Author Topic: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency  (Read 1399 times)

Soul Crusher

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Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« on: November 18, 2009, 09:24:58 AM »
Is America at war, or not?

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Posted: November 16, 2009
6:50 pm Eastern

© 2009 

________________________ ________________________ _____

Are we at war – or not?

For if we are at war, why is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed headed for trial in federal court in the Southern District of New York? Why is he entitled to a presumption of innocence and all of the constitutional protections of a U.S. citizen?

Is it possible we have done an injustice to this man by keeping him locked up all these years without trial? For that is what this trial implies – that he may not be guilty.

And if we must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that KSM was complicit in mass murder, by what right do we send Predators and Special Forces to kill his al-Qaida comrades wherever we find them? For none of them has been granted a fair trial.

When the Justice Department sets up a task force to wage war on a crime organization like the Mafia or MS-13, no U.S. official has a right to shoot Mafia or gang members on sight. No one has a right to bomb their homes. No one has a right to regard the possible death of their wives and children in an attack as acceptable collateral damage.

Yet that is what we do to al-Qaida, to which KSM belongs.

We conduct those strikes in good conscience because we believe we are at war. But if we are at war, what is KSM doing in a U.S. court?

Minoru Genda, who planned the attack on Pearl Harbor, a naval base on U.S. soil, when America was at peace, and killed nearly as many Americans as the Sept. 11 hijackers, was not brought here for trial. He was an enemy combatant under the Geneva Conventions and treated as such.

When Maj. Andre, the British spy and collaborator of Benedict Arnold, was captured, he got a military tribunal, after which he was hanged. When Gen. Andrew Jackson captured two British subjects in Spanish Florida aiding renegade Indians, Jackson had both tried and hanged on the spot.

Enemy soldiers who commit atrocities are not sent to the United States for trial. Under the Geneva Conventions, soldiers who commit atrocities are shot when caught.

When and where did Khalid Sheikh Mohammed acquire his right to a trial by a jury of his peers in a U.S. court?

When John Wilkes Booth shot Abraham Lincoln, alleged collaborators like Mary Surratt were tried before a military tribunal and hanged at Fort McNair. When eight German saboteurs were caught in 1942 after being put ashore by U-boat, they were tried in secret before a military commission and executed, with the approval of the Supreme Court. What makes KSM special?

Is the Obama administration aware of what it is risking by not turning KSM over to a military tribunal in Guantanamo?

How does Justice handle a defense demand for a change of venue, far from lower Manhattan, where the jury pool was most deeply traumatized by Sept. 11? Would not KSM and his co-defendants, if a change of venue is denied, have a powerful argument for overturning any conviction on appeal?

Were not KSM's Miranda rights impinged when he was not only not told he could have a lawyer on capture, but told that his family would be killed and he would be waterboarded if he refused to talk?

And if all the evidence against the five defendants comes from other than their own testimony under duress, do not their lawyers have a right to know when, where, how and from whom Justice got the evidence to prosecute them? Does KSM have the right to confront all witnesses against him, even if they are al-Qaida turncoats or U.S. spies still transmitting information to U.S. intelligence?

There have been reports that in the trials of those convicted in the first World Trade Center bombing, sources and methods were compromised, weakening our security for the second attack on Sept. 11.

If the trial is held in lower Manhattan, how much security will be needed to protect against a car bomber who wants the world to see a mighty blow struck against the Great Satan? And if, as some suggest, the trial should be held on Governors Island, would that not make the United States look like a nation under siege?

What do we do if the case against KSM is thrown out because the government refuses to reveal sources or methods, or if he gets a hung jury, or is acquitted, or has his conviction overturned?

In America, trials often become games, where the prosecution, though it has truth on its side, loses because it inadvertently breaks one of the rules.

The Obamaites had best pray that does not happen, for they may be betting his presidency on the outcome of the game about to begin.

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Pat Buchanan was twice a candidate for the Republican presidential nomination and the Reform Party's candidate in 2000. He is also a founder and editor of The American Conservative. Now a political analyst for MSNBC and a syndicated columnist, he served three presidents in the White House, was a founding panelist of three national TV shows, and is the author of seven books.



________________________ _______________________

Pat nailed it IMHO.

kcballer

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2009, 09:27:54 AM »
KSM is going down.  This is a show trial and political move (albeit risky).

I happen to think it is a good thing, bring 'em to the scene of the crime and make them pay for what they did.
Abandon every hope...

Soul Crusher

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2009, 09:30:30 AM »
KSM is going down.  This is a show trial and political move (albeit risky).

I happen to think it is a good thing, bring 'em to the scene of the crime and make them pay for what they did.

I live in NYC.  KC, everyone here is irate over this since we the taxpayers are paying for this charade and major inconveince.  NYS is in the hole by billions and this mess will shut down lower manhattan for everyone.   

kcballer

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2009, 09:35:24 AM »
I live in NYC.  KC, everyone here is irate over this since we the taxpayers are paying for this charade and major inconveince.  NYS is in the hole by billions and this mess will shut down lower manhattan for everyone.   

