Author Topic: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...  (Read 3901 times)

kcballer

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Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« on: December 09, 2009, 03:27:10 PM »
We have an opportunity to become the world leader in green technology but we are holding ourselves back and China will once again over lap us and we will become even less of a manufacturing country than we are now.

It's the quietest story in environmentalism. In less than a year, China went from a polluting megapower to an up-and-coming clean-tech contender that promises to outpace America. Both countries responded to the recession by authorizing big stimulus plans with significant green components: 34% of China's stimulus money was green, compared with just 12% of funds in the U.S. That's good for the world — as the low-cost-manufacturing champion, China might be able to churn out enough solar panels and wind turbines at a price the rest of us will happily pay. And the green stimulus is a sign that China, after staying mostly silent on global warming for years, realizes that its old model of pollute then clean up simply isn't sustainable. For the U.S., however, China's gains may mean losses at home. A recent report by the Breakthrough Institute warned that the U.S. could be lapped by Asia in the clean-tech race.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1945379_1944307_1944333,00.html#ixzz0ZEl1O5Sj
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Soul Crusher

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2009, 03:30:03 PM »
Watch this understand that you have adopted a new fundamentalist religion KC.


kcballer

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2009, 03:37:29 PM »
Environmental technologies are the future.  China knows it, why else is it sinking money at a massive level into it? For someone who adores China so much i'm a little surprised by your reaction. 
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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2009, 03:43:59 PM »
Environmental technologies are the future.  China knows it, why else is it sinking money at a massive level into it? For someone who adores China so much i'm a little surprised by your reaction. 

If its market based, adds value to the end user, and not requiring new taxes, new regulations and the customer wants it, great.   

OzmO

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2009, 04:52:45 PM »
Unfortunately things don't always work out that perfect.


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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2009, 05:24:24 PM »
If its market based, adds value to the end user, and not requiring new taxes, new regulations and the customer wants it, great.   

well for the most part new technologies will more than end up paying for themselves...I'm all for green technology provided most of the funding comes from the oil companies and not governments!

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2009, 05:26:41 PM »
Unfortunately things don't always work out that perfect.



Thats the problem, they have been talking about this since the 70's and have developed absolutley nothing that can replace oil in terms of cost and ease of use.
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Kazan

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2009, 05:27:38 PM »
well for the most part new technologies will more than end up paying for themselves...I'm all for green technology provided most of the funding comes from the oil companies and not governments!

Why would oil companies foot the bill? They would be cutting their own throats
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the_steevo_uk

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2009, 05:30:40 PM »
Why would oil companies foot the bill? They would be cutting their own throats

not true actually, lets be fair the oil aint gonna last forever, if they can hold a monopoly on a new technology and make money out of it they will. Theyre not going to go down without a plan B...at least not most of them!!

Kazan

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2009, 05:36:21 PM »
not true actually, lets be fair the oil aint gonna last forever, if they can hold a monopoly on a new technology and make money out of it they will. Theyre not going to go down without a plan B...at least not most of them!!

Well that depends on if you buy into the whole peak oil thing
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GigantorX

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2009, 06:20:18 PM »
not true actually, lets be fair the oil aint gonna last forever, if they can hold a monopoly on a new technology and make money out of it they will. Theyre not going to go down without a plan B...at least not most of them!!

True, and oil companies actually do plenty of research into alternative fuels and even battery technology. Oil companies see your point and have been branching out for quite some time. Funny thing, Chevron owns a ton of battery patents that expire in 2013 and guess who sold them those patents for a pittance?

Green tech is great...but the problems stem from the govt. central planning it, subsidizing losing tech (like ethanol) or otherwise giving into lobbying pressures and encouraging sectors and destroying others regardless of feasibility.

If the govt. wants to cut certain taxes, create and fund research and research centers like they are doing with the battery tech center in Michigan than you can count me in.

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009, 06:24:38 PM »
Also, the govt. and pie in the sky people and lobbyists are trying to push "Green Tech" as some pixie dust stuff that will save us all. Put a ton of windmills here and subsidize some solar panels there and tell the auto companies to build cars that get 100mpg by 2015 and run on fairy dust and everything will be ok. This kind of talk is the bullshit propaganda and it needs to stop.

Getting us off oil will take exploring for our own fossil fuels and natural gas (an actual survey hasn't been done in 30 years), nuclear power, battery tech, build-outs for NatGas fueling stations, recharging stations better building materials and a very real change in the way we think and do things.

Kazan

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2009, 06:27:14 PM »
The problem I  have with the peak oil theory is that gas prices go way up and then low and behold they find some ginat oil reserve of the coast of Brazil or something.
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gcb

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2009, 04:42:26 AM »
Watch this understand that you have adopted a new fundamentalist religion KC.



