Graven Images

[Butterbean]

To worship a statue (or painting or whatever) of a person's idea of God is biblically sinful, but do you think it's wrong that such images or paintings exist if you don't worship them?  

Normally I don't really think negatively about pictures representing Christ/God etc...like I just posted that nativity scene one....

but I am involved in a ministry (where there are people of all levels of faith including no faith) that displays a "picture" during many talks of what someone painted intending to represent Jesus and it does make me wonder sometimes thinking some people may give the paint and paper some type of reverence thinking that it is more "Him" than a representation.

Anyone else have thoughts for or against these images are are you pretty neutral?

[ToxicAvenger]

i can speak for the one religion i sorta know about...

strictly prohibited in islam . having said that the idiots that went of the deep end about some islamic cartoons need to found and castrated....

i dont think anywhere in the koran it says to go out and wage war against cartoonists

[Migs]

but I am involved in a ministry (where there are people of all levels of faith including no faith)

huh?

i'm nuetral

[OzmO]

I remember about 15 years ago going to a catholic mass and after the mass, a statue of Mary was set up in front of the pews and another shorter mass was given to Mary.

[Butterbean]

I remember about 15 years ago going to a catholic mass and after the mass, a statue of Mary was set up in front of the pews and another shorter mass was given to Mary.

Do people pray to or worship the statues?

[Butterbean]

i can speak for the one religion i sorta know about...

strictly prohibited in islam . having said that the idiots that went of the deep end about some islamic cartoons need to found and castrated....

i dont think anywhere in the koran it says to go out and wage war against cartoonists

Toxy, what is the deal w/the Dome of the Rock?  I've heard people say that some muslims pray to a rock but am unsure of the truth of that statement.

[OzmO]

Do people pray to or worship the statues?

They will tell they are asking Mary to pray for them.  Makes little sense to me and think many fundamental christians would find what i saw offensive.  But that's their problem. 

[Butterbean]

They will tell they are asking Mary to pray for them.  Makes little sense to me and think many fundamental christians would find what i saw offensive.  But that's their problem. 

Maybe some would be?? but I don't really think they'd be offended as much as thinking they were misguided or something (if they claim the bible as their Holy book) as it is not biblical to pray to either a statue or Mary who is a dead person and was not divine according to the bible.  I asked a lady once if she prayed to Mary and she said she "Honored" her...so she didn't really say that she prayed to her I guess.

[MMC78]

To worship a statue (or painting or whatever) of a person's idea of God is biblically sinful, but do you think it's wrong that such images or paintings exist if you don't worship them?  

Normally I don't really think negatively about pictures representing Christ/God etc...like I just posted that nativity scene one....

but I am involved in a ministry (where there are people of all levels of faith including no faith) that displays a "picture" during many talks of what someone painted intending to represent Jesus and it does make me wonder sometimes thinking some people may give the paint and paper some type of reverence thinking that it is more "Him" than a representation.

Anyone else have thoughts for or against these images are are you pretty neutral?

The Jewish theological idea regarding graven images has several implications:
1. Separation - Idols were heavily worshiped by nearly all other religions at the time.  A prohibition against this kept the Jews distinct from their neighbors.
2. Reverence through abstraction - the idea of god in Judaism is a formless, genderless being that is above physical depiction or description.  Any attempt to depict god would necessarily fall short of a real depiction and would be 'insulting' to the deity.

This prohibition is one of the major reasons why Jews will not accept the hellenic concept of Jesus as a god.  He is by definition the ultimate graven image.

[Butterbean]

The Jewish theological idea regarding graven images has several implications:
1. Separation - Idols were heavily worshiped by nearly all other religions at the time.  A prohibition against this kept the Jews distinct from their neighbors.
2. Reverence through abstraction - the idea of god in Judaism is a formless, genderless being that is above physical depiction or description.  Any attempt to depict god would necessarily fall short of a real depiction and would be 'insulting' to the deity.

This prohibition is one of the major reasons why Jews will not accept the hellenic concept of Jesus as a god.  He is by definition the ultimate graven image.

Thanks MMC....That is really interesting!  


So some Jews do not believe that God will ever take on human form?  
What about the OT prophecies implying him having a human body?

