Traditional Asian Martial Arts or MMA?

[GRACIE JIU-JITSU]

no, the graice's wanted a sport with rules where their system would be superior.

 I'm sorry but you're wrong.

[drkaje]

There's no superior martial art. Comparing traditional to MMA really doesn't make a lot of sense because their applications aren't the same.

A real fight is still likely to favor mental preparedness with just a touch of luck. Black belts get their asses kicked all the time in bar brawls because they don't train with much contact and overly prepare for predetermined moves.

MMA rules do favor Jujitsu but I really wouldn't want to be tied up on the ground too long in an actual fight.

[GRACIE JIU-JITSU]

 BJJ also self defense.

 Here in Baghdad teaching hand to hand combat to the troops.

[GRACIE JIU-JITSU]

There's no superior martial art. Comparing traditional to MMA really doesn't make a lot of sense because their applications aren't the same.

A real fight is still likely to favor mental preparedness with just a touch of luck. Black belts get their asses kicked all the time in bar brawls because they don't train with much contact and overly prepare for predetermined moves.

MMA rules do favor Jujitsu but I really wouldn't want to be tied up on the ground too long in an actual fight.

 Well... there's a difference in black belts. there's the guy that is  desperate to get a black belt.
 He would just pay to pass the tests, most of bs academy do that.
 And the guy that has been training for years.
 I've seeing some blue belts give black belts a hard time.


 Check it out this video, has nothing to do with black belts.
 Kids having fun. 5 to 9 years old.

 

[HTexan]

 I'm sorry but you're wrong.

i'm not sorry but im right.

[noworries]

no, the graice's wanted a sport with rules where their system would be superior.

Way off.  They specifically taught (at least back at the beginning in the US) and let it be known the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was designed for self defense in the street.  When we had classes they had us wear different clothes and shoes because you never know when you will need to defend yourself.  At the beginning it hard to get fights anywhere because of the lack of rules.  They wanted to prove to everyone that Gracue jiu Jitsu was superior to all other martial arts.  That is why they created the UFC.

[GRACIE JIU-JITSU]

i'm not sorry but im right.

 Please continue.

Inspired by vale tudo competitions in Brazil, the UFC held its first competition in Denver, Colorado in 1993. Showcasing fighters of different proficiencies—including boxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling and Muay Thai, among others—the UFC sought to discover which martial art was the most effective in a real fight.

 The concept for a tournament purporting to discover the world's best fighting style came from Art Davie, an advertising executive based in southern California.[5] Davie met Rorion Gracie in 1991 while researching martial arts for a marketing client. Gracie operated a Brazilian jiu-jitsu school in Torrance, California and the Gracie family had a long history of vale tudo matches—a precursor of mixed martial arts—in Brazil. Davie became Gracie's student.

In 1992, inspired by the Gracies in Action video-series produced by the Gracies and featuring Gracie jiu-jitsu defeating various martial-arts masters, Davie proposed to Rorion Gracie and John Milius an eight-man, single-elimination tournament with a title of War of the Worlds. The tournament would feature martial artists from different disciplines facing each other in no holds barred combat to see which martial art was truly the best.

The television broadcast featured kickboxers Patrick Smith and Kevin Rosier, savate fighter Gerard Gordeau, karate expert Zane Frazier, shootfighter Ken Shamrock, sumo wrestler Teila Tuli, boxer Art Jimmerson and 175 lb. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt Royce Gracie—younger brother of UFC co-founder Rorion Gracie who was hand-picked by Rorion himself to represent his family in the competition. The show became an instant success, drawing 86,592 television subscribers on pay-per-view.

The show proposed to find an answer for sports fans to questions such as: "Can a wrestler beat a boxer?"[11] As with most martial arts at the time, fighters typically had skills in just one discipline and had little experience against opponents with different skills.[12] Royce Gracie's submission skills proved the most effective in the inaugural tournament, earning him the first ever UFC tournament championship.[13]
Vale tudo fighter Marco Ruas won the UFC 7 tournament.