I'm wondering why China doesn't see environmentalism as an evil are you?

Kazan

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2009, 05:53:01 AM »
I'm wondering why China doesn't see environmentalism as an evil are you?

Have you ever seen China? Half the country is a giant waste dump. And what exactly are you refering to? They aren't going to sign on to any agreement that is going to hamstring their economy. The Chines government will supress or crush anything that threatens said government.
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Soul Crusher

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2009, 06:00:43 AM »
I'm wondering why China doesn't see environmentalism as an evil are you?

China is not engaging in fantasy land nonsense and economy killing garbage like Obama wants us to. 

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2009, 06:28:20 AM »
Going green is fine.PURPOSELY destroying the economy while doing it is assanine.

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2009, 06:33:08 AM »
Going green is fine.PURPOSELY destroying the economy while doing it is assanine.

Exactly, if a technology can be developed to replace oil, great. But you don't say we are going to do it even if we don't have the technology\ability to do so. Just the fact that the government knows this and still pushes this shit is mind boggling
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kcballer

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2009, 12:44:03 PM »
I am actually surprised that this is a good debate with agreement on a lot of common things.

I guess where we differ is my view that without some government intervention we just end up kicking the tires on this thing and never make any progress.

As for GeorgeWhorewells supports of Michigan being an epicenter of this.  I totally agree and actually Michael Moore wrote an interesting piece for the huffington post about what to do with the Michigan economy during this time of recession.  It's worth a read and a novel idea. 

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2009, 12:48:05 PM »
I am actually surprised that this is a good debate with agreement on a lot of common things.

I guess where we differ is my view that without some government intervention we just end up kicking the tires on this thing and never make any progress.

As for GeorgeWhorewells supports of Michigan being an epicenter of this.  I totally agree and actually Michael Moore wrote an interesting piece for the huffington post about what to do with the Michigan economy during this time of recession.  It's worth a read and a novel idea. 



Here is the problem KC - the govt cant forever subsidize this stuff.  at some point it has to stand or fail on its own in the marketplace. 

If some guy comes to me with a "green product" and can add value, save me money, etc, I'm all for that. 

However, if i am getting worse stuff for a higher price, that is also being subsidized with tax dollars, no thanks! 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2009, 12:48:48 PM »
Here is the problem KC - the govt cant forever subsidize this stuff.  at some point it has to stand or fail on its own in the marketplace. 

If some guy comes to me with a "green product" and can add value, save me money, etc, I'm all for that. 

However, if i am getting worse stuff for a higher price, that is also being subsidized with tax dollars, no thanks!

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2009, 01:39:38 PM »
I am actually surprised that this is a good debate with agreement on a lot of common things.

I guess where we differ is my view that without some government intervention we just end up kicking the tires on this thing and never make any progress.

As for GeorgeWhorewells supports of Michigan being an epicenter of this.  I totally agree and actually Michael Moore wrote an interesting piece for the huffington post about what to do with the Michigan economy during this time of recession.  It's worth a read and a novel idea. 



There is a reason why companies, especially tech and car companies, like to set up shop in Michigan with things concerning HQ's and R&D. There is a ton of unused capital in the state from people to places and such.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2011, 07:48:06 AM »
Skip to comments.

Report: Mass. 'Clean Energy' Plant Closing After $58 Million in State Aid
CNS News ^ | 1/12/11 | Susan Jones




A clean energy company is closing its factory in Massachusetts, just two years after it opened the solar plant with about $58-million in taxpayer subsidies, the Boston Globe reported. Evergreen Solar calls itself a victim of weak demand and competition from cheaper suppliers in China.

The newspaper describes Evergreen Solar's closing a major hit to Democratic Governor Deval Patrick’s efforts to make Massachusetts a hub of the emerging clean-energy industry.

"The administration persuaded Evergreen to build at Devens with a package of grants, land, loans, and other aid originally valued at $76 million. The company ended up taking about $58 million, one of the largest aid packages Massachusetts has provided to a private company," the newspaper reported.

Gov. Patrick, a VIP at Evergreen's 2008 ribbon cutting, was heavily criticized by his rivals in 2010 for providing so much public aid to a company during tight fiscal times.

The Evergreen closing will eliminate 800 jobs in the commonwealth, the Globe reported.


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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2011, 06:52:02 AM »
Green | News


http://campustechnology.com/Articles/2011/03/17/End-of-a-Green-Dream.aspx

The End of a Green Dream
A $5.7 billion plan to rebuild a California community college system with an emphasis on green technology falters.



