Author Topic: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked  (Read 2578 times)

Al Doggity

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7286
  • Old School Gemini
New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« on: November 24, 2009, 10:17:28 AM »
WASHINGTON — Now that unemployment has topped 10 percent, some liberal-leaning economists see confirmation of their warnings that the $787 billion stimulus package President Obama signed into law last February was way too small. The economy needs a second big infusion, they say.

No, some conservative-leaning economists counter, we were right: The package has been wasteful, ineffectual and even harmful to the extent that it adds to the nation’s debt and crowds out private-sector borrowing.

These long-running arguments have flared now that the White House and Congressional leaders are talking about a new “jobs bill.” But with roughly a quarter of the stimulus money out the door after nine months, the accumulation of hard data and real-life experience has allowed more dispassionate analysts to reach a consensus that the stimulus package, messy as it is, is working.

The legislation, a variety of economists say, is helping an economy in free fall a year ago to grow again and shed fewer jobs than it otherwise would. Mr. Obama’s promise to “save or create” about 3.5 million jobs by the end of 2010 is roughly on track, though far more jobs are being saved than created, especially among states and cities using their money to avoid cutting teachers, police officers and other workers.

“It was worth doing — it’s made a difference,” said Nigel Gault, chief economist at IHS Global Insight, a financial forecasting and analysis group based in Lexington, Mass.

Mr. Gault added: “I don’t think it’s right to look at it by saying, ‘Well, the economy is still doing extremely badly, therefore the stimulus didn’t work.’ I’m afraid the answer is, yes, we did badly but we would have done even worse without the stimulus.”

In interviews, a broad range of economists said the White House and Congress were right to structure the package as a mix of tax cuts and spending, rather than just tax cuts as Republicans prefer or just spending as many Democrats do. And it is fortuitous, many say, that the money gets doled out over two years — longer for major construction — considering the probable length of the “jobless recovery” under way as wary employers hold off on new hiring.

But there are criticisms, mainly that the Obama team relied last winter on overly optimistic economic assumptions and oversold the job-creating benefits of the stimulus package.

Optimistic assumptions in turn contributed to producing a package that if anything is too small, analysts say. “The economy was weaker than we thought at the time, so maybe in retrospect we could have used a little bit more and little bit more front-loaded,” said Joel Prakken, chairman of Macroeconomic Advisers, another financial analysis group, in St. Louis.

While some conservatives remain as skeptical as ever that big increases in government spending give the economy a jolt that is worth the cost, Martin Feldstein, a conservative Harvard economist who served in the Reagan administration, said the problem with the package was that some of its tax cuts and spending programs were of a variety that did little to spur the economy.

“There should have been more direct federal spending that would have added to aggregate demand,” he said. “Temporary tax cuts and one-time transfers to seniors were largely saved and didn’t stimulate spending.”

Even the $787 billion price tag overstates the plan’s stimulus value given changes made in Congress, economists say. Nearly a tenth of the package, $70 billion, comes from a provision adjusting the alternative minimum tax so it does not hit middle-income taxpayers this year. That routine fix, which would do nothing to stimulate the economy, was added in part to seek Republican votes. But to keep the package’s overall cost down, provisions that would stimulate the economy — like aid to revenue-starved states and infrastructure projects — got less as a result.

Among Democrats in the White House and Congress, “there was a considerable amount of hand-wringing that it was too small, and I sympathized with that argument,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist of Moody’s Economy.com and an occasional adviser to lawmakers.

Even so, “the stimulus is doing what it was supposed to do — it is contributing to ending the recession,” he added, citing the economy’s third-quarter expansion by a 3.5 percent seasonally adjusted annual rate. “In my view, without the stimulus, G.D.P. would still be negative and unemployment would be firmly over 11 percent. And there are a little over 1.1 million more jobs out there as of October than would have been out there without the stimulus.”