However, the show was not intended to be part of a series. "That show was only supposed to be a one-off," Dana White later said. "It did so well on pay-per-view they decided to do another, and another. Never in a million years did these guys think they were creating a sport."[14]

With no weight classes, fighters often faced significantly larger or taller opponents. For example, Keith "The Giant Killer" Hackney faced Emmanuel Yarborough at UFC 3 with a 9 in (23 cm) height and 400 pounds (180 kg) weight disadvantage.[15] Many martial artists believed that technique could overcome these size disadvantages, and that a skilled fighter could use an opponent's size and strength against him. With the 175 lb (79 kg) Royce Gracie winning three of the first four events, the UFC quickly proved that size does not always determine the outcome of the fight.

 Emergence of more rules

Although UFC used the "There are no rules!" tagline in the early 1990s, the UFC did in fact operate with limited rules. There was no biting, no eye gouging, and the system frowned on (but allowed) techniques such as hair pulling, headbutting, groin strikes and fish-hooking.



 Watch this.
 

[suckmymuscle]

Traditional Asian Martial Arts or MMA?
 

  MMA. Kung Fu and other Asian martial arts like karate don't work in a real fight or only work in very specific situations. Consider the katas from karate. Try to use those flowery movements in a real fight and you'll see what will happen to you. No wonder the tournaments for these martial arts are full of rules, because the competitor would be at serious disadvantage fighting against someone who doesen't abide by these rules.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[Tyr]

Pat Miletich on training cops in MMA


Question
It would be easy to stick the barrel of my gun down the throat of a skilled fighter if he were to attack you.


ANSWER: Who are you kidding? You think that people announce when they are going to attack a police officer. When officers are attacked they are always surprised and very seldom ready to react. Don’t mislead officers by saying you would almost always win the fight because you are in possession of a firearm.


Imagine a street wise fighter attacking you when you’re not ready. He throws you on your head and begins to pound you in the face. You’re saying you would, while being punched in the face, remove your hand from protecting your head, reach down and pull out your gun and shove it down the attackers throat. Not likely. You'll be suprised how self preservation insticts take over in a real fight. Protecting your head from being caved in usually comes first.


If you have been trained how to first stop the takedown, then defend yourself on the ground if needed and escape back to your feet, you would then be able to pull your weapon and take care of business. I don't know about you, but I would rather understand how to survive the fight first and depend on the weapon as a last case scenario. Putting your faith in a weapon you might never have the chance to pull is odds I would never bet on. Officers have said to me that they would die for their families. I simply tell them to train hard so they can live for their families.



Officers who are trained in MMA fighting techniques are much more confident and less likely to panic under a stressful situation. Using common sense on how to stay relaxed in a verbal confrontation and the skills of controlling subjects used in MMA fighting helps save lives. This is our main goal, right?

[drkaje]

 MMA. Kung Fu and other Asian martial arts like karate don't work in a real fight or only work in very specific situations. Consider the katas from karate. Try to use those flowery movements in a real fight and you'll see what will happen to you. No wonder the tournaments for these martial arts arfull of rules, because the competitor would be at serious disadvantage fighting against someone who doesen't abide by these rules.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

You forgot the cat-like yell, SMM.

I'd easily agree some styles are more adaptable for street fighting.

[pellius]

To Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, it is truly pointless arguing this with guys on the net. Most have never been in an actual fight and those that have did not fight a skilled fighter. We use to get these arguments all the time back in the early 1990s when Jiu-Jitsu first came out. Of course we settled that argument the way the Gracie's had settled it for generations. We simply fought. And we won. We won all the time. As a one year blue belt, I fought a golden glove boxer and choked him out in a couple of minutes. And how did the fight go? You already know. It went the way it always went back in those days when people were unfamiliar with ground fighting and BJJ. You clinched, went to the ground, mounted, drops some bombs, they turned on their stomach, you choked them out. There was a point where I felt that all the average person needed to know was how to mount and how to choke. You didn't even have to know a take down because once you clinch eventually you both fall to the ground. Watch any street fight that goes for more than 30 seconds.

[big L dawg]

[pellius]

When talking about superiority of styles it is absolutely foolish to think that one is no better than the other. Is boxing the same as Muy Thai? So knowing how to kick and defend kicks mean nothing? Traditional aikido, the way it is practiced in America, is absolutely worthless as a fighting art. It has become so watered down you be better off training via mail order.

