Author Topic: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist  (Read 8101 times)

Kazan

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2009, 04:31:20 PM »
What this is doing is setting precidence that terrorism or made made disasters or what ever you want to call it, is a law enforcement matter and not a military matter. Clinton decide to treat it as such and all that did was allow Al Queda to opperate with imputinty in their safe haven of afghanistan.
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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2009, 04:44:53 PM »
Did you watch the video?

Even Holder can not give a reason why.   

Also there are some unanswered questions.  Why didn't BUSH put KSM in front of a military tribunal?  He had plenty of time. 

The protocol they are establishing here, attacks on civilian targets are to be prosecuted in civilian courts and military targets to be tried in military courts doesn't seems prudent.  An organized attack by members of a terrorist groups should be tried as military combatants in a military court, i agree. 

Why are they doing that?   What's the purpose?  Does it have anything to do with why BUSH never did anything?

Still, not in anyway supporting the silly contention that we care more about the terrorist than our soldiers.   

Do you think BUSH cared about our soldiers?

Using your logic I can make a sound case that he didn't, but instead cared more about the insurgents.  Do you think Reagan cared about our soldiers more than the terrorists?   I can make a sound case, based on your flawed logic that he didn't, but instead cared more about the terrorists.

Skip8282

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2009, 04:45:27 PM »
Perhaps "care about" are not the right words, but at the very least, the facts of this case are suggestive that those in charge are giving more credence to the word of a shitbag terrorist than our own soldiers.

Based solely on this guys claim that the soldier(s) punched him, they were going to put paperwork in these soldiers files that would follow them for the rest of their careers.  Nevermind the fact that the soldiers say it never happened.  Never mind the fact that there are no witnesses and no proof.  Never mind the fact that the claim only came much later when the guy wasn't even in custody...

This is just disgusting.

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2009, 04:47:06 PM »
What this is doing is setting precidence that terrorism or made made disasters or what ever you want to call it, is a law enforcement matter and not a military matter. Clinton decide to treat it as such and all that did was allow Al Queda to opperate with imputinty in their safe haven of afghanistan.

The only way not to allow AQ to operate in Afghanistan without impunity was to invade it.  The american people would have never gone for it at that time.  It took 9/11 to do that. 

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2009, 04:49:51 PM »
Perhaps "care about" are not the right words, but at the very least, the facts of this case are suggestive that those in charge are giving more credence to the word of a shitbag terrorist than our own soldiers.

Based solely on this guys claim that the soldier(s) punched him, they were going to put paperwork in these soldiers files that would follow them for the rest of their careers.  Nevermind the fact that the soldiers say it never happened.  Never mind the fact that there are no witnesses and no proof.  Never mind the fact that the claim only came much later when the guy wasn't even in custody...

This is just disgusting.

Well then the military personal file and record system and how things stay on your record whether it's base on real facts or accusation may need to change.

that may be where the problem is.

Because it would seem to me, if a fellow soldier said they were punched by another soldier then that too would stay on their record.


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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2009, 04:55:17 PM »
Only if the soldier who did the punching agreed to it.  Otherwise, just like this case, it goes to trial (court martial).

Except in this case there is no evidence other than the terrorists claim.

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2009, 05:01:41 PM »
Only if the soldier who did the punching agreed to it.  Otherwise, just like this case, it goes to trial (court martial).

Except in this case there is no evidence other than the terrorists claim.

So then they are just going the judicial motions.  And there hasn't been any decision.  Sounds like another fear based alarmist story about something that hasn't happened yet.  And based on this "hasn't happened yet story and isn't likely to happen", some people have concluded that we care more about the terrorists than our soldiers.

Makes no sense.

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2009, 05:03:56 PM »
The only way not to allow AQ to operate in Afghanistan without impunity was to invade it.  The american people would have never gone for it at that time.  It took 9/11 to do that. 

Al Queda attacked US targets over and over again the Cole, Kobar towers, US embasies in Africa, WTC 93. There are even those that believe Al Queda was involved in the Blackhawk down incident in Somailia. IMHO Clinton was more worried about getting re-elected than he was dealing with the problem. What did no retaliation accomplish? Nothing it only emboldened them, there is a reason we have a POTUS, he is supposed to be the leader and make the tuff decisions even if they are not popular.
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Skip8282

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2009, 05:12:50 PM »
Yes and no Ozmo.  Nothing tangible has happened yet such as fine or reprimand.  IMO, nothing likely will as I believe they will be found not guilty.

