Traditional Asian Martial Arts or MMA?

[drkaje]

Well, my friend, there are a lot of moves that doesn't leave you the ability to bite your opponent or rip out there eyes. And I've been bitten in a fight. It had zero effect on me.

Pillow biting doesn't count.

[Azn Muscle]

Anyone who has studied martial arts for a somewhat extended period of time and is good knows that there is no one style that is superior to the other.  Every style has its strengths and weaknesses.  To say one style is superior to the other shows that practitioners ignorance and lack of knowledge.

For example this thread started off with a question about Bruce Lee vs. Chuck Liddell.  So we are comparing Jeet Kune Do with MMA style fighting.

Sure if a guy who studies BJJ is able to get a guy who studies Jeet Kune Do on the ground it may be over, but what if the fight never hits the ground?  If the fight never hits the ground, BJJ is worthless.  Same with if it does, Jeet Kune Do is worthless.

No form of fighting is superior to the other.  It all comes down to the individual practitioners and their skill levels.

/ thread.

Edit:  Though for the schmoes of Getbig, I'm sure BJJ (grappling with men all day) may be more appealing and enjoyable.  Maybe that will sway the decision of some (yes homo).

[drkaje]

Anyone who has studied martial arts for a somewhat extended period of time and is good knows that there is no one style that is superior to the other.  Every style has its strengths and weaknesses.  To say one style is superior to the other shows that practitioners ignorance and lack of knowledge.

For example this thread started off with a question about Bruce Lee vs. Chuck Liddell.  So we are comparing Jeet Kune Do with MMA style fighting.

Sure if a guy who studies BJJ is able to get a guy who studies Jeet Kune Do on the ground it may be over, but what if the fight never hits the ground?  If the fight never hits the ground, BJJ is worthless.  Same with if it does, Jeet Kune Do is worthless.

No form of fighting is superior to the other.  It all comes down to the individual practitioners and their skill levels.

/ thread.

Edit:  Though for the schmoes of Getbig, I'm sure BJJ (grappling with men all day) may be more appealing and enjoyable.  Maybe that will sway the decision of some (yes homo).

You've perfectly explained why it's so popular on GetBig.

[pellius]

Anyone who has studied martial arts for a somewhat extended period of time and is good knows that there is no one style that is superior to the other.  Every style has its strengths and weaknesses.  To say one style is superior to the other shows that practitioners ignorance and lack of knowledge.

For example this thread started off with a question about Bruce Lee vs. Chuck Liddell.  So we are comparing Jeet Kune Do with MMA style fighting.

Sure if a guy who studies BJJ is able to get a guy who studies Jeet Kune Do on the ground it may be over, but what if the fight never hits the ground?  If the fight never hits the ground, BJJ is worthless.  Same with if it does, Jeet Kune Do is worthless.

No form of fighting is superior to the other.  It all comes down to the individual practitioners and their skill levels.

/ thread.

Edit:  Though for the schmoes of Getbig, I'm sure BJJ (grappling with men all day) may be more appealing and enjoyable.  Maybe that will sway the decision of some (yes homo).

Tell me friend, what kind of training do you do? And have you tested yourself against other styles?

I like when someone says, "Anyone who has studied martial arts knows...." as if you know and feel you can speak for others.

All else being equal you think an expert in Tae Kwon Do would beat Muy Thai? I can tell you first hand that after a year in Jiu-Jitsu I was already beating guys who tooled me before and were more experienced in their discipline than in mine. I was able to submit D1 wrestlers simply because they didn't know submissions and always turned to their stomachs giving me their backs. Seasoned boxers were useless once on the ground -- and it was very easy to put them there. Like I mention before I easily submitted a golden glove boxer when just a blue-belt. A twenty year black-belt in Aikido wouldn't stand a chance against your typical bouncer who has been in a few rows. Judo, unless you walk around in a gi, isn't going to have much of a chance against a muy thai fighter. As far as TMA goes, they are the weakest of the bunch as Royce clearly showed in the early days of the UFC. All those katas and choreograph moves are worthless in a real fight. Royce, a 6' 170lb ecto easily submitted all his opponents who were far more experienced than he was. And you have the gall to say "Anyone who has studied martial arts for a somewhat extended period of time and is good knows that there is no one style that is superior to the other." Well, ask Rickson Gracie who has studied martial arts his whole life and tested himself in the street and in the ring. Rorion Gracie went from school to school challenging and beating other martial artist. He had an open challenge for $10,000 to anyone who could beat them. And there were many takers. I know. I was there. We'd make an appointment for the given day, shut the school down, the challenger would show up with their students, and their "master" would get their ass kicked every time. Every single time. It got to the point where the black belts from other styles had to fight a student before they would get a shot at Royce or Royler, both in their early twenties at the time. I participated in some of those and always won. I was just a beginner. A blue-belt. I just couldn't believe how ineffective those black-belts from other styles were that they were no match for a beginner in Jiu-Jitsu.

Don't speak for people that you know nothing about.

So again I put the question to you. What kind of martial arts training do you have and how have you tested yourself?

[mame09]

1.you have to understand when talking about TMA you are talking about watered down martial arts for the masses and sports. a true Japanese jui jitsu practitioner would school most fighters including bjj because there moves and techniques arent used for sporting purpose but intended to kill people.

 
2. there was already an exhibition between ali (who just defeated foreman) vs a famous japanese wrestler and ali made all these silly rules to make it in his favour and after 12 rounds ali landed like 6 or 7 punches. 

[ Invalid YouTube link ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrXzH4WOUdc&feature=related

[big L dawg]

I've been bitten in a fight. It had zero effect on me.

OK terminator.....

[GRACIE JIU-JITSU]

1.you have to understand when talking about TMA you are talking about watered down martial arts for the masses and sports. a true Japanese jui jitsu practitioner would school most fighters including bjj because there moves and techniques arent used for sporting purpose but intended to kill people.

 
2. there was already an exhibition between ali (who just defeated foreman) vs a famous japanese wrestler and ali made all these silly rules to make it in his favour and after 12 rounds ali landed like 6