Politically, however, the president is saddled with his original claim that, with the stimulus, the jobless rate would peak at 8.1 percent — a miscalculation that Republicans constantly recall. While the administration has said its economic assumptions were in line with private forecasts, most of which also underestimated the recession’s punch, it was more optimistic than most.

“That was a mistake,” said Jeffrey A. Frankel, a Harvard University economist and former Clinton administration official who is a member of the National Bureau of Economic Research panel that judges when recessions start and end. “I thought so at the time.”

Christina D. Romer, chairwoman of Mr. Obama’s Council of Economic Advisers, said attention to that too-rosy projection “prevents people from focusing on the positive impact of the fiscal stimulus. So of course I find that frustrating.”

Much federal infrastructure money has gone not to new job-creating projects but to finance existing plans, which otherwise would be unaffordable to states.

So the stimulus has not “supercharged” transportation construction as was hoped, said Charles Gallagher, an asphalt company owner, speaking for the American Road and Transportation Builders Association, but it has nonetheless been “a welcome Band-Aid” to offset state cuts.

“Many contractors across the nation have been able to sustain, if not add to, their work force,” he said.

That sort of impact is what makes federal aid to state governments rank high in economists’ reckoning of the stimulus value of various proposals. Every dollar of additional infrastructure spending means $1.57 in economic activity, according to Moody’s, and general aid to states carries a $1.41 “bang” for each federal buck.

Even more effective are increases for food stamps ($1.74) and unemployment checks ($1.61), because recipients quickly spend their benefits on goods and services.

By contrast, most temporary tax cuts cost more than the stimulus they provide, according to research by Moody’s. That is true of two tax breaks in the stimulus law that Congress, pressed by industry lobbyists, recently extended and sweetened — a tax credit for homebuyers (90 cents of stimulus for each dollar of tax subsidy) and extra deductions for businesses’ net operating losses (21 cents).

Economists said Republicans’ recent proposals to rescind unspent money would be a mistake.

James Glassman, a senior economist at JPMorgan Chase & Company, said: “If we could be absolutely convinced that the growth we’re getting is for reasons beyond the help the government is giving, then that would make sense. But the fact is we can’t be certain of that.”

240 is Back

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 102387
  • Complete website for only $300- www.300website.com
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2009, 10:18:56 AM »
Obama asked for 18 months.

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2009, 10:27:16 AM »
This article really didnt give any reasoning behind the way they feel  ::)


Al Doggity

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7286
  • Old School Gemini
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2009, 10:37:02 AM »
This article gave multiple reasons- among them the fact that the aid allowed many project to go forward that would have otherwise been cut.

12secGT

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 580
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2009, 11:32:01 AM »
This article gave multiple reasons- among them the fact that the aid allowed many project to go forward that would have otherwise been cut.
Yeah, and the job numbers have been flubbed and that states who received stim money used it to pay bills in medicare and others like internal payroll. The unemployment rate is about 10%, but is actually 17% when you include those people who lost jobs but either found part time work, or stopped looking at all. So, billions later, the econ. is still in the tank. But Mr. O says he brought it back from the brink. He says we need to do the same thing about a broken healthcare system. Hurry hurry hurry!! Yet, he takes months to figure out what he's going to do in Afghanistan. We can't even SAY terrorists... He needed to play 56 rounds of golf, now eat some turkey while 12 troops died yesterday and NOW we need to wait for Tuesday in dec to hear mr superstar to tell us what he is going to do. Imagine if Bush did this?? Bush had his own stim package and I did not agree with that so before you go and say I am a party player I am not. Bush spent a ton of money and I didn't agree with that. Let them fail. F-EM! But he never sold us out like Obama has. Tripling debt and now driving us into a socialist state. This is rediculous, and according to 43% approval ratings, he is a one hit wonder. Just hope he doesn't do too much damage that can't be fixed.

BodyProSite

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1096
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2009, 11:50:39 AM »
the only people the commies stimulous bill worked for is AIG, some of the unions, ( corrupt ones)  and half the banks and financial institutes( corrupt ones, or the ones that were too stupid to do good business and shoulda failed anyway). You call that working???  OH  and dont let me forget, it helped out GMC ( government motors corp.)