But, there are intangibles that take a very real toll.  The morale of the soldiers, the fact that they even have to go through this circus, the fact that these types of allegations may affect future or current promotional eligibility, soldiers left in limbo about their leadership.

And what about the next time these guys are out in the thick of battle?  Do they have to be constantly questioning every thing they're doing  because who knows what kind of accusations they'll have to defend themselves against next?

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2009, 05:19:40 PM »
Al Queda attacked US targets over and over again the Cole, Kobar towers, US embasies in Africa, WTC 93. There are even those that believe Al Queda was involved in the Blackhawk down incident in Somailia. IMHO Clinton was more worried about getting re-elected than he was dealing with the problem. What did no retaliation accomplish? Nothing it only emboldened them, there is a reason we have a POTUS, he is supposed to be the leader and make the tuff decisions even if they are not popular.

It's easy to say that after the fact.  No president, repub or dem is going to invade a country because it has a terrorist organization operating in it without a good enough cause.  Otherwise we'd always be at war and people don't go for that.

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2009, 05:22:08 PM »
Yes and no Ozmo.  Nothing tangible has happened yet such as fine or reprimand.  IMO, nothing likely will as I believe they will be found not guilty.

But, there are intangibles that take a very real toll.  The morale of the soldiers, the fact that they even have to go through this circus, the fact that these types of allegations may affect future or current promotional eligibility, soldiers left in limbo about their leadership.

And what about the next time these guys are out in the thick of battle?  Do they have to be constantly questioning every thing they're doing  because who knows what kind of accusations they'll have to defend themselves against next?

In this modern military they face that kind of bull crap anyway, if not from stuff like this then from stuff like slapping a soldier in basic training.  But i agree, it does affect morale negatively. 

Kazan

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2009, 05:22:52 PM »
It's easy to say that after the fact.  No president, repub or dem is going to invade a country because it has a terrorist organization operating in it without legit cause.  Otherwise we'd always be at war and people don't go for that.

So attacking US targets over and over and killing US service men isn't reason enough?
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OzmO

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #62 on: December 05, 2009, 05:26:17 PM »
So attacking US targets over and over and killing US service men isn't reason enough?

Nope.

Like i said it's easy to say that after the fact of 9/11. 

Plus he didn't "do nothing". 


Kazan

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #63 on: December 05, 2009, 06:16:47 PM »
Nope.

Like i said it's easy to say that after the fact of 9/11. 

Plus he didn't "do nothing". 



What did he do? Launch a couple missles at camps that may or may not have been occupied? Blow up an aspirin factory in Iraq? The US had Bin Laden dead to rights atleast 3 times, the Sudan was going to hand him over. The CAI had him in the cross hairs of a predator, the Clinton team wouldn't give the go ahead to fire. Massoud of the Afhgan northern alliance had good intel and was ready to kill or caputer Bin Laden, the Clinton lawyers put the cabash on that. And what did Massoud get for his trouble? Killed by Al Queda. Maybe I have a different outlook on this than most, but when you keep attacked you can only turn the other cheek so many times. The case could have been made, but it wasn't.
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BodyProSite

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2009, 06:20:41 PM »
Kaz  you are waisting your time trying to explain common sense to a lib

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #65 on: December 05, 2009, 06:31:09 PM »
Kaz  you are waisting your time trying to explain common sense to a lib

Well your common sense would have you going to war over anything.  Your common sense would have americans everywhere fighting everywhere.  We've already seen what irresponsible wars do to for us in Iraq.  Not a dam thing but cost.

Your only retort to BUSH's initial failings as president is to blame Clinton for it.  Pretty pathetic along with the knee jerk reaction to anyone who would question anything non neo-con or conservative as being a big bad "lib."

It's easy to say after the fact that we should have invaded Afghanistan.  What was happening wasn't a good enough reason to invade Afghanistan.  Period.  If America commits itself to war, it has to have it's people behind it.  Especially  in a place like Afghanistan where every foreign army has lost and by the looks of it we aren't doing to well after 8 years.  thank you idiot leader BUSH for his ignorant "decider" decisions.   Fortunately, for war mongering idiots, AQ gave the USA the motivation it needed on 9/11.

And look now, AQ still exists, and we've been there 8 years.

