Author Topic: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist  (Read 8076 times)

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2009, 02:04:23 PM »
yeah, and while i agreed...

ya gotta remember those guys capped someone, and didnt' report it.  Maybe they didn't deserve prison, as the dude was a smuggler.

but again, if they are allowed to cap 1 guy and get no punishment, you suddenly have 600 border agent issuing bullets to asses anytime they want, able to say "well you didn't punish those 2 guys...."

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2009, 02:06:51 PM »
yeah, and while i agreed...

ya gotta remember those guys capped someone, and didnt' report it.  Maybe they didn't deserve prison, as the dude was a smuggler.

but again, if they are allowed to cap 1 guy and get no punishment, you suddenly have 600 border agent issuing bullets to asses anytime they want, able to say "well you didn't punish those 2 guys...."

They thought the guy had a weapon, especially after he had a ton pot in the van.  Johnny Sutton was a Bush crony and Bush was covering for his boy in Texas. 

This was another Bush screw up that me me truly resent ever voting for him. 

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2009, 02:09:44 PM »
yeah, doesn't matter - you don't report a shooting when you took a vow to follow law in order to be able to have that power - and you lose all right to claim anything related to your positional powers.

they shot a guy and didn't call it in.  thye lsoe badges, period.  Prison, i could see giving them probation instead.

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2009, 02:11:31 PM »
yeah, doesn't matter - you don't report a shooting when you took a vow to follow law in order to be able to have that power - and you lose all right to claim anything related to your positional powers.

they shot a guy and didn't call it in.  thye lsoe badges, period.  Prison, i could see giving them probation instead.

They said they told the supervisor at the scene what happened. 

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2009, 02:14:21 PM »
why isn't the supervisor in prison as well?  what happened with that? 

sounds like cover your ass CYA lol.... I can't see a supervisor risking his own career and freedom that randomly.

I CAN see that being their only possible defense tho.  I tend to believe they hoped the guy would craawl away and die quietly.

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2009, 02:42:14 PM »
FREE TIGER WOODS!!!!!!!!!!!!
G

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2009, 02:59:44 PM »
Hold on Ozmo.  You dont get it.  Seriously, you dont.  Obama has been under a tremendous amount of pressure from his base to pt Cheney and Bush on trial.  However, he knows he can't do it for obvious reasons.   Whats the next best solution?  Allow KSM to do the dirty work for him. 

The lawyer for some of these bums has already said that they will make this a trial against the CIA and Bush.

They will get to rape the taxpayer of over $100 million dollars. 

They will get to get all of our intel during discovery proceedings.

They will get to file motions to dismiss based upon a variety of issues, etc.

They will get a public stage to promote their filth. 

Etc.

There is absolutely no justification for this shit.  None.  and even Holder admiotted it in the hearings with Graham.     
 

     


  KSM is going to be allowed to 
Again, this in no way supports your original contention that they (Obama and co.) care more about the terrorist than our soldiers.

If they cared more about the terrorist they'd supplying them and offering them safe haven. 

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2009, 03:04:07 PM »
Come on - Ozmo - have you not been following things for the past year? 

Obama is not completely dumb.  he cant do that. 

Instead, he gets to use KSM as a proxy to do what he cant himself. 

There is absolutely no legal, historical, or other basis for doing this. 

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2009, 03:09:14 PM »
Come on - Ozmo - have you not been following things for the past year? 

Obama is not completely dumb.  he cant do that. 

Instead, he gets to use KSM as a proxy to do what he cant himself. 

There is absolutely no legal, historical, or other basis for doing this. 

Again.

Again, again, again....

This in no way supports your original contention that they (Obama and co.) care more about the terrorist than our soldiers.

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2009, 03:17:19 PM »
Again.

Again, again, again....

This in no way supports your original contention that they (Obama and co.) care more about the terrorist than our soldiers.

I disagree completely. 

1)  We are giving terrorists rights that previously never were conferred upon them.

2)  We are closing GITMO for really no good reason other than to please "the world community".

3)  We have enacted even stricter ROE for soldiers in the field. 

4)  We are prosecuting SEALS for bogus reasons.

5)  We are engaging in nosense on issues like Ft. Hood trying to mask what really happened. 

6)  We no longer call the "war on terrororism" what is it.  Now its an overseas contingency or some crap like that. 

7)  We are coddling Iran and not supporting the freedom movement over there. 

and on and on. 

