Author Topic: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court  (Read 3122 times)

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Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« on: November 20, 2009, 07:35:02 AM »
Holder's reasonable decision

By Jim Comey and Jack Goldsmith
Friday, November 20, 2009

Reasonable minds can disagree about Attorney General Eric Holder's decision to prosecute Khalid Sheik Mohammed and four other alleged Sept. 11 perpetrators in a Manhattan federal court. But some prominent criticisms are exaggerated, and others place undue faith in military commissions as an alternative to civilian trials.

Mohammed is many things: an enemy combatant in a war against the United States whom the government can detain without trial until the conflict ends; a war criminal subject to trial by military commission under the laws of war; and someone answerable in federal court for violations of the U.S. criminal code. Which system he is placed in for purposes of incapacitation and justice involves complex legal and political trade-offs.

A trial in Manhattan will bring enormous media attention and require unprecedented security. But it is unlikely to make New York a bigger target than it has been since February 1993, when Mohammed's nephew Ramzi Yousef attacked the World Trade Center. If al-Qaeda could carry out another attack in New York, it would -- a fact true a week ago and for a long time. Its inability to do so is a testament to our military, intelligence and law enforcement responses since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

In deciding to use federal court, the attorney general probably considered the record of the military commission system that was established in November 2001. This system secured three convictions in eight years. The only person who had a full commission trial, Osama bin Laden's driver, received five additional months in prison, resulting in a sentence that was shorter than he probably would have received from a federal judge.

One reason commissions have not worked well is that changes in constitutional, international and military laws since they were last used, during World War II, have produced great uncertainty about the commissions' validity.
This uncertainty has led to many legal challenges that will continue indefinitely -- hardly an ideal situation for the trial of the century.

By contrast, there is no question about the legitimacy of U.S. federal courts to incapacitate terrorists. Many of Holder's critics appear to have forgotten that the Bush administration used civilian courts to put away dozens of terrorists, including "shoe bomber" Richard Reid; al-Qaeda agent Jose Padilla; "American Taliban" John Walker Lindh; the Lackawanna Six; and Zacarias Moussaoui, who was prosecuted for the same conspiracy for which Mohammed is likely to be charged. Many of these terrorists are locked in a supermax prison in Colorado, never to be seen again.

In terrorist trials over the past 15 years, federal prosecutors and judges have gained extensive experience protecting intelligence sources and methods, limiting a defendant's ability to raise irrelevant issues and tightly controlling the courtroom. Moussaoui's trial was challenging because his request for access to terrorists held at "black" sites had to be litigated. Difficulties also arose because Moussaoui acted as his own lawyer, and the judge labored to control him. But it is difficult to imagine a military commission of rudimentary fairness that would not allow a defendant a similar right to represent himself and speak out in court.

In either trial forum, defendants will make an issue of how they were treated and attempt to undermine the trial politically. These efforts are likely to have more traction in a military than a civilian court. No matter how scrupulously fair the commissions are, defendants will criticize their relatively loose rules of evidence, their absence of a civilian jury and their restrictions on the ability to examine classified evidence used against them. Some say it is wrong to give Mohammed trial rights ordinarily conferred on Americans, but a benefit of civilian trials over commissions is that they make it harder for defendants to complain about kangaroo courts or victor's justice.

The potential procedural advantages of military commission trials are relatively unimportant with obviously guilty defendants such as Mohammed, but they help explain the attorney general's related decision last week to consign five men accused of attacking the USS Cole to a military commission. Holder indicated that he was doing so in part because the Cole was a military target outside the United States, but that reason does not hold up. The Pentagon was a military target, many aspects of the Sept. 11 attacks were planned abroad, and the Cole attack is already the subject of a federal indictment in New York.

It is more likely that Holder decided to use a commission system still learning to walk because the Cole case is relatively weak and will benefit from the marginal advantages the commission system offers the government. It is also likely that the Justice Department will decide that many other terrorists at Guantanamo Bay will not be tried in civilian or military court but, rather, will be held under a military detention rationale more suitable to the circumstances of their cases.

These decisions have already invited charges of opportunistic forum shopping. The Bush administration, criticized on similar grounds, properly explained that it would use whatever lawful tool worked best, all things considered, to incapacitate a particular terrorist. Holder's decisions appear to reflect a similarly pragmatic approach.

Of course, the attorney general made a different call on Mohammed than did the Bush administration. The wisdom of that difficult judgment will be determined by future events. But Holder's critics do not help their case by understating the criminal justice system's capacities, overstating the military system's virtues and bumper-stickering a reasonable decision.