A small inconvenience compared to the suffering of those killed in the 9/11 attacks.  This person should be tried where he committed the crime.  Those who lived through those terrible events and those who lost someone because of it should get to see this man face justice.  That is the American way.   
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Soul Crusher

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2009, 09:38:04 AM »
A small inconvenience compared to the suffering of those killed in the 9/11 attacks.  This person should be tried where he committed the crime.  Those who lived through those terrible events and those who lost someone because of it should get to see this man face justice.  That is the American way.   

Bro - I live here! 

BTW - he also attacked the Pentagon so why not try him in DC? 


kcballer

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2009, 09:42:41 AM »
Bro - I live here! 

BTW - he also attacked the Pentagon so why not try him in DC? 



Why would you? The pentagon pails in comparision.  The American people want to see justice where the greatest crime was committed.  Simple as that.  If you are your firends can't see that then well i feel sorry for you.  Once again blinded by right wing agenda to bash anything and everything someone who doesn't believe in letting millions of Americans die does.  But hey keep on living the dream or fantasy really because that's all it is in your head. 

Bro you don't speak for all the people in NYC.
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Soul Crusher

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2009, 09:45:47 AM »
Why would you? The pentagon pails in comparision.  The American people want to see justice where the greatest crime was committed.  Simple as that.  If you are your firends can't see that then well i feel sorry for you.  Once again blinded by right wing agenda to bash anything and everything someone who doesn't believe in letting millions of Americans die does.  But hey keep on living the dream or fantasy really because that's all it is in your head. 

Bro you don't speak for all the people in NYC.

Over 50% disagree with rhe decision and why are he holding a trial if the guy had already admitted to guilt and the outcome is pre-determined? 

Why not just give this guy his wish and shoot him if he already admitted guilt and asked for death?   
 

kcballer

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2009, 09:54:22 AM »
Over 50% disagree with rhe decision and why are he holding a trial if the guy had already admitted to guilt and the outcome is pre-determined? 

Why not just give this guy his wish and shoot him if he already admitted guilt and asked for death?   
 

But over 60% of people wanted health care and you deemed that wrong.  So i guess majorities no longer matter sorry 333 by your rule 50% means nothing.
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Eric15210

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2009, 09:55:11 AM »
If this decision cost Obama the Presidency I'm all for it now  ;D

WAR ERIC HOLDER
RIP Bob Probert

Soul Crusher

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2009, 10:01:28 AM »
But over 60% of people wanted health care and you deemed that wrong.  So i guess majorities no longer matter sorry 333 by your rule 50% means nothing.

60% do not want ObamaCare.  That is a lie.  As far as this decision, its a massive waste of money, man power, resources, etc.  They should just give this guy his wish and shoot him.   

Fury

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2009, 10:02:35 AM »
60% do not want ObamaCare.  That is a lie.  As far as this decision, its a massive waste of money, man power, resources, etc.  They should just give this guy his wish and shoot him.   

These guys should have never stepped foot in Guantanamo to begin with. It was idiotic. They should have been interrogated on a CIA prison ship, executed and dumped into the ocean.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2009, 10:08:24 AM »
These guys should have never stepped foot in Guantanamo to begin with. It was idiotic. They should have been interrogated on a CIA prison ship, executed and dumped into the ocean.

Exactly.  If we catch Bin Laden, are we going to go through this massive charade for a second time? 

What I really am having a hard time understanding, and I am speaking as a lawyer, is why we need a trial in the first place when:

1.  KSM has already admitted to guilt and a desire for the death penalty.

2.  Holder pretty much said there is zero doubt of the ultimate outcome.

3.  Even if he is aquitted he is not going to be let go on the streets on lower manhattan.

4.  He is an enemy combatant by and definition and not entitled to constitutional rights or geneva convention protections.

5.  Even if he were afforded Geneva Convention protections the proper venue is a military court, not a civilian court. 

6.  We are trying other terrorists in military tribunals, not civilian courts.  Why is KSM different in that respect? 

I seriously dont get this.  I live in NYC so I dont want to hear the nonsense platitudes spouted by holder and Obama.       

240 is Back

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2009, 10:36:13 AM »
IF IF IF it's a guilty verdict in late 2012...

Obama will no doubt benefit in the election.  Some middle voters will give him credit for convicting the 911 guys - when oddly, Bush chose not to.  Nobody here can still explain why Bush didn't try these guys.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2009, 10:39:34 AM »
IF IF IF it's a guilty verdict in late 2012...

Obama will no doubt benefit in the election.  Some middle voters will give him credit for convicting the 911 guys - when oddly, Bush chose not to.  Nobody here can still explain why Bush didn't try these guys.

240 - since you are a 911 CT guy, if KSM admitts guilt, do you believe he was working with someone else from within the US Govt? 

headhuntersix

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2009, 10:49:39 AM »
These guys should have never stepped foot in Guantanamo to begin with. It was idiotic. They should have been interrogated on a CIA prison ship, executed and dumped into the ocean.

YUp...pretty damm much...suck em dry for info and dump em. "who..what guy..nope never heard of em".
L

240 is Back

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2009, 10:49:48 AM »
240 - since you are a 911 CT guy, if KSM admitts guilt, do you believe he was working with someone else from within the US Govt?  