•By Andrew Barbour
•03/17/11

It sounded too good to be true -- and it was. An ambitious plan to make Los Angeles Community College District a national leader in green technology and renewable energy appears to be in shambles after an investigative report by the Los Angeles Times has uncovered widespread mismanagement and waste. Larry Eisenberg, the executive director for facilities, planning, and development who oversaw the project, was fired by the LACCD board on March 9.

Editor's Note: The cover story of CT's April issue, “Lean Green Machines,” contains a profile of LACCD's green initiatives. The issue went to print before CT became aware of the LA Times report.

The district's green goals were part of a massive program to rebuild LA's nine-campus community college system. Funding totaling $5.7 billion was secured through a series of bond measures passed between 2001 and 2007. Accounting for interest, the final bill to taxpayers will likely surpass $11 billion.

According to a vision developed by Eisenberg, LACCD was to have become a model of clean energy, generating enough wind, solar, and geothermal energy to supply all its electricity needs -- and to sell its surplus.

In its six-part investigative series, however, the LA Times showed that both the vision and its implementation were seriously flawed, resulting in waste amounting to nearly $10 million. David Beaulieu, president of the District Academic Senate, also found fault with Eisenberg's plans for sustainable energy projects, calling them "wildly unrealistic" in a Senate newsletter.

Among the findings of the LA Times investigative report:
•Eisenberg estimated that it would cost $975 million to take all nine campuses off the grid. An engineering consultant believed the final bill would be much higher -- $1.9 billion. As a point of reference, LACCD spent less than $8 million on power bills in 2010.
•LACCD had insufficient space on its nine campuses even to house all the generating equipment that would be necessary to provide the district's energy via renewable sources.
•Three solar power arrays were scrapped once it became clear that the chosen locations sat on top of seismic faults.
•Plans to generate wind power on a large scale neglected the fact that average winds at most of the campuses are too light to generate much power.
•The district committed approximately $4 million to develop solar and wind energy projects that never made it beyond blueprints.
•At Southwest College, LACCD spent $1.2 million on a parking lot shaded by solar panels, but abandoned the project when it was only half completed.
According to the LA Times, other proposals from Eisenberg included:

•A $98 million investment in hydrogen fuel-cell equipment that has never been put into commercial operation
•A $59 million investment in untried hydrogen storage devices
•A $78 million investment in batteries, in expectation of stocking up on solar power during the day for use at night. With the technology currently available, such an approach is considered by most experts to be too costly to be viable.
•$78 million in geothermal and wind projects, despite the fact that geothermal systems are not effective in a temperate climate like that of Los Angeles
Given the high level of publicity that LACCD received for its green initiatives, there is a danger that these revelations will damage the credibility of other green projects on campuses nationwide. It is important to note that the problems besetting LACCD went far beyond the district's green initiatives. The LA Times articles exposed issues at every level of governance from the trustees down, and involved all types of construction ranging from a crooked clock tower to heating units installed upside down. Indeed, in April 2009, Eisenberg wrote an e-mail to his construction chief noting that, "Our new buildings are fundamentally flawed.... We cannot control lighting systems, HVAC systems, security systems, building management systems, etc."

About the Author

Andrew Barbour is executive editor of Campus Technology.



Soul Crusher

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Re: Some ask why i support investment in green technology...
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2011, 02:23:55 PM »
Even U.N. Admits That Going Green Will Cost $76 Trillion
Fox News ^ | 7/6/11 | Dan Gainor


________________________ ________________________ _________________



Two years ago, U.N. researchers were claiming that it would cost “as much as $600 billion a year over the next decade” to go green. Now, a new U.N. report has more than tripled that number to $1.9 trillion per year for 40 years.

So let's do the math: That works out to a grand total of $76 trillion, over 40 years -- or more than five times the entire Gross Domestic Product of the United States ($14.66 trillion a year). It’s all part of a “technological overhaul” “on the scale of the first industrial revolution” called for in the annual report. Except that the U.N. will apparently control this next industrial revolution.

The new 251-page report with the benign sounding name of the “World Economic and Social Survey 2011” is rife with goodies calling for “a radically new economic strategy” and “global governance.”

Throw in possible national energy use caps and a massive redistribution of wealth and the survey is trying to remake the entire globe. The report has the imprimatur of the U.N., with the preface signed by U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon – all part of the “goal of full decarbonization of the global energy system by 2050.”

Make no mistake, much of this has nothing to do with climate.

The press release for the report discusses the need “to achieve a decent living standard for people in developing countries, especially the 1.4 billion still living in extreme poverty, and the additional 2 billion people expected worldwide by 2050.” That sounds more like global redistribution of wealth than worrying about the earth’s thermostat.

That’s because it is. The report goes on and says “one half of the required investments would have to be realized in developing countries.” In other words, $38 trillion would go to the developing world.


(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...