Jim Comey, a deputy attorney general and U.S. attorney in Manhattan during the Bush administration, is general counsel of Lockheed Martin Corp. Jack Goldsmith, an assistant attorney general during the Bush administration, teaches at Harvard Law School and is on the Hoover Institution's Task Force on National Security and Law.
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240 is Back

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2009, 08:28:59 AM »
crickets coming out for this one.  he's a filthy lib now.


hey, seriously, can ANYONE pelase answer the Q - why did bush never prosecute these guys in military tribuanls?

Eyeball Chambers

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2009, 08:31:32 AM »
crickets coming out for this one.  he's a filthy lib now.


hey, seriously, can ANYONE pelase answer the Q - why did bush never prosecute these guys in military tribuanls?

Bush is a traitor

Case closed
S

shootfighter1

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2009, 08:37:07 AM »
Cases like this are made for the military court.  I don't care who comes out on the right or left supporting the civil court decision.  It would be easier, safer, more efficient, and less costly to try these admitted terrorists in a military court.  This is going to be an expensive, drawn out circus with the potential for public criticizms of the CIA and U.S. government sharing the spotlight with sentencing the terrorists.  Poor decision.  Their agenda is more important than expediancy.
Bush should have prosecuted KSM during his term, for that we can fault him.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2009, 08:41:47 AM »
crickets coming out for this one.  he's a filthy lib now.


hey, seriously, can ANYONE pelase answer the Q - why did bush never prosecute these guys in military tribuanls?

Let's see, one opinion vs, hundreds. 

240 - you are not a lawyer and neither is benny butthead. 

You have no clue what you are talking about on legal issues.  NONE! 

This is an expensive gamble and Obama, through his brilliance, has already jeapordized the proceedings by his statements guaranteeing a conviction and death.  For someone who went to Harvard Law, he should know better than to taint the jury pool, make pre-trial comments like this, and otherwise comprimise the integrity of the justice system.     

tonymctones

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2009, 09:07:35 AM »
Cases like this are made for the military court.  I don't care who comes out on the right or left supporting the civil court decision.  It would be easier, safer, more efficient, and less costly to try these admitted terrorists in a military court.  This is going to be an expensive, drawn out circus with the potential for public criticizms of the CIA and U.S. government sharing the spotlight with sentencing the terrorists.  Poor decision.  Their agenda is more important than expediancy.
Bush should have prosecuted KSM during his term, for that we can fault him.
agreed with 100%

bush definitely should have dealt with this when he was in office

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2009, 09:10:37 AM »
Why didn't Bush prosecute them?

he had waterboarded the shit out of them by 2003/2004.

Then, they sat without military trial for 4 years, even as congress fell to the dems and everybody pretty much knew the libs had a legit shot at getting into office in 08.

Why didn't bush prosecute them?  He has the guts to invade 2 nations and sink the dollar to fund it - and to RELEASE a few hundred of these guys - but not to just put a dozen on trial?

Someone, please explain that?

Soul Crusher

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2009, 09:12:08 AM »
240 - I honestly have no idea why he didnt do it. 

However, this KSM thing has a lot of problems now.   

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2009, 09:20:05 AM »
there HAD to be some reason he'd leave all those loose ends like that.

My own guess?  He got nada form them until he started torturing.  (as he admits they tortured KSM and others).  And maybe (you tell me!) There isn't a way to convinct in military court using torture as the only admissable evidence?

if that is the case - then obama shuld get a pass.  He inherited a case that can't be won in military court.  And he's using emotion in NYC to hang these guys.

Is this a possibility, 33? 
You're a lawyer - will military courts admit evidence foud thru torture?  Cause that KSM didn't admit a thing til after a looooong waterboarding, they admit that.

IF Obama's only move was to let them be acquited in miltary trial, or have a chance at guilty conviction on emtion in NYC, then he did the right move. 

kcballer

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2009, 09:28:28 AM »
Great post and article.  Outlines exactly why he is and should face justice in a civilian court.  This is not new for terrorists, it's been done before.  He plainly states why it's not a military court case and i welcome the prosecution of this scum bag at the scene of the crime. 

It seems to be more sore loser syndrome from the republican's on this board. 
Abandon every hope...

Skip8282

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2009, 09:43:33 AM »
IF Obama's only move was to let them be acquited in miltary trial, or have a chance at guilty conviction on emtion in NYC, then he did the right move.  


That is not his only two options, nor has it ever been.