Weren't the Jews looking for a Messiah though and some were hoping Jesus was Him?  But they were looking for more of a Political Savior right?  And when He died before doing that they rejected Him I thought?

Some people have theorized the antichrist will be Jewish which assumes that they would accept him (a human [later possessed by Satan]) as Messiah (God).  Some people believe he will be Muslim.  If the Jews would not accept the possibility of God in human form then they would not follow/accept antichrist.

[MMC78]

Thanks MMC....That is really interesting!  


So some Jews do not believe that God will ever take on human form?  
What about the OT prophecies implying him having a human body?

I'd have to see these prophecies to comment.

Weren't the Jews looking for a Messiah though and some were hoping Jesus was Him?  But they were looking for more of a Political Savior right?  And when He died before doing that they rejected Him I thought?

They were expecting a non-divine political/military leader, from the line of King David.  The expectation was that the messiah would free Israel from Roman occupation.

Some people have theorized the antichrist will be Jewish which assumes that they would accept him (a human [later possessed by Satan]) as Messiah (God).  Some people believe he will be Muslim.  If the Jews would not accept the possibility of God in human form then they would not follow/accept antichrist.

It depends on whether the anti-christ claims to be divine.  If he claims to be god, then Jews wouldn't follow him.

[Butterbean]

I'd have to see these prophecies to comment.

OLD TESTAMENT PROPHECIES OF CHRIST QUOTED IN THE GOSPELS:

Christ was to be of king David’s Family (Matthew 22:44; Mark 12:36; Luke 1:69,70; 20:42-44; John 7:42; 2nd Samuel 7:12-16; Psalm 89:3-4; 110:1; 132:11; Isaiah 9:6,7; 11:1).
Christ was to be Born of a Virgin (Matthew 1:23; Isaiah 7:14).
Christ was to be Born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:6; John 7:42; Micah 5:2).
Christ would Sojourn in Egypt (Matthew 2:15; Hosea 11:1).
Christ would Live in Galilee (Matthew 4:15; Isaiah 9:1,2)
Christ would Live at Nazareth (Matthew 2:23; Isaiah 11:1).
Christ’s Coming would be Announced by an Elijah-like Herald (Matthew 3:3; 11:10-14; Mark 1:2-3; Luke 3:4-6; 7:27; John 1:23; Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; 4:5).
Christ’s Coming would occasion the Massacre of Bethlehem’s Children (Matthew 2:18; Genesis 35:19-20; 48:7; Jeremiah 31:15).
Christ would Proclaim a Jubilee to the World (Luke 4:18-19; Isaiah 58:6; 61:1).
Christ’s Mission would include Gentiles (Matthew 12:18-21; Isaiah 42:1-4).
Christ’s Ministry would be one of Healing (Matthew 8:17; Isaiah 53:4).
Christ would Teach by Parables (Matthew 13:14, 15, 35; Isaiah 6:9-10; Psalm 78:2).
Christ would be Disbelieved and Rejected by the Rulers (Matthew 15:8, 9; 21:42; Mark 7:6, 7; 12:10 11; Luke 20:17; John 12:38-40; 15:25; Psalm 69:4; 118:22; Isaiah 6:10; 29:13; 53:1).
Christ would make a Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem (Matthew 21:5; John 12:13-15; Isaiah 62:11; Zechariah 9:9; Psalm 118:26).
Christ would be like a Smitten Shepherd (Matthew 26:31; Mark 14:27; Zechariah 13:7).
Christ would be Betrayed by a Friend for 30 Pieces of Silver (Matthew 27:9-10; John 13:18; Zechariah 11:12-13; Psalm 41:9).
All the Disciples Forsook Him and Fled (Matthew 26:56; Psalm 38:11; Isaiah 63:3).
They would Cast Lots for Christ’s Garments (Matthew 27:35; John 19:24; Psalm 22:18).
Christ’s Hands, Feet and Side would be Pierced (Matthew; Psalm 22:16; Zechariah 12:10).
Christ would be Given Vinegar and Gall (Matthew 27:34; John 19:29; Psalm 69:21).
Christ’s Bone’s would Not be Broken (John 19:36; Exodus 12:46; Numbers 9:12; Psalm 34:20).
Christ would Die with Malefactors (Luke 22:37; Isaiah 53:9, 12).
Christ’s Dying Words were Foretold (Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34; Luke 23:46; Psalm 22:1; 31:5). 
Christ would be Buried by a Rich Man (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60; fact stated, prophecy not quoted)
Christ would Rise from the Dead the Third Day (Matthew12:40; Luke 24:46).  No particular passage is quoted from the Old Testament for this.  That Christ would rise from the dead is definitely quoted in Acts 2:25-32, from Psalm 16:10-11.  Jesus said it was Written that He would rise the third day (Luke 24:46).  Jesus must have had in mind Hosea 6:2 and Jonah 1:7, and Isaac being released from death the third day (Genesis 22:4).
Christ’s Rejection would be followed by the Destruction of Jerusalem and Great Tribulation for the Jews (Matthew 24:15; mark 13:14; Luke 21:20; Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12: 1, 11).
(from jesus_is_savior.com)

