel on wmd and iraq as well as terrorist activities in iraq, youve agreed to this.

Fact you condemn bush for ignoring intel about 9/11 and then condemn him for following intel on Iraq...very 20/20 of you  ;)

My point is not whether there was alternative motives or whether or not the intel was correct or not it is that you condemn him for not following intel in one instance and condemn him for following it in another.

Honestly 240 how probable would you have said a 9/11 style attack was prior to 9/11?

there are tons of intel on terrorist attacks all over the world, hind sight is 20/20 240 and straw and it biases you.


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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2009, 05:05:48 PM »
yeah, but I think we're all failing to see the bigger picture.

Was intel picked and chosen based upon the ability to set up bases on pipeline routes?

If you stop 911, there's no afghan bases now.
If you don't stop Saddam, no bases there.

Plus, the 911 intel simply required the FBI to go interview the guys and see if they had flight plans that day.  Easy and cheap. 

I'm under the belief - like many americans - that Bush knew and just didn't stop it.  So of course that will skew my view.  you may be under another impression.

tonymctones

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2009, 05:22:17 PM »
yeah, but I think we're all failing to see the bigger picture.

Was intel picked and chosen based upon the ability to set up bases on pipeline routes?

If you stop 911, there's no afghan bases now.
If you don't stop Saddam, no bases there.

Plus, the 911 intel simply required the FBI to go interview the guys and see if they had flight plans that day.  Easy and cheap. 

I'm under the belief - like many americans - that Bush knew and just didn't stop it.  So of course that will skew my view.  you may be under another impression.
dude how many pieces of intel do you think these guys get? seriously yes its laid out in black and white but to think it was really that black in white again is 20/20 bias.

I think Iraq, Iran, or Pakistan would have needed to be dealt with after invading afghanistan. You really think us just going in there with terrorist being able to run across the border to pakistan or Iran was going to do much?

the points you bring up are valid, but again they dont address my point they are tangents

Fact: there was conflicting intel as to Iraq and wmd and terrorism
Fact: you guys condemn bush for ignoring intel in one instance yet condemn him for following it in another.

Its really as simple as that

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2009, 05:28:20 PM »
wellllllllllllllllllllllll

How much validity you assign to the intel is another thing.

UN got their inspection and didn't find jack.

So was there 50% intel saying YES, he had WMD, and 50% intel saying NO?

I doubt it.  Probably 5% of handpicked sources saying he had WMD, and 95% agreeing with the UN - that he didn't have them.

Cheney met with the oil company execs before 911 to divy up the iraqi oil fields - do you deny this tony?


I doubt it was 50/50, but there was conflict.  We know for certain that at some point in time he had WMD's - Chemical Ali made sure the world knew about that.  As for an imminent threat, not likely.

I remember reading a book by a government analyst where one of his duties was to watch Iraqi satellite footage.  He would see the atrocities committed by Saddam and he spoke about the sickening feeling of being powerless to help people.  Analysts, being human, it wouldn't surprise me that they may have had a bias in their briefings to Bush, I don't know.  Bush may have been aware of this footage and thought of himself as a heroic "saviour", but again, I don't know.  But I certainly think there was conflicting intel.

As for Cheney's Energy Task Force, no I think it's just CT, but I can see how you would feel otherwise.

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2009, 05:44:17 PM »
in 30 or 40 years, we'll have our answers when that 911 memo form august is released.  we'll see the details that Bush blacked out.  We might all be old men saying "Dude, really?"

By then it'll just be boring history to a bunch of punk kids.

Straw Man

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2009, 06:27:49 PM »
what does this have to do with my point brain child?

there was conflicting intel whether the intel was accurate is another story...

you cannot dispute the fact that there was conflicting intel...

your point was the Weapon Inspectors couldn't be trusted (that's the post to which I was responding).

My point was that they could be trusted and they were in fact correct that Hussein had no weapons.

Does anyone here remember we had inspectors on the ground who couldn't find shit yet at the same time somehow Bush knew they not only had WMD's but were about to "launch" and we literally couldn't wait one more day.   We had that guy in a box with inspectors crawling all over his country yet somehow he was managing not only to hide everything but also somehow was launch ready as well

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2009, 06:33:23 PM »
It is kind of funny that people would actually state that the Weapons Inspectors couldn't be trusted and yet they were EXACTLY FUCKING RIGHT!

Not, kind of right, not sort of right, but dead on the money. 

Yet, "Bush" and company all had intel saying there was WMD's there.

This has had to be the single most MONSTER FUCK UP in American intelligence history. 

So based on the results who ended up being more trust worthy in this case?  The UN or BUSH?

I wish i could make an eye roll that covered the whole page.

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Re: Did Bill Ayeres, Rev. Wright, & George Soros visit the White House?
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2009, 06:45:27 PM »

Does anyone here remember we had inspectors on the ground who couldn't find shit yet at the same time somehow Bush knew they not only had WMD's but were about to "launch" and we literally couldn't wait one more day.   We had that guy in a box with inspectors crawling all over his country yet somehow he was managing not only to hide everything but also somehow was launch ready as well


I remember it well, Straw.  But, it wasn't nearly as cut and dry as your making it out now.  The weapons inspectors were endlessly crying about how their efforts were being stymied.  Always qualifying answers with stuff like, "....but we were not allowed in this facility." and, "....but they didn't let us look over here.".

It's easy to look back now and try and say that the inspectors were giving a definitive yea or nay, but there were always questions surrounding the inspections.