Respectfully, I don't think you know enough about the CTs to ask this Q.

The most common CT, even though Bush/Condi/Rummy testiomony proves it to be fact, is that KSM, OBL, ZM and the other 19 pricks did it, and all Dubya did was look the other way by allwoing he and his entire team to not read an emergency memo flown to crawford in middle of the night and hand delivered by fbi.

Wrap you mind around there for a few minutes.

The arab pricks did it - but for whatever reason, those sworn to proctect us did not.  This "theory" is supported by Bush's own team of condi and Rummy who admit under oath they were all handed the memo with redacted details on date, target, and names - and they all passed it around without reading it.


My belief is 'failure to act to stop', or LIHOP, let it happen on purpose.  The alternative, and lesser believed theory, is MIHOP (made it happen).  

HTH (Hope this helps).

dario73

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2009, 10:57:59 AM »
Will this terrorist have the right to appeal a guilty verdict?


240 is Back

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2009, 10:59:46 AM »
Will this terrorist have the right to appeal a guilty verdict?

oh god, I didnt even think of that.  yep.  what a sham. 

still, politically, it could be a win. 

And maybe Bush never got the intel to convict them (since Cheney ADMITS torturing it out of ksm), O can't admit that publicly, and convicting on emotion is the best bet.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2009, 11:02:30 AM »
oh god, I didnt even think of that.  yep.  what a sham. 

still, politically, it could be a win. 

And maybe Bush never got the intel to convict them (since Cheney ADMITS torturing it out of ksm), O can't admit that publicly, and convicting on emotion is the best bet.

This is why this whole thing is a complete joke.  it will be years and years and tens of millions of dollars. 

shootfighter1

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2009, 11:03:53 AM »
There is absolutely no good reason not to try KSM in a military court.  I hope this does factor into the 2010 and 2012 elections, it should.  Obama and the left are persuing this civilian court option because of their agenda, not for the good of the people.
Trying terrorists in NYC (at the scene of the crime) will not help NYC cope with this tragedy...there is only pain for the families of the victims.  Give them swift and expedient justice, which is served best in a military court.

headhuntersix

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2009, 11:05:42 AM »
This guy sang like a bird for the CIA....millions of wasted dollars or 3 can roll up to the Courthouse....$25 for parking....3 already paid for his weapon..$3 bucks for bullets...$35 for the bodybag....$12 bucks for a shovel at lowes...I'll dig for free....end of story. 1 dead shitbag for under 100 bucks out the door.
L

Soul Crusher

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2009, 11:10:05 AM »
This guy sang like a bird for the CIA....millions of wasted dollars or 3 can roll up to the Courthouse....$25 for parking....3 already paid for his weapon..$3 bucks for bullets...$35 for the bodybag....$12 bucks for a shovel at lowes...I'll dig for free....end of story. 1 dead shitbag for under 100 bucks out the door.

I would pull the trigger without a blink if I could be guaranteed amnesty from prosecution.  I would actually enjoy it.  I could be down there in 10 minutes by car from my office. 

Hey Barry:  Give me immunity from prosecution and I will save you tens of millions of dollars.  I will bring my own gun, bullets, camera, etc.!       

shootfighter1

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2009, 11:16:57 AM »
This is going to be a huge circus and a long drawn out process...several years.  Also going to publicize more CIA and national protected information that should be kept privilaged...and give terrorists a platform to criticize American.  Probably will rally radical muslims.

George Whorewell

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2009, 11:59:30 AM »
Buchannan may never be a viable candidate for president, but very few commentators nail the issue the way he does.

The simplistic yet overwhelmingly logical argument he puts forth cannot be seriously contested. If this is a criminal matter and Al Queda is being treated as a criminal enterprise, why is the military allowed to kill Al Queda operatives on the spot without asking questions? Why are we fighting against Al Queda strongholds across the middle east-- Shouldn't we be sending FBI agents into these war zones with typed out search warrants?

The whole prospect of having a civilian trial is not only counterintuitive to sound reasoning from both a legal and logistical standpoint, but it's downright stupid when you realize the surrounding circumstances of how America fights terrorism today, and has been doing so for 8+ years.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Trying KSM in NYC may cost Obama the Presidency
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2009, 12:09:50 PM »
Buchannan may never be a viable candidate for president, but very few commentators nail the issue the way he does.

The simplistic yet overwhelmingly logical argument he puts forth cannot be seriously contested. If this is a criminal matter and Al Queda is being treated as a criminal enterprise, why is the military allowed to kill Al Queda operatives on the spot without asking questions? Why are we fighting against Al Queda strongholds across the middle east-- Shouldn't we be sending FBI agents into these war zones with typed out search warrants?

The whole prospect of having a civilian trial is not only counterintuitive to sound reasoning from both a legal and logistical standpoint, but it's downright stupid when you realize the surrounding circumstances of how America fights terrorism today, and has been doing so for 8+ years.

GW - I gave 6 reasons why this is a wierd situation, and notice, not one refuation? 

This whole thing is bizarre.