I was there at the original Torrance Academy in California where Rorion started his first school. I got to witness first hand Rorion developing the concept for the UFC. To say the rules favored Jiu-Jitsu would be absolutely CORRECT. The rules were no rules. No gloves, no weight classes, no time limits. You could pull hair, do a boot dance on a grounded opponent, pinch, head butt... things like groin strikes were more of a matter of sportsmanship and if the audience would tolerant it it would also be allowed. The less rules there are the more is favors Jiu-Jitsu.

Royce Gracies was by far the least skilled Gracie. Rorion brought him over from Brasil when he was only 17 yo. He was only a blue belt at the time but Rorion needed help with his school. Those in the know joked That Royce holds the record as being the only Jiu-Jitsu fighter to go from blue-belt to black-belt. I personal watched Royler and especially Rickson school Royce like a little boy. Unlike his brothers, Royce didn't have to go through the Vale Tudo ringer that the rest of them did. When Rorion recruited Rigan and Jean-Jacques Machado to help Royce train for his fight with Kerr they both told me with their own lips how surprise they were at Royce's low level. And Royce was already a MMA champion. They said that if he was at their school he would be an advanced Purple belt.

So though Royce wasn't anywhere near the top Gracie is was enough. It was more than enough. The only one we were worried about was Ken Shamrock because he was bigger, stronger, a much better athlete but mostly because he knew ground fighting and was very good at it. Top of the food chain at his style of ground fighting. But it wasn't enough for that pathetically weak and skinny Royce Gracie because of the superiority of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

Things have changed much over the last almost 20 years when Rorion revolutionized martial arts through out the world. Pure Jiu-Jitus isn't enough to anymore. But I will tell you this, if you don't know Jiu-Jitsu, if you don't know how to defend against Jiu-Jitsu and familiar with their attacks and submissions you have no chance.

And I know many of you will be turned off to this type of talk but I wish we were all sitting in a room together so that my fellow board member, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and myself can show you first hand. That was how the Gracie's gained their reputation in Brasil, America and throughout the world. They simply demonstrated to you first hand the superiority of their style. We can talk and argue all we want but the bottom line is when we face off man to man.

[Deadpool]

train in both then

[Stavios]

lmao !

great tips there 

[pellius]

train in both then

The problem with TMA was the lack of no holds bar sparring like they do in boxing/MuyThai. They wanted lots of paying member and many quickly found that a lot of men like the idea of being a fighter but not the reality of being a fighter which requires a lot of hard training and getting punched and kicked in the face.

If you want to learn self defense that will get through most street encounters then BJJ. If you want to be a bad ass and hold your own with other trained fighters then it's BJJ, muy thai, boxing, wrestling. But then now you are a full time athlete.

[big L dawg]

lmao !

great tips there 

 

[drkaje]

Very few people here are comparing apples to apples. No one, who is reasonable, will deny BJJ and other grappling styles are more suited to an MMA contest. A good portion of that advantage is due to format. Putting grapplers in contests with muay thai rules might make them look a little foolish as well.

It's really hard to say how often a skilled fighter initiates the conflict in street conditions. It's more people with something to prove who will start shit.

BJJ is probably to blame for the TapOut t-shirt proliferation. 

[NarcissisticDeity]

When talking about superiority of styles it is absolutely foolish to think that one is no better than the other. Is boxing the same as Muy Thai? So knowing how to kick and defend kicks mean nothing? Traditional aikido, the way it is practiced in America, is absolutely worthless as a fighting art. It has become so watered down you be better off training via mail order.

I was there at the original Torrance Academy in California where Rorion started his first school. I got to witness first hand Rorion developing the concept for the UFC. To say the rules favored Jiu-Jitsu would be absolutely CORRECT. The rules were no rules. No gloves, no weight classes, no time limits. You could pull hair, do a boot dance on a grounded opponent, pinch, head butt... things like groin strikes were more of a matter of sportsmanship and if the audience would tolerant it it would also be allowed. The less rules there are the more is favors Jiu-Jitsu.