OzmO

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2009, 06:32:51 PM »
What did he do? Launch a couple missles at camps that may or may not have been occupied? Blow up an aspirin factory in Iraq? The US had Bin Laden dead to rights atleast 3 times, the Sudan was going to hand him over. The CAI had him in the cross hairs of a predator, the Clinton team wouldn't give the go ahead to fire. Massoud of the Afhgan northern alliance had good intel and was ready to kill or caputer Bin Laden, the Clinton lawyers put the cabash on that. And what did Massoud get for his trouble? Killed by Al Queda. Maybe I have a different outlook on this than most, but when you keep attacked you can only turn the other cheek so many times. The case could have been made, but it wasn't.

You said he did nothing.  I said that wasn't true.  You listed some things he did do.

As i said in the other post.  You can't go to war in a place like Afghanistan without the American people behind it.  

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2009, 06:33:18 PM »
you just showed your lack of common sense by assuming i supported but and the rep party  lol  but once again i am not surprised i dont support some of what bush did, but obama has fucked more shit up than bush could have ever done in 8 years

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2009, 06:35:50 PM »
i never said i supported 8 years of war, or bushes findings of no wmds  dip shit  but just go on ahead and assume away since you are obviously the one with all the common sense

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2009, 06:36:52 PM »
you just showed your lack of common sense by assuming i supported but and the rep party  lol  but once again i am not surprised i dont support some of what bush did, but obama has fucked more shit up than bush could have ever done in 8 years

Well we will see in 8 years.  So far, in 1 year, Obama is dealing with the mess BUSH left office with.

Don't mis-understand me,  I am not an Obama supporter.

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2009, 06:39:52 PM »
What did he do? Launch a couple missles at camps that may or may not have been occupied? Blow up an aspirin factory in Iraq? The US had Bin Laden dead to rights atleast 3 times, the Sudan was going to hand him over. The CAI had him in the cross hairs of a predator, the Clinton team wouldn't give the go ahead to fire. Massoud of the Afhgan northern alliance had good intel and was ready to kill or caputer Bin Laden, the Clinton lawyers put the cabash on that. And what did Massoud get for his trouble? Killed by Al Queda. Maybe I have a different outlook on this than most, but when you keep attacked you can only turn the other cheek so many times. The case could have been made, but it wasn't.

Occasionally people bring up that Sudan thing.  Here's something from Factcheck.org
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_bill_clinton_pass_up_a_chance_1.html

Q:
Did Bill Clinton pass up a chance to kill Osama bin Laden?
Was Bill Clinton offered bin Laden on "a silver platter"? Did he refuse? Was there cause at the time?
A:
Probably not, and it would not have mattered anyway as there was no evidence at the time that bin Laden had committed any crimes against American citizens.
Let’s start with what everyone agrees on: In April 1996, Osama bin Laden was an official guest of the radical Islamic government of Sudan – a government that had been implicated in the attacks on the World Trade Center in 1993. By 1996, with the international community treating Sudan as a pariah, the Sudanese government attempted to patch its relations with the United States. At a secret meeting in a Rosslyn, Va., hotel, the Sudanese minister of state for defense, Maj. Gen. Elfatih Erwa, met with CIA operatives, where, among other things, they discussed Osama bin Laden.

It is here that things get murky. Erwa claims that he offered to hand bin Laden over to the United States. Key American players – President Bill Clinton, then-National Security Adviser Sandy Berger and Director of Counterterrorism Richard Clarke among them – have testified there were no "credible offers" to hand over bin Laden. The 9/11 Commission found "no credible evidence" that Erwa had ever made such an offer. On the other hand, Lawrence Wright, in his Pulitzer Prize-winning "The Looming Tower," flatly states that Sudan did make such an offer. Wright bases his judgment on an interview with Erwa and notes that those who most prominently deny Erwa's claims were not in fact present for the meeting.

Wright and the 9/11 Commission do agree that the Clinton administration encouraged Sudan to deport bin Laden back to Saudi Arabia and spent 10 weeks trying to convince the Saudi government to accept him. One Clinton security official told The Washington Post that they had "a fantasy" that the Saudi government would quietly execute bin Laden. When the Saudis refused bin Laden’s return, Clinton officials convinced the Sudanese simply to expel him, hoping that the move would at least disrupt bin Laden’s activities.