They were expecting a non-divine political/military leader, from the line of King David.  The expectation was that the messiah would free Israel from Roman occupation.

I guess I never heard they were looking for a non-divine Messiah.  Are there some scriptures for that?

It depends on whether the anti-christ claims to be divine.  If he claims to be god, then Jews wouldn't follow him.

Excellent.  Because he will claim to be God.   

Thessalonians 2:1-4

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

[MMC78]

OLD TESTAMENT PROPHECIES OF CHRIST QUOTED IN THE GOSPELS:

Christ was to be of king David’s Family (Matthew 22:44; Mark 12:36; Luke 1:69,70; 20:42-44; John 7:42; 2nd Samuel 7:12-16; Psalm 89:3-4; 110:1; 132:11; Isaiah 9:6,7; 11:1).
Christ was to be Born of a Virgin (Matthew 1:23; Isaiah 7:14).
Christ was to be Born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:6; John 7:42; Micah 5:2).
Christ would Sojourn in Egypt (Matthew 2:15; Hosea 11:1).
Christ would Live in Galilee (Matthew 4:15; Isaiah 9:1,2)
Christ would Live at Nazareth (Matthew 2:23; Isaiah 11:1).
Christ’s Coming would be Announced by an Elijah-like Herald (Matthew 3:3; 11:10-14; Mark 1:2-3; Luke 3:4-6; 7:27; John 1:23; Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; 4:5).
Christ’s Coming would occasion the Massacre of Bethlehem’s Children (Matthew 2:18; Genesis 35:19-20; 48:7; Jeremiah 31:15).
Christ would Proclaim a Jubilee to the World (Luke 4:18-19; Isaiah 58:6; 61:1).
Christ’s Mission would include Gentiles (Matthew 12:18-21; Isaiah 42:1-4).
Christ’s Ministry would be one of Healing (Matthew 8:17; Isaiah 53:4).
Christ would Teach by Parables (Matthew 13:14, 15, 35; Isaiah 6:9-10; Psalm 78:2).
Christ would be Disbelieved and Rejected by the Rulers (Matthew 15:8, 9; 21:42; Mark 7:6, 7; 12:10 11; Luke 20:17; John 12:38-40; 15:25; Psalm 69:4; 118:22; Isaiah 6:10; 29:13; 53:1).
Christ would make a Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem (Matthew 21:5; John 12:13-15; Isaiah 62:11; Zechariah 9:9; Psalm 118:26).
Christ would be like a Smitten Shepherd (Matthew 26:31; Mark 14:27; Zechariah 13:7).
Christ would be Betrayed by a Friend for 30 Pieces of Silver (Matthew 27:9-10; John 13:18; Zechariah 11:12-13; Psalm 41:9).
All the Disciples Forsook Him and Fled (Matthew 26:56; Psalm 38:11; Isaiah 63:3).
They would Cast Lots for Christ’s Garments (Matthew 27:35; John 19:24; Psalm 22:18).
Christ’s Hands, Feet and Side would be Pierced (Matthew; Psalm 22:16; Zechariah 12:10).
Christ would be Given Vinegar and Gall (Matthew 27:34; John 19:29; Psalm 69:21).
Christ’s Bone’s would Not be Broken (John 19:36; Exodus 12:46; Numbers 9:12; Psalm 34:20).
Christ would Die with Malefactors (Luke 22:37; Isaiah 53:9, 12).
Christ’s Dying Words were Foretold (Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34; Luke 23:46; Psalm 22:1; 31:5). 
Christ would be Buried by a Rich Man (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60; fact stated, prophecy not quoted)
Christ would Rise from the Dead the Third Day (Matthew12:40; Luke 24:46).  No particular passage is quoted from the Old Testament for this.  That Christ would rise from the dead is definitely quoted in Acts 2:25-32, from Psalm 16:10-11.  Jesus said it was Written that He would rise the third day (Luke 24:46).  Jesus must have had in mind Hosea 6:2 and Jonah 1:7, and Isaac being released from death the third day (Genesis 22:4).
Christ’s Rejection would be followed by the Destruction of Jerusalem and Great Tribulation for the Jews (Matthew 24:15; mark 13:14; Luke 21:20; Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12: 1, 11).
(from jesus_is_savior.com)