The fact that they're being paraded through our Justice system or military tribunals does not give us the moral high ground.  I think most would agree that regardless of the outcomes, there is no way these guys are going to go free.  And if that's the case, these trials don't even provide the perception of valid jurisprudence.

Indefinite detention may very well be the only method of keeping these shitbags from harming us.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2009, 09:45:21 AM »

That is not his only two options, nor has it ever been.

The fact that they're being paraded through our Justice system or military tribunals does not give us the moral high ground.  I think most would agree that regardless of the outcomes, there is no way these guys are going to go free.  And if that's the case, these trials don't even provide the perception of valid jurisprudence.

Indefinite detention may very well be the only method of keeping these shitbags from harming us.

KC is a clown who does not understand the legal raminfications of this.  KC is also a obot who apparently did not watch the holder hearing where holder had to concede that this has never been done before. 

kcballer

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2009, 09:56:26 AM »
KC is a clown who does not understand the legal raminfications of this.  KC is also a obot who apparently did not watch the holder hearing where holder had to concede that this has never been done before. 

What legal ramifications? Actually bringing to trial a terrorist? Rather than 'detaining' him without trial or going through a military trial which as pointed out above is flawed in more ways than a civilian trial.

You just want to hate no matter what.  Go back to spamming about Palin Napoleon

Abandon every hope...

dario73

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2009, 10:00:58 AM »
Use our civilian courts to try terrorists CAUGHT IN THE BATTLEFIELD???




tonymctones

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2009, 10:03:35 AM »
all this does is make a mockery of our civilian legal system...

anybody here think he will get a fair trial?
anybody here think he has recieved the legal rights of a civilian here in the US?

a breach in civil rights has already been committed this will invalidate the whole process if it continues in our civilian legal system.




tonymctones

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2009, 10:07:18 AM »
What legal ramifications? Actually bringing to trial a terrorist? Rather than 'detaining' him without trial or going through a military trial which as pointed out above is flawed in more ways than a civilian trial.

You just want to hate no matter what.  Go back to spamming about Palin Napoleon


There was this little case in which a defendant of the last name miranda argued that it was unlawful to not inform the person under arrest of their legal rights.

Did KSM get informed of his legal rights at the time of arrest or before questioning?
Did KSM have due process?

If you allow this case to continue in civilian court even with a guilty plea you HAVE BREACHED THE LEGAL PROTOCOL YOU NUMB NUT FUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!

On appeal which every case has the right to this will be over turned by the appeals court due to breach in the legal protocol...

tonymctones

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2009, 10:09:25 AM »
^^

if it doesnt what does that say about our civilian legal system?

its ok to fuck ppl over as long as we are agreed they are bad guys?

UNFUCKINGCONSTITUTIONAL is the word your looking for

these ppl are not US citizens, their acts where acts of terrorism, and thus should fall into the military realm of legal process...

Soul Crusher

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2009, 10:22:49 AM »
What legal ramifications? Actually bringing to trial a terrorist? Rather than 'detaining' him without trial or going through a military trial which as pointed out above is flawed in more ways than a civilian trial.

You just want to hate no matter what.  Go back to spamming about Palin Napoleon



KC - stop trying to fight with the big boys, you are no competition.

Imagine if HH6 catches OBL on the battlefield and OBL says to HH6 - I am taking the 5th amendment and want to speak to my lawyer.  I dont authorize you to ask me any further questions.

However, HH6 also just came into information that OBL had intel and info on a massive shipment of bombs, IEDS, AK's etc were geading his way.

What should HH6 do in that situation?       

George Whorewell

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2009, 10:39:27 AM »
The articles whole argument goes in the toilet when you consider the fact that KSM had already confessed and agreed to a military tribunal to face the death penalty.  Under these circumstances how can anyone justify the military tribunal system being less of a sure thing than a criminal court room? When pressed on this, Holder smugly replied that KSM doesn't get to decide where he is prosecuted. Wonderful  ::)

Another ridiculous argument the article makes is the idea that because there have been previous successful convictions obtained over terrorists in criminal court, the KSM trial should be business as usual. This is utter nonsense for a number of reasons. First of all,  "shoe bomber" Richard Reid; al-Qaeda agent Jose Padilla;  the Lackawanna Six; and Zacarias Moussaoui were all captured inside America. None of the aforementioned could be considered masterminds of anything except poor hygiene and none of these suspects were subjected to enhanced interrogation ( obviously, because they were captured inside the United States). As a result, there was no issue over the suppression of evidence, Miranda warnings, constitutional protections, or any of the other garbage that is likely to delay this trial for years.