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2009, 03:27:18 PM »
Navy SEALs are heroes, prosecution is unfair
Comments

December 5, 2009
________________________ ________________________ _______



Three Navy SEALs, one born and raised in south suburban Blue Island, are to be arraigned this week on allegations they roughed up a reputed Iraqi terrorist.

You may not recall the alleged terrorist's name -- Ahmed Hashim Abed -- but you may remember the images from the 2004 horrific crime he is suspected of planning.

Four Blackwater security contractors from our country were murdered, their mutilated bodies dragged through the streets of Fallujah, Iraq. Remains of two of the men were strung up on a bridge, as Iraqis shouted anti-American slogans -- a horrifying image that flashed across computer and television screens and newspaper front pages across the world.

It's important to remember those victims' names:

Stephen S. Helvenston, Mike R. Teague, Jerko Gerald Zovko and Wesley J.K. Batalona.

It's also important to know the names of the three Navy SEALS facing charges:

Julio Huertas, formerly of Blue Island, Jonathan Keefe and Matthew McCabe.

Those men put their lives on the line for their country when they successfully captured Abed.

They are heroes, plain and simple, and it's mind-boggling that they face charges for what amounts to little more than punching Abed and remaining loyal to one another during an investigation.

Not waterboarding him.

Not torturing him.

Not a savage beating.

But a punch that left a bloody lip, according to news reports.

During wartime.

Now, they face trial by courts-martial.

The SEALs could have gone another route and dealt with the matter through an administrative proceeding. But that would have involved their admitting guilt, and they believe they have done nothing wrong.

So they have chosen the tougher route, the one that could keep their integrity and professionalism intact if they prevail.

The SEALs are receiving assistance from members of Congress, and tens of thousands of supporters have signed up on a Facebook page to support their cause.

We add our support as well.

We know this may surprise some readers of this editorial page, especially our more conservative ones.

We've long supported the rights of defendants, even suspected terrorists, no matter how vile the crimes they've been accused of, no matter what crises faces our country.

How we treat the lowest of the low, in the worst of times, defines us as a nation -- to the world and more importantly, to ourselves.

This isn't a popular position, but an important one.

In any justice system, there's the concept of prosecutorial discretion.

Fair, just prosecutors -- or superiors administering punishment -- are supposed to consider the entirety of the case, all the facts and extenuating circumstances.

That process appears to have crumbled here. What shabby treatment for men who should be honored -- not vilified.


________________________ ________________________ _________________

Even some liberals understand the craziness of this. 

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2009, 03:32:03 PM »
I disagree completely.  

1)  We are giving terrorists rights that previously never were conferred upon them.

2)  We are closing GITMO for really no good reason other than to please "the world community".

3)  We have enacted even stricter ROE for soldiers in the field.  

4)  We are prosecuting SEALS for bogus reasons.

5)  We are engaging in nosense on issues like Ft. Hood trying to mask what really happened.  

6)  We no longer call the "war on terrororism" what is it.  Now its an overseas contingency or some crap like that.  

7)  We are coddling Iran and not supporting the freedom movement over there.  

and on and on.  

All that looks like is an attempt to promote western style justice based on equal rights.  

And the #7 criticism is tragically short sighted and naive.  

And you still have yet to provide one example showing how we care more about the terrorists than our soldiers.

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2009, 03:37:19 PM »
All that looks like is an attempt to promote western style justice based on equal rights.  

And the #7 criticism is tragically short sighted and naive.  

And you still have yet to provide one example showing how we care more about the terrorists than our soldiers.


I already have.  By granting KSM and the terrorists a civilian trial, we will be obligated to provide them with intel and VAST discovery that will be a public record and maybe sent overseas to other terrorists.  This would not occur if we allowed him to plead guilty in the military tribunal as he wanted to do. 

Does this not register with you?   

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2009, 03:47:30 PM »
I already have.  By granting KSM and the terrorists a civilian trial, we will be obligated to provide them with intel and VAST discovery that will be a public record and maybe sent overseas to other terrorists.  This would not occur if we allowed him to plead guilty in the military tribunal as he wanted to do. 

Does this not register with you?   

Not in the support of your argument about caring about terrorist more than soldiers.  Not even close.  What you are spewing (caring about terrorist) is straight up propaganda and spin.   (note: I'm not saying your arguments aren't valid with in themselves.)

You are assuming that there is sensitive intel.   You are assuming everything will be a public forum.  Chances are certain aspects or sessions of the trial will be closed to protect classified information.  Even then, what could be secret after all these years?