Soul Crusher

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41760
  • Doesnt lie about lifting.
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2009, 11:55:20 AM »
the only people the commies stimulous bill worked for is AIG, some of the unions, ( corrupt ones)  and half the banks and financial institutes( corrupt ones, or the ones that were too stupid to do good business and shoulda failed anyway). You call that working???  OH  and dont let me forget, it helped out GMC ( government motors corp.)

Al:  GMAFB! 

The stimulus bill is a disaster and has not worked. 


Al Doggity

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7286
  • Old School Gemini
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2009, 11:57:28 AM »
He was at about 48 on Gallup last week, and that's not exactly insurmountable. Clinton and Reagan both experienced lower during their first terms- and  both numbers coincided with recessions.

You can feel any way you want to feel about the stimulus or Bush, but more and more observers are objectively saying it worked on a significant level. There was a report out not too long ago analyzing the real unemployment numbers and it was interesting how this recession isn't like most recessions. The actual job loss rate is not that great in comparison to all recent recessions, but the hiring freeze is where employment problems stem from.

BM OUT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8229
  • Getbig!
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2009, 11:57:44 AM »
The stimulous has not created ONE job.NOT ONE!!!!All it did was reward unions and government PERIOD!!!You want to stimulate the economy,a one year elimination of pay roll taxes.However,that wont happen because the little community organiser knows best.

Al Doggity

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7286
  • Old School Gemini
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2009, 12:00:30 PM »
Al:  GMAFB! 

The stimulus bill is a disaster and has not worked. 



The bill is far from a disaster. It hasn't worked quite like Obama claimed it would, but over the months, even you have admitted that your clients are reacting differently in regards to surplus. Technology has given businesses ways to be more nimble, which is a good thing, but it's harder to predict how they will react.

Kazan

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6799
  • Sic vis pacem, parabellum
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2009, 12:02:10 PM »
Tell the 1 in 5 Americans  unemployed or underemployed that the stimulus worked
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Al Doggity

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7286
  • Old School Gemini
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2009, 12:03:27 PM »
The stimulous has not created ONE job.NOT ONE!!!!All it did was reward unions and government PERIOD!!!

These are the ramblings of a crazy man. Even if you don't believe the stimulus was effective, it has definitively created some jobs. If has definitively saved others.

Quote
You want to stimulate the economy,a one year elimination of pay roll taxes.However,that wont happen because the little community organiser knows best.

Nooo... surely, you know better.

Al Doggity

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7286
  • Old School Gemini
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2009, 12:04:05 PM »
Tell the 1 in 5 Americans  unemployed or underemployed that the stimulus worked

The point of the article is that that rate would have been even higher without it.

Soul Crusher

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41760
  • Doesnt lie about lifting.
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2009, 12:04:37 PM »
The bill is far from a disaster. It hasn't worked quite like Obama claimed it would, but over the months, even you have admitted that your clients are reacting differently in regards to surplus. Technology has given businesses ways to be more nimble, which is a good thing, but it's harder to predict how they will react.

Al:  Here is my problem.  You live in NY like me.  The stimulus bill has been used to close budget holes and keep govt jobs going.  So, if the economy does not improve and tax receipts dont imprve, then what?  Those jobs are gone anyway, but the debt remains forever for future generations to pay.

We need sustainable long termprivate jobs in manufacturing, production, tech, etc, not govt and health care etc.

There are plans to re-build the Tappan Zee Bridge.  Why could they use the stim bill for that?  This thing was really wrongly headed IMHO.    

Kazan

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6799
  • Sic vis pacem, parabellum
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2009, 12:05:23 PM »
"Saved" jobs? How does one measure saved jobs? Yet another new term created to make things seem better than they are.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Kazan

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6799
  • Sic vis pacem, parabellum
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2009, 12:07:59 PM »
The point of the article is that that rate would have been even higher without it.