Royce Gracies was by far the least skilled Gracie. Rorion brought him over from Brasil when he was only 17 yo. He was only a blue belt at the time but Rorion needed help with his school. Those in the know joked That Royce holds the record as being the only Jiu-Jitsu fighter to go from blue-belt to black-belt. I personal watched Royler and especially Rickson school Royce like a little boy. Unlike his brothers, Royce didn't have to go through the Vale Tudo ringer that the rest of them did. When Rorion recruited Rigan and Jean-Jacques Machado to help Royce train for his fight with Kerr they both told me with their own lips how surprise they were at Royce's low level. And Royce was already a MMA champion. They said that if he was at their school he would be an advanced Purple belt.

So though Royce wasn't anywhere near the top Gracie is was enough. It was more than enough. The only one we were worried about was Ken Shamrock because he was bigger, stronger, a much better athlete but mostly because he knew ground fighting and was very good at it. Top of the food chain at his style of ground fighting. But it wasn't enough for that pathetically weak and skinny Royce Gracie because of the superiority of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

Things have changed much over the last almost 20 years when Rorion revolutionized martial arts through out the world. Pure Jiu-Jitus isn't enough to anymore. But I will tell you this, if you don't know Jiu-Jitsu, if you don't know how to defend against Jiu-Jitsu and familiar with their attacks and submissions you have no chance.

And I know many of you will be turned off to this type of talk but I wish we were all sitting in a room together so that my fellow board member, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and myself can show you first hand. That was how the Gracie's gained their reputation in Brasil, America and throughout the world. They simply demonstrated to you first hand the superiority of their style. We can talk and argue all we want but the bottom line is when we face off man to man.

Great post ! Royce has said on many occasions he was no where near as good as Rickson who many consider the best BJJ guy of the family and even in the world 

great points about being lost without BJJ in this day and age it's integral to being a complete fighter and looking back it's pretty amazing what Royce accomplished with a bare minimum of rules and no weight classes even though he had a clear advantage in the ground game.

[Rami]

Its' all WWE. It's not real fighting. It has rules. Real fighting doesn't have rules.

[Deadpool]

lol. to tools in cagefighter hats and tapouT shirts

[pellius]

When Rickson broke from Rorion and started his own school in West LA that's when I left the Torrance academy in 1993 to train with Rickson. In addition to the group class I took a one hour one on one private lesson with Rickson once a week. I did this for two years. I alway showed up early so that I could watch Rickson's private lesson with Eric Paulson who was one of the few at the time doing real fighting in Japan. Spending so much time with Rickson I got to know him pretty well. There's a lot of exaggeration and myths regarding him. Like he's some kind of god. He's not. He's a human being just like the rest of us and will, and is, growing old and weak and will eventually die. But this much I will say, though Rickson is no god when it comes to Jiu-Jitsu he has been touched by the hand of god.

Rickson had a tremendous impact on my life and was a huge influence and inspiration to me. Not so much as a fighter as I was never a great champion. In fact, I'm not sure if Rickson is all that great of a teacher as he has never produce a single world champion that he trained from the ground up during his 20 year stay in the US. But his main influence on me, and for those who cared about such things, was how a man should live. To consider what kind of man you are? What kind of man should you aspire to be?

It was a pleasure and an honor to be part of that original rag tag bunch of students at Rickson's first school in that battered, run down, old warehouse where we had to lay out the mats and fold them back up before and after every class. Those were good days then when Jiu-Jitsu was just some obscure sport that nobody cared about and we just did it out of love. Little did we know how much it would change the world of martial arts.
  

[big L dawg]

Its' all WWE. It's not real fighting. It has rules. Real fighting doesn't have rules.

very true....any move/hold that leaves the ability to bite your opponent or still allows you the ability to rip there eyes out are worthless in a real fight....

[pellius]

Its' all WWE. It's not real fighting. It has rules. Real fighting doesn't have rules.

UFC is as close to real fighting as you will ever get. Their training is the best available for a fighter today. Sure there are rules in the UFC but out in the streets they are just as free to ignore those rules as you are. If you doubt it, try to fight a serious MMA fighter in the street.

After you get your ass kicked you can come back here later and thank me.

[pellius]

very true....any move/hold that leaves the ability to bite your opponent or still allows you the ability to rip there eyes out are worthless in a real fight....

Well, my friend, there are a lot of moves that doesn't leave you the ability to bite your opponent or rip out there eyes. And I've been bitten in a fight. It had zero effect on me.