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2009, 03:55:23 PM »

How about this article?  Ask yourself again why we are doing this when the dirt bag wanted to plead guilty in a military tribunal?

________________________ ________________________ ___

The KSM Trial Will Be an Intelligence Bonanza for al Qaeda

The government will have to choose between vigorous prosecution and revealing classified sources and methods.

By JOHN YOO


'This is a prosecutorial decision as well as a national security decision," President Barack Obama said last week about the attorney general's announcement that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and other al Qaeda operatives will be put on trial in New York City federal court.

No, it is not. It is a presidential decision—one about the hard, ever-present trade-off between civil liberties and national security.

Trying KSM in civilian court will be an intelligence bonanza for al Qaeda and the hostile nations that will view the U.S. intelligence methods and sources that such a trial will reveal. The proceedings will tie up judges for years on issues best left to the president and Congress.

Whether a jury ultimately convicts KSM and his fellows, or sentences them to death, is beside the point. The treatment of the 9/11 attacks as a criminal matter rather than as an act of war will cripple American efforts to fight terrorism. It is in effect a declaration that this nation is no longer at war.

KSM is the self-proclaimed mastermind of the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon—and a "terrorist entrepreneur," according to the 9/11 Commission report. He was the brains behind a succession of operations against the U.S., including the 1996 "Bojinka plot" to crash jetliners into American cities. Together with Osama bin Laden, he selected the 9/11 terrorists, arranged their financing and training, and ran the whole operation from abroad.

After the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan KSM eventually became bin Laden's operations chief. American and Pakistani intelligence forces captured him on March 1, 2003, in Rawalpindi, Pakistan.

Now, however, KSM and his co-defendants will enjoy the benefits and rights that the Constitution accords to citizens and resident aliens—including the right to demand that the government produce in open court all of the information that it has on them, and how it got it.

Prosecutors will be forced to reveal U.S. intelligence on KSM, the methods and sources for acquiring its information, and his relationships to fellow al Qaeda operatives. The information will enable al Qaeda to drop plans and personnel whose cover is blown. It will enable it to detect our means of intelligence-gathering, and to push forward into areas we know nothing about.


This is not hypothetical, as former federal prosecutor Andrew McCarthy has explained. During the 1993 World Trade Center bombing trial of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman (aka the "blind Sheikh"), standard criminal trial rules required the government to turn over to the defendants a list of 200 possible co-conspirators.

In essence, this list was a sketch of American intelligence on al Qaeda. According to Mr. McCarthy, who tried the case, it was delivered to bin Laden in Sudan on a silver platter within days of its production as a court exhibit.

Bin Laden, who was on the list, could immediately see who was compromised. He also could start figuring out how American intelligence had learned its information and anticipate what our future moves were likely to be.

Even more harmful to our national security will be the effect a civilian trial of KSM will have on the future conduct of intelligence officers and military personnel. Will they have to read al Qaeda terrorists their Miranda rights? Will they have to secure the "crime scene" under battlefield conditions? Will they have to take statements from nearby "witnesses"? Will they have to gather evidence and secure its chain of custody for transport all the way back to New York? All of this while intelligence officers and soldiers operate in a war zone, trying to stay alive, and working to complete their mission and get out without casualties.

The Obama administration has rejected the tool designed to solve this tension between civilian trials and the demands of intelligence and military operations. In 2001, President George W. Bush established military commissions, which have a long history that includes World War II, the Civil War and the Revolutionary War. The lawyers in the Bush administration—I was one—understood that military commissions could guarantee a fair trial while protecting national security secrets from excessive exposure.

The Supreme Court has upheld the use of commissions for war crimes. The procedures for these commissions received the approval of Congress in 2006 and 2009.

Stranger yet, the Obama administration declared last week that it would use these military commissions to try five other al Qaeda operatives held at Guantanamo Bay, including Abu Rahim al-Nashiri, the alleged planner of the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen. It should make no difference that this second group attacked a military target overseas. If anything, the deliberate attack on purely civilian targets in New York City represents the greater war crime.

For a preview of the KSM trial, look at what happened in the case of Zacarias Moussaoui, the so-called 20th hijacker who was arrested in the U.S. just before 9/11. His trial never made it to a jury. Moussaoui's lawyers tied the court up in knots.

