Thank God he's okay!

[timfogarty]

All you fags that think a govt run healthcare program is such a great thing.....visit a VA hospital sometime. 

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0501.longman.html

[The Showstoppa]

obviously I meant that we should provide things essential to peoples basic rights of LIFE, liberty and pursuit of happyness. its plain to see that the health of a persons body is very closely tied into that persons right to LIFE, as well as the other two since without life there can be no liberty or happyness.

You highlight life, but what about liberty and the pursuit of happiness for other people?  Why should their rights be infringed upon?  People have access to excellent healthcare in this country, it is their choice whether to secure employment that will pay for it. 

[calfzilla]

You highlight life, but what about liberty and the pursuit of happiness for other people?  Why should their rights be infringed upon?  People have access to excellent healthcare in this country, it is their choice whether to secure employment that will pay for it. 

Zing!!!

[timfogarty]

They run it so good it's in the red 

mostly under republican administrations

[The Showstoppa]

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0501.longman.html

Can you cite any other evidence to support this?  The last time I visited one (yes personally, not reading online articles) was in 2002 and it was still woefully lacking.  Overworked staff, subpar facilities, long waits, etc.....

[timfogarty]

You highlight life, but what about liberty and the pursuit of happiness for other people?  Why should their rights be infringed upon?  People have access to excellent healthcare in this country, it is their choice whether to secure employment that will pay for it. 

cept if you have a pre-existing condition, even one completely unrelated to the disease you may some day develop.

[timfogarty]

Can you cite any other evidence to support this?  The last time I visited one (yes personally, not reading online articles) was in 2002 and it was still woefully lacking.  Overworked staff, subpar facilities, long waits, etc.....

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2007/12/10/gvsa1210.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/08/eveningnews/main2243606.shtml

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/21/AR2005082101073.html

[tbombz]

You highlight life, but what about liberty and the pursuit of happiness for other people?  Why should their rights be infringed upon?  People have access to excellent healthcare in this country, it is their choice whether to secure employment that will pay for it. 

what rights are being infringed upon exactly? 

[The Showstoppa]

cept if you have a pre-existing condition, even one completely unrelated to the disease you may some day develop.

Totally agree....but tackling some of the problems with the insurance industry is not the same as revamping the entire healthcare system and putting it into a goverments hands who have shown themselves incompetent in so many areas, for so many years.

[Bix]

Totally agree....but tackling some of the problems with the insurance industry is not the same as revamping the entire healthcare system and putting it into a goverments hands who have shown themselves incompetent in so many areas, for so many years.

The right not to have your money stolen to be part of the ponzi scheme.

[calfzilla]

Totally agree....but tackling some of the problems with the insurance industry is not the same as revamping the entire healthcare system and putting it into a goverments hands who have shown themselves incompetent in so many areas, for so many years.

Exactly.  For example: Health insurance companies are denying coverage based on pre existing conidition.  Instead of getting rid of private insurance and socializing healthcare, just regulate the industry by saying they can no longer deny based on that.  Quite simple really. 

[timfogarty]

Exactly.  For example: Health insurance companies are denying coverage based on pre existing conidition.  Instead of getting rid of private insurance and socializing healthcare, just regulate the industry by saying they can no longer deny based on that.  Quite simple really. 

ok, well, that's pretty much the current senate bill.  it contains no public option, no optional buy-in to medicare, but it does mandate you to have medical insurance, so therefore you must buy it from one of the monopolies.  and those monopolies have no incentives to lower cost.

[che]

, it is their choice whether to secure employment that will pay for it. 

Are you serious,man ?

[Bix]

ok, well, that's pretty much the current senate bill.  it contains no public option, no optional buy-in to medicare, but it does mandate you to have medical insurance, so therefore you must buy it from one of the monopolies.  and those monopolies have no incentives to lower cost.

This "Must Buy" will be challenged all the way to the Supreme Court if need be and there it will be struck down.

[tbombz]

This "Must Buy" will be challenged all the way to the Supreme Court if need be and there it will be struck down.

i totally agree on that 

[Coach is Back!]

If this bill is so great then why is congress exempt from it?

[timfogarty]

If this bill is so great then why is congress exempt from it?

they're not.

most of the HCR is about what insurance companies can and cannot do.   If a public option or medicare buy-in (for people over 55) makes it into the final bill, then like everyone else, members of congress could choose to keep their existing coverage, or buy into the public option or medicare.