Do they have a crystal ball? Are they psychic? Omnipotent or all of the above? How do they know if they just let the market and bad business fail that we wouldn't be in better shape now?
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Soul Crusher

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41760
  • Doesnt lie about lifting.
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2009, 12:10:41 PM »
Do they have a crystal ball? Are they psychic? Omnipotent or all of the above? How do they know if they just let the market and bad business fail that we wouldn't be in better shape now?

Exactly, many businesses wont hire people now BECAUSE of the uncertainty of what their costs will be to pay for all of these programs. 

Al Doggity

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7286
  • Old School Gemini
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2009, 12:13:44 PM »
"Saved" jobs? How does one measure saved jobs? Yet another new term created to make things seem better than they are.

Like 333 says in the post above yours, the stim bill has been used to close budget gaps and keep govt jobs going. The only thing is that it was a lot further reaching than just gov't jobs and even public works jobs. You don't need a crystal ball to figure that out. The fact that that happened is not up for debate.


Al Doggity

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7286
  • Old School Gemini
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2009, 12:15:05 PM »
Exactly, many businesses wont hire people now BECAUSE of the uncertainty of what their costs will be to pay for all of these programs. 

Hiring has been stalled since the middle of last year, before the stimulus bill was passed.

BodyProSite

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1096
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2009, 12:17:35 PM »
the only jobs this bill created were more government jobs which helps tax payers in no way ,  and it created a few dozen jobs at min wage that only lasted a week or 2 !! oooooo  thats realy worth the price tag huh???

Soul Crusher

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41760
  • Doesnt lie about lifting.
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2009, 12:19:06 PM »
Hiring has been stalled since the middle of last year, before the stimulus bill was passed.



Al:  If the economy does not improve and tax receipts are still down, what do we do?  Even Paterson is calling for massive cuts in NY because he knows the stim money wont be there next year, yet the costs will.  

The stim bill merely kicked the can down the road a little bit on a gamble that the consumer would start spending again.  

shootfighter1

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5674
  • Competitor- NABBA Nationals Overall Champ
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2009, 12:21:29 PM »
I believe the stimulus has helped some...at least prevented a worse trough.  My arguement is similar to 333s...many of these jobs are temporary, many gov jobs, too much given to unions, too much pork given to BS projects, not enough to help small businesses who create jobs, the concept of a "saved job" is wobbly and the incredible added cost to the deficit only produced a marginal return.  Not to mention we are still loosing jobs.

This analysis is assuming the reported # of jobs saved & created is accurate, which is already proven false.  Unemployment is also underestimated.

Soul Crusher

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41760
  • Doesnt lie about lifting.
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2009, 12:23:43 PM »
the only jobs this bill created were more government jobs which helps tax payers in no way ,  and it created a few dozen jobs at min wage that only lasted a week or 2 !! oooooo  thats realy worth the price tag huh???

It really didnt create jobs as it just kept existing things going for a little longer.   

shootfighter1

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5674
  • Competitor- NABBA Nationals Overall Champ
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2009, 12:24:49 PM »
I believe people that were cut from full time to part time are not accounted for...or even counted as a job saved.  The more the gov alters the "jobs saved or created" #s, the more people can say the stimulus worked...though it's misleading.
Many complained about the "jobs saved or created" definition when they announced the stimulus, and for good reason.

Al Doggity

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7286
  • Old School Gemini
Re: New Consensus: Stimulus Worked
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2009, 12:30:10 PM »


Al:  If the economy does not improve and tax receipts are still down, what do we do?  Even Paterson is calling for massive cuts in NY because he knows the stim money wont be there next year, yet the costs will.  

The stim bill merely kicked the can down the road a little bit on a gamble that the consumer would start spending again.  
That's exactly what it was meant to do.
It was a stimulus bill- meant to stimulate the economy quickly with an infusion of cash. The economy is cyclical and has to recover at some point.