All they had to do was demand that the government hand over all its intelligence on him. The case became a four-year circus, giving Moussaoui a platform to air his anti-American tirades. The only reason the trial ended was because, at the last minute, Moussaoui decided to plead guilty. That plea relieved the government of the choice between allowing a fishing expedition into its intelligence files or dismissing the charges.

KSM's lawyers will not save the government from itself. Instead they will press hard to reveal intelligence secrets in open court. Our intelligence agents and soldiers will be the ones to suffer.

Mr. Yoo is a law professor at the University of California, Berkeley. He was an official in the Justice Department from 2001-03 and is a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute.

________________________ ________________________ ________________________ _____

Ozmo - are you starting to get it yet? There is no reason to do this and we are giving terrorists more rights and information than they would have gotten in a military tribunal where they should be tried. 

 


 

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2009, 04:12:19 PM »
How about this article?  Ask yourself again why we are doing this when the dirt bag wanted to plead guilty in a military tribunal?

________________________ ________________________ ___

The KSM Trial Will Be an Intelligence Bonanza for al Qaeda

The government will have to choose between vigorous prosecution and revealing classified sources and methods.

By JOHN YOO


'This is a prosecutorial decision as well as a national security decision," President Barack Obama said last week about the attorney general's announcement that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and other al Qaeda operatives will be put on trial in New York City federal court.

No, it is not. It is a presidential decision—one about the hard, ever-present trade-off between civil liberties and national security.

Trying KSM in civilian court will be an intelligence bonanza for al Qaeda and the hostile nations that will view the U.S. intelligence methods and sources that such a trial will reveal. The proceedings will tie up judges for years on issues best left to the president and Congress.

Whether a jury ultimately convicts KSM and his fellows, or sentences them to death, is beside the point. The treatment of the 9/11 attacks as a criminal matter rather than as an act of war will cripple American efforts to fight terrorism. It is in effect a declaration that this nation is no longer at war.

KSM is the self-proclaimed mastermind of the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon—and a "terrorist entrepreneur," according to the 9/11 Commission report. He was the brains behind a succession of operations against the U.S., including the 1996 "Bojinka plot" to crash jetliners into American cities. Together with Osama bin Laden, he selected the 9/11 terrorists, arranged their financing and training, and ran the whole operation from abroad.

After the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan KSM eventually became bin Laden's operations chief. American and Pakistani intelligence forces captured him on March 1, 2003, in Rawalpindi, Pakistan.

Now, however, KSM and his co-defendants will enjoy the benefits and rights that the Constitution accords to citizens and resident aliens—including the right to demand that the government produce in open court all of the information that it has on them, and how it got it.

Prosecutors will be forced to reveal U.S. intelligence on KSM, the methods and sources for acquiring its information, and his relationships to fellow al Qaeda operatives. The information will enable al Qaeda to drop plans and personnel whose cover is blown. It will enable it to detect our means of intelligence-gathering, and to push forward into areas we know nothing about.


This is not hypothetical, as former federal prosecutor Andrew McCarthy has explained. During the 1993 World Trade Center bombing trial of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman (aka the "blind Sheikh"), standard criminal trial rules required the government to turn over to the defendants a list of 200 possible co-conspirators.

In essence, this list was a sketch of American intelligence on al Qaeda. According to Mr. McCarthy, who tried the case, it was delivered to bin Laden in Sudan on a silver platter within days of its production as a court exhibit.

Bin Laden, who was on the list, could immediately see who was compromised. He also could start figuring out how American intelligence had learned its information and anticipate what our future moves were likely to be.

Even more harmful to our national security will be the effect a civilian trial of KSM will have on the future conduct of intelligence officers and military personnel. Will they have to read al Qaeda terrorists their Miranda rights? Will they have to secure the "crime scene" under battlefield conditions? Will they have to take statements from nearby "witnesses"? Will they have to gather evidence and secure its chain of custody for transport all the way back to New York? All of this while intelligence officers and soldiers operate in a war zone, trying to stay alive, and working to complete their mission and get out without casualties.

The Obama administration has rejected the tool designed to solve this tension between civilian trials and the demands of intelligence and military operations. In 2001, President George W. Bush established military commissions, which have a long history that includes World War II, the Civil War and the Revolutionary War. The lawyers in the Bush administration—I was one—understood that military commissions could guarantee a fair trial while protecting national security secrets from excessive exposure.

The Supreme Court has upheld the use of commissions for war crimes. The procedures for these commissions received the approval of Congress in 2006 and 2009.