[Voice of Doom]

Voluntary tax system is the answer folks.  
You don't want to pay into welfare, fine, but you cant use it if you fall on hard times.
You dont want to pay into a people's healthcare plan, fine then you buy private insurance and if you get hurt you're on your own.
You don't want to pay into unemployment, fine but if you lose your job, you're on your own.
You don't want to pay into a social security program, fine then you can't collect it when you retire.  
You don't want to pay for America's miltary endeavors overseas, fine but if you get your ass stuck in another country in a pinch...you're on your own.
You don't want to pay for public schooling, fine but your kids can't go for free.
You don't want to pay for public roads, fine but you can't use them or you pay a toll when you do.
You don't want to pay for libraries, parks and other public institutions, fine but you can't use them or pay each time you do.

Nobody should be forced to do that which goes against their heart - Cherokee Nation

A voluntary tax system means that politicians have to actually work to get you to sign on OR make programs within the funding that the public allows.

All taxation is theft - Josiah Warren
Taxation is the price we pay for civilization - Chief Justice Earl Warren


there are solutions kiddies

[tbombz]

Voluntary tax system is the answer folks.  
You don't want to pay into welfare, fine, but you cant use it if you fall on hard times.
You dont want to pay into a people's healthcare plan, fine then you buy private insurance and if you get hurt you're on your own.
You don't want to pay into unemployment, fine but if you lose your job, you're on your own.
You don't want to pay into a social security program, fine then you can't collect it when you retire.  
You don't want to pay for America's miltary endeavors overseas, fine but if you get your ass stuck in another country in a pinch...you're on your own.
You don't want to pay for public schooling, fine but your kids can't go for free.
You don't want to pay for public roads, fine but you can't use them or you pay a toll when you do.
You don't want to pay for libraries, parks and other public institutions, fine but you can't use them or pay each time you do.

Nobody should be forced to do that which goes against their heart - Cherokee Nation

A voluntary tax system means that politicians have to actually work to get you to sign on OR make programs within the funding that the public allows.

All taxation is theft - Josiah Warren
Taxation is the price we pay for civilization - Chief Justice Earl Warren


there are solutions kiddies

im trying to think of a principle that would make this unfeasable. i only see a stipulation that people would be forced to pay taxes for everything they use/will use..(potentially)..police, fire, military, roads...

[Coach is Back!]

they're not.

most of the HCR is about what insurance companies can and cannot do.   If a public option or medicare buy-in (for people over 55) makes it into the final bill, then like everyone else, members of congress could choose to keep their existing coverage, or buy into the public option or medicare.

Yes Tim, they will be. They will not be on the same programs they are forcing us to use.

[The Ugly]

Voluntary tax system is the answer folks.  
You don't want to pay into welfare, fine, but you cant use it if you fall on hard times.
You dont want to pay into a people's healthcare plan, fine then you buy private insurance and if you get hurt you're on your own.

Come on. Those who abuse this shit the most pay the least, and we won't even plug that up. Hell, we can't even limit abuse to OUR freeloaders. Government would never give productive citizens the option to choose.

We're crippled by a fake fucking sensitivity to the "needy."

[Voice of Doom]

You dont want to pay for for firemen services, fine you can't call them when your house if on fire
same with Police.

Of course the government isn't going to let you "choose"...government, like religion is based upon force and control and requires your energy (money) to exist to feed the elites and priests.  What are they going to do...get real jobs? 
In the old days authority would simply kill you or bust you up like the worker's movements in the early 19th century.  These days they are more 'civilized' and must use a propoganda system (media) to 'manufacture consent' of the masses.  They do this by selling products.  The product can be a good ole boy from Texas aiming to set right the moral wrong doings of the previous administration...it could be a black man with a muslim name aiming to set right the moral wrongs of the previous administration...it could be lingerie for 13 year old girls sold at Victoria's Secret Pink (wink wink)...it could be welfare for the lazy...it could be the soap opera of professional sports...it could be the rantings of fox news or Huffingtonpost.com...it could be magic protein powders to build muscle...or a new credit card...or Dances with wolves in 3D (I meant Avatar)...or Pepsi...or a Hemi engine...

A voluntary tax system is the only reasonable and logical evolutionary step forward for human society until we can get off this gravity well of a planet where top down pyramid style authoritarian structures simply won't be able to function effectively.  Until then, they will chase you around the earth to make sure that you render to Ceasar your pound of flesh.

Interestly...tax control and tax rebellion are the only real fears of the elite.   Right/left popular movements can all be dealt with in the long view but take away the beast's food and it starves.  Make no mistake, they will break their own laws to stop a popular tax rebellion.  The English sailed an army to the new world while in the middle of losing a war to Napolean to stop it and that was 300 years ago.  What do you think they would do now?

everybody's got to fight to be free - Tom Petty

[chaos]

what rights are being infringed upon exactly? 

My right to punch wiggers in the face at random.

[Coach is Back!]

Then you should go down to Main St. In Huntington, you'd have a field day!

[chaos]

Then you should go down to Main St. In Huntington, you'd have a field day!

I tend to avoid that place.