Much of the controversy stems from claims that President Clinton made in a February 2002 speech and then retracted in his 2004 testimony to the 9/11 Commission. In the 2002 speech Clinton seems to admit that the Sudanese government offered to turn over bin Laden:
Clinton: So we tried to be quite aggressive with them [al Qaeda]. We got – well, Mr. bin Laden used to live in Sudan. He was expelled from Saudi Arabia in 1991, then he went to Sudan. And we'd been hearing that the Sudanese wanted America to start dealing with them again. They released him. At the time, 1996, he had committed no crime against America, so I did not bring him here because we had no basis on which to hold him, though we knew he wanted to commit crimes against America. So I pleaded with the Saudis to take him, 'cause they could have. But they thought it was a hot potato and they didn't and that's how he wound up in Afghanistan.
Clinton later claimed to have misspoken and stated that there had never been an offer to turn over bin Laden. It is clear, however, that Berger, at least, did consider the possibility of bringing bin Laden to the U.S., but, as he told The Washington Post in 2001, "The FBI did not believe we had enough evidence to indict bin Laden at that time, and therefore opposed bringing him to the United States." According to NewsMax.com, Berger later emphasized in an interview with WABC Radio that, while administration officials had discussed whether or not they had ample evidence to indict bin Laden, that decision "was not pursuant to an offer by the Sudanese."

So on one side, we have Clinton administration officials who say that there were no credible offers on the table, and on the other, we have claims by a Sudanese government that was (and still is) listed as an official state sponsor of terrorism. It’s possible, of course, that both sides are telling the truth: It could be that Erwa did make an offer, but the offer was completely disingenuous. What is clear is that the 9/11 Commission report totally discounts the Sudanese claims. Unless further evidence arises, that has to be the final word.

Ultimately, however, it doesn’t matter. What is not in dispute at all is the fact that, in early 1996, American officials regarded Osama bin Laden as a financier of terrorism and not as a mastermind largely because, at the time, there was no real evidence that bin Laden had harmed American citizens. So even if the Sudanese government really did offer to hand bin Laden over, the U.S. would have had no grounds for detaining him. In fact, the Justice Department did not secure an indictment against bin Laden until 1998 – at which point Clinton did order a cruise missile attack on an al Qaeda camp in an attempt to kill bin Laden.

We have to be careful about engaging in what historians call "Whig history," which is the practice of assuming that historical figures value exactly the same things that we do today. It's a fancy term for those "why didn't someone just shoot Hitler in 1930?" questions that one hears in dorm-room bull sessions. The answer, of course, is that no one knew quite how bad Hitler was in 1930. The same is true of bin Laden in 1996.

Correction: We originally answered this question with a flat 'yes' early this week, based on the account in "The Looming Tower," but an alert reader pointed out to us the more tangled history laid out in the 9/11 Commission report. We said flatly that Sudan had made such an offer. We have deleted our original answer and are posting this corrected version in its place.


Kazan

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2009, 06:40:22 PM »
You said he did nothing.  I said that wasn't true.  You listed some things he did do.

As i said in the other post.  You can't go to war in a place light Afghanistan without the American people behind it. 

Well I'll give you this most Americans didn't take the threat of Al Queda seriuosly until after 9/11 even though that was the second attempt at the WTC. But then again my opinion differs from most on how a war should be conducted. I believe if you are going to go to war, it is total war, scorched earth.
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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2009, 06:42:38 PM »
Well I'll give you this most Americans didn't take the threat of Al Queda seriuosly until after 9/11 even though that was the second attempt at the WTC. But then again my opinion differs from most on how a war should be conducted. I believe if you are going to go to war, it is total war, scorched earth.

I agree.  But we should be very shrewd about IF and when we go to war.

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2009, 06:43:49 PM »
its been a year and he hasnt slowed down any of bushes affects on america, hell he has quadrupled the debt and def, and we wont even talk bout u.e. a year is adequate time to at least slow down the direction bush took us in, instead we are in high gear to a ( as obama said FUNDIMENTAL TRANFORMATION into a socialist country.  obama even said his self ( if you want to know what i am about, just look who i surround my self with)   well he has surrounded hiself with dozens or proven self proclaimed socialists, with that said as bad as bush may have been , it could never compare to creating the united socialist states of america

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Re: Navy Seals Could Face Year in Prison Over Alleged Punching of Terrorist
« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2009, 06:46:10 PM »
i agree war isnt war if you walk on egg shells being policaly correct