Stranger yet, the Obama administration declared last week that it would use these military commissions to try five other al Qaeda operatives held at Guantanamo Bay, including Abu Rahim al-Nashiri, the alleged planner of the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen. It should make no difference that this second group attacked a military target overseas. If anything, the deliberate attack on purely civilian targets in New York City represents the greater war crime.

For a preview of the KSM trial, look at what happened in the case of Zacarias Moussaoui, the so-called 20th hijacker who was arrested in the U.S. just before 9/11. His trial never made it to a jury. Moussaoui's lawyers tied the court up in knots.

All they had to do was demand that the government hand over all its intelligence on him. The case became a four-year circus, giving Moussaoui a platform to air his anti-American tirades. The only reason the trial ended was because, at the last minute, Moussaoui decided to plead guilty. That plea relieved the government of the choice between allowing a fishing expedition into its intelligence files or dismissing the charges.

KSM's lawyers will not save the government from itself. Instead they will press hard to reveal intelligence secrets in open court. Our intelligence agents and soldiers will be the ones to suffer.

Mr. Yoo is a law professor at the University of California, Berkeley. He was an official in the Justice Department from 2001-03 and is a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute.

________________________ ________________________ ________________________ _____

Ozmo - are you starting to get it yet? There is no reason to do this and we are giving terrorists more rights and information than they would have gotten in a military tribunal where they should be tried.  

 


  


It's not about the KSM trial.  If that's your only example you can give that supports your assertion that they care more about terrorists than soldiers you are not giving it any support at all.  I already suggested other benefits of trying him in a civilian court.  Also, you got to look at the other fact that BUSH NEVER did anything with KSM when he had years and the alleged power to do so.

So now i wonder if its even was possible.

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2009, 04:17:16 PM »
I really dont know what more you want. 

They just made a decision to give terrorists rights in civilian courts that they never had and have imposed stricter ROE on soldiers in the field and you dont see that as who they are moving towards in this equation?

Do you think Holder is going to come out and say it directly?  Look at their actions, not their words. 

THIS HAS NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE! 


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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2009, 04:21:21 PM »
I really dont know what more you want. 

They just made a decision to give terrorists rights in civilian courts that they never had and have imposed stricter ROE on soldiers in the field and you dont see that as who they are moving towards in this equation?

Do you think Holder is going to come out and say it directly?  Look at their actions, not their words. 

THIS HAS NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE! 



What has never been done before?  Strict ROE's?

So you think because they have strict ROE's that they are doing it because they care more about terrorist than soldiers?

If you really believe that 3333 you are a CT nut job.  Because that's exactly how CT'ers compute things. 

I strongly urge you to read Mike Shermer's book "Why people believe in weird things" It talks about how people come up with conclusions based flawed logic like that. 

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2009, 04:22:28 PM »
333333  you are a pretty smart guy.  I am really surprised you think like that.  I really believe you are letting your bias cloud your objectivity.

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2009, 04:22:47 PM »
Whatever, watch the video.  THIS HAVE NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE AND HOLDER ADMITTED IT!  


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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2009, 04:24:02 PM »
333333  you are a pretty smart guy.  I am really surprised you think like that.  I really believe you are letting your bias cloud your objectivity.

Ozmo - did you watch the video?  Holder admitted this has never been done before.  Ever! 


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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2009, 04:25:04 PM »
Whatever, watch the video.  THIS HAVE NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE AND HOLDER ADMITTED IT!  



Ok so what?  We also have never been in this type of situation before either!  And changing the ROE's might be what's needed at this time.  Who knows, but that doesn't in anyway, as well as the KSM thing support the argument (which is CT like) that we care more about the terrorist than our soldiers.

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2009, 04:26:25 PM »
Ozmo - did you watch the video?  Holder admitted this has never been done before.  Ever! 



Also, we have never been in a war like this either.  Still, why didn't BUSH do ti when in power? 

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2009, 04:27:27 PM »
Ok so what?  We also have never been in this type of situation before either!  And changing the ROE's might be what's needed at this time.  Who knows, but that doesn't in anyway, as well as the KSM thing support the argument (which is CT like) that we care more about the terrorist than our soldiers.

Did you watch the video?

Even Holder can not give a reason why.   

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2009, 04:28:54 PM »
Did you watch the video?

Even Holder can not give a reason why.   

So then it must be because they care about terrorists more than our soldiers?   :P