Thanks.  I didn't see anything in there that said he would be divine or equivalent to god though.

I guess I never heard they were looking for a non-divine Messiah.  Are there some scriptures for that?

This is a central theological division between modern Christianity and Judaism.  For the Jews, they never had anything in the OT that indicated that the messiah would be divine.  God in man form went against some very core beliefs, e.g. our earlier discusssion of graven images and an 'abstract' god. The Muslims also do not believe that the messiah is or will be divine.  It's a belief unique to modern Christianity.

Excellent.  Because he will claim to be God.   

Thessalonians 2:1-4

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

I thought that the anti-christ was just a very charismatic, very evil person.  But I don't know a whole lot about the NT.

[Butterbean]

Thanks.  I didn't see anything in there that said he would be divine or equivalent to god though.


This is a central theological division between modern Christianity and Judaism.  For the Jews, they never had anything in the OT that indicated that the messiah would be divine.  God in man form went against some very core beliefs, e.g. our earlier discusssion of graven images and an 'abstract' god. The Muslims also do not believe that the messiah is or will be divine.  It's a belief unique to modern Christianity.

That is really interesting MMC78!  I had never realized that Jews or some Jews do not believe the Messiah of the Old Testament would be divine.

Do they have explanations of the following verses other than these relate to the Messiah?

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


Jeremiah 23: 5-6
"The days are coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.

In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD Our Righteousness.


Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

Zechariah 12:10
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

[Colossus_500]

I can remember a few years ago attending mass with my father-in-law.  During the service I noticed the different statues of Christ during his life.  I learned that is known to Catholics as the stations of of the Cross.   Before I even knew what this was I was moved emotionally at what I was seeing.  I don't believe that I was worshiping the small works of art themselves, but I was in awe of the thought that these images were capturing for me.  My thoughts at that time were, "I am so unworthy of what Christ has done.  That He would love me so much that He would lay down his life for all of the sins that I have committed, and anyone who would accept his gift."  After viewing these images, I just bowed my head and begin to pray, thanking God for His awesome love! 

Great thread, Buddyro!   

[Butterbean]

I can remember a few years ago attending mass with my father-in-law.  During the service I noticed the different statues of Christ during his life.  I learned that is known to Catholics as the stations of of the Cross.   Before I even knew what this was I was moved emotionally at what I was seeing.  I don't believe that I was worshiping the small works of art themselves, but I was in awe of the thought that these images were capturing for me.  My thoughts at that time were, "I am so unworthy of what Christ has done.  That He would love me so much that He would lay down his life for all of the sins that I have committed, and anyone who would accept his gift."  After viewing these images, I just bowed my head and begin to pray, thanking God for His awesome love! 

Great thread, Buddyro!   

Good stuff thanks Ro  

I've seen that type of timeline in stained glass.

[OzmO]

Maybe some would be?? but I don't really think they'd be offended as much as thinking they were misguided or something (if they claim the bible as their Holy book) as it is not biblical to pray to either a statue or Mary who is a dead person and was not divine according to the bible.  I asked a lady once if she prayed to Mary and she said she "Honored" her...so she didn't really say that she prayed to her I guess.

Taking a statue of a person propping it up in a church, kneeling to it and praying to it seems disrespectful to God.  But it's all in what you believe.