Painful Botches:

[Playboy]

And before anyone else posts it...
Yes, the name of the move is very ironical.

That was f*****d. Very painfull as you can see it in his face litterally. Then they wonder why these guys need Vicodin and Soma.

[The Showstoppa]

the thing I never understood about those type of moves is....why?  Majority of fans don't understand the high risk of it and even if you land it, its often just "another move" in the match......older generation could generate more heat from nothing more than well done suplex, yet this generation comes along and it has to be high spot after high spot......glad I was around for decent wrestling.

[Montague]

the thing I never understood about those type of moves is....why?  Majority of fans don't understand the high risk of it and even if you land it, its often just "another move" in the match......older generation could generate more heat from nothing more than well done suplex, yet this generation comes along and it has to be high spot after high spot......glad I was around for decent wrestling.

I agree.
But, don't forget that audiences have changed as well.

The more people see, the more desensitized they become, and that places greater demands on what the performance must deliver.
The industry certainly fed the monster by giving the fans more, but at the same time, people would've grown tired of the old spots regardless.

[The Showstoppa]

I agree.
But, don't forget that audiences have changed as well.

The more people see, the more desensitized they become, and that places greater demands on what the performance must deliver.
The industry certainly fed the monster by giving the fans more, but at the same time, people would've grown tired of the old spots regardless.

I've always stuggled with that.  I can remember seeing the Warriors, for example, doing stuff that just seemed so devastating at the time and I was so impressed.  Honestly though, if its done right basics could have been getting over for a much longer time..... example Steamboat vs Savage at WM still holds up and there weren't anybody jumping off the roof on each other......same of a lot of HBK's work, etc...  I think the key kissing ingredient is the ring psychology.  You can build up and build up and make a choke slam seem devastating.....or you can just throw it in the mix and have it be forgotten....

[Playboy]

the thing I never understood about those type of moves is....why?  Majority of fans don't understand the high risk of it and even if you land it, its often just "another move" in the match......older generation could generate more heat from nothing more than well done suplex, yet this generation comes along and it has to be high spot after high spot......glad I was around for decent wrestling.

They do it to get over and more to get noticed. You notice the top dogs NEVER do those crazy stunts and dives? Its always the smaller guys in the "bush leagues" or indies trying to do that stuff. By the time they make it to the big time or if already in the WWE they want a top spot, by then they are half crippled. Mick Foley was a perfect example of this. Forced to retire at 34 yrs of age.

[The Showstoppa]

They do it to get over and more to get noticed. You notice the top dogs NEVER do those crazy stunts and dives? Its always the smaller guys in the "bush leagues" or indies trying to do that stuff. By the time they make it to the big time or if already in the WWE they want a top spot, by then they are half crippled. Mick Foley was a perfect example of this. Forced to retire at 34 yrs of age.

Yep....did you read Foleys book?  He went on and on about the reason he didn't like Flair is because Ric basically told him that.  Something like being a stuntman who would be out of wrestling before 35.......  I bet Mick looks back on that conversation in a different light now.

[Playboy]

Yep....did you read Foleys book?  He went on and on about the reason he didn't like Flair is because Ric basically told him that.  Something like being a stuntman who would be out of wrestling before 35.......  I bet Mick looks back on that conversation in a different light now.

I hate to say it but Flair was right. Foley has no wrestling ability whatsoever. He did crazy shit in the independants, he jumped off the roof of his parents house and he did crazy shit in Japan. That is how he got noticed and hired by WCW & WWE. He IS a glorified stunt man.

[The Showstoppa]

I hate to say it but Flair was right. Foley has no wrestling ability whatsoever. He did crazy shit in the independants, he jumped off the roof of his parents house and he did crazy shit in Japan. That is how he got noticed and hired by WCW & WWE. He IS a glorified stunt man.

Yep.....and what was bad is here is Flair, one of the greatest of all-time and been doing it for years, trying to give advice to Foley on how to extend his career and Foley took it as a slap in the face....some garbage about how he never didn't give the fans their moneys worth.....uh, like Flair ever did in a match ? 

[Playboy]

Yep.....and what was bad is here is Flair, one of the greatest of all-time and been doing it for years, trying to give advice to Foley on how to extend his career and Foley took it as a slap in the face....some garbage about how he never didn't give the fans their moneys worth.....uh, like Flair ever did in a match ? 

The truth is the truth. Take all the big falls and chairshots away from Foley and what does he have? A stupid sock and a very sad mandable claw which was performed correctly by Kerry Von Eric and The Baron back in the day.

[Montague]

I've always stuggled with that.  I can remember seeing the Warriors, for example, doing stuff that just seemed so devastating at the time and I was so impressed.  Honestly though, if its done right basics could have been getting over for a much longer time..... example Steamboat vs Savage at WM still holds up and there weren't anybody jumping off the roof on each other......same of a lot of HBK's work, etc...  I think the key kissing ingredient is the ring psychology.  You can build up and build up and make a choke slam seem devastating.....or you can just throw it in the mix and have it be forgotten....

Yep, it's called working; telling a story.
Guys do the crazy stuff now because they have to - it's the only way they can get noticed as Playboy pointed out above.
And, of course, the problem now is that everybody is doing the super-crazy shit, so even that doesn't mean anything anymore.

One of the last good Mania matches I saw in which the performers knew how to build & tell a story during their match was Y2J vs. HBK.
IIRC, not one person landed in thumbtacks or crashed through a burning table.
It was refreshing to not just me, but to everyone in the arena (figuratively speaking).
Everybody enjoyed it!

What's that tell you?

[mass 04]

the thing I never understood about those type of moves is....why?  Majority of fans don't understand the high risk of it and even if you land it, its often just "another move" in the match......older generation could generate more heat from nothing more than well done suplex, yet this generation comes along and it has to be high spot after high spot......glad I was around for decent wrestling.

I remember a quote from Cornette, something like.. 25 years ago people thought we were killing each other and it was soft. Today, guys really are killing themselves and no one is buying it. For all the love the "Attitude" era gets, I think it did just as much harm as it did good.

[mass 04]

Not a botch but I cringe everytime I see it, especially when you think how bad his back was.

[ckanyon99]

I don't know about a Painful Botches but painful to watch

[Playboy]

Not a botch but I cringe everytime I see it, especially when you think how bad his back was.

And he STILL went out and performed. If you watch that entire match, you can see in Michael's face how much pain his back was in every time he bent over. I wonder how many somas and pain killers he took before he went out there?

[Montague]

And he STILL went out and performed. If you watch that entire match, you can see in Michael's face how much pain his back was in every time he bent over. I wonder how many somas and pain killers he took before he went out there?

LOL!!!
I wonder what and how much he self-medicated after the match, as well.

[MCWAY]

Here's one for you: Candice Michelle, landing on her head, during a best-of-3-falls match Women's title match against Beth Phoenix.

[Playboy]

LOL!!!
I wonder what and how much he self-medicated after the match, as well.

Apparently he got worse and thats when his pill popping habit really got bad. Hense the scrap with HHH back in 2001 when he cam back as Raw GM temporarily. If you get a chance, google the Kevin Nash shoot interviews on youtube. He basically tells some road stories and really gets into how when they were The Click, Hall & Michaels would wash down somas with booze and get stoned after every show.