Lets also remember that none of these guys actually carried out any successful attacks and hence, none were tried before a jury which was selected from a pool of individuals that were directly impacted by their terrorist activities-- Moussaui, the bumbling 21st hijacker comes the closest. Any decent defense attorney is going to exploit the passion 911 arouses to hamper jury selection, attempt to change venue and use the trial as a referendum on Bush administration interrogation tactics.  

The lone example of an Al-Queda agent convicted in criminal court that was cited by the article-- John Walker Lindh-- would have been a slam dunk regardless.  As a US citizen, he should have been convicted of high treason and executed regardless of whether or not he was tried in a civilian or military court. Instead, he was shown mercy with a 20 year sentence.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2009, 10:45:51 AM »
GW - great post as always.  I always enjoy your writing style! 

I posed the following question so maybe the brain dead libs on this board can understand this: 


HH6 is heading for deployment in the next weeks. 
 
Imagine if HH6 catches OBL on the battlefield and OBL says to HH6:

"I am taking the 5th amendment and want to speak to my lawyer.  I dont authorize you to ask me any further questions and want to see my lawyer immediately.  By precedent of the KSM situation, I demand a civilian trial and do not authorize any interrogation.  Any statements made by me hereafter are a result of coercion."


However, HH6 also just came into information that OBL had intel and info on a massive shipment of bombs, IEDS, AK's etc were geading his way.  HH6 found a crytpic document on OBL he cant really make out but he believes can lead him to information directly from OBL that may save the life of his soldiers and those within his care.

What should HH6 do in that situation?       


________________________ ________________________ _______

Come you liberal idiots - lets have this debate.

240 is Back

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2009, 11:07:01 AM »
Q 1) did KSM confess without being tortured?
       yes or no?

Q 2) can a military tribunal convict solely on self-incriminating testimony gained thru torture?

       yes or no?



(mind you, i'm all for his ass walking the plank - but as a legal issue - if they knew it wouldn't fly in a military trial, then this was the only option)


Soul Crusher

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2009, 11:10:59 AM »
He is going to say yes 240.  He is going to say that he was tortured from the minute he was brought into custodial custody. 

240 - I am a lawyer, not a criminal lawyer, but know enough about the 4th amend to know that this is really rolling the dice.   

tonymctones

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2009, 11:12:51 AM »
Q 1) did KSM confess without being tortured?
       yes or no?

Q 2) can a military tribunal convict solely on self-incriminating testimony gained thru torture?

       yes or no?



(mind you, i'm all for his ass walking the plank - but as a legal issue - if they knew it wouldn't fly in a military trial, then this was the only option)
youre ASSuming that all they have on him is his confession, also is at this point still intending to plead guilty from what i ascertain.

Did he receive his miranda rights?
did he receive due process?

LOL civilian trial isnt an option 240 again try understanding our legal system and you will see the holes in the due process as it pertains to KSM

If you violate this process a guilty plea WILL BE overturned by the appeals court, if it isnt overturned what does that say about our CIVILIAN LEGAL SYSTEM?

perhaps this is why bush never tried him and probably intended to let him rot for the rest of his miserable life.

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2009, 11:22:20 AM »
GW - great post as always.  I always enjoy your writing style! 

I posed the following question so maybe the brain dead libs on this board can understand this: 


HH6 is heading for deployment in the next weeks. 
 
Imagine if HH6 catches OBL on the battlefield and OBL says to HH6:

"I am taking the 5th amendment and want to speak to my lawyer.  I dont authorize you to ask me any further questions and want to see my lawyer immediately.  By precedent of the KSM situation, I demand a civilian trial and do not authorize any interrogation.  Any statements made by me hereafter are a result of coercion."


However, HH6 also just came into information that OBL had intel and info on a massive shipment of bombs, IEDS, AK's etc were geading his way.  HH6 found a crytpic document on OBL he cant really make out but he believes can lead him to information directly from OBL that may save the life of his soldiers and those within his care.

What should HH6 do in that situation?       


________________________ ________________________ _______

Come you liberal idiots - lets have this debate.

It's safe to say that, if HH6 were to find Bin Laden, THERE WOULD BE NO TRIAL!!!

Soul Crusher

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Re: Bush Justice Officials: Smart Move To Try KSM In Federal Court
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2009, 11:26:10 AM »
Oh really?  If OBL said that and HH6 put a few bullets in him, HH6 is facing a court martial for murder. 

You really need to understand the ramifications of criminalizing our war effort with regard to the federal courts.

If OBL said what I said he could, and HH6 shoots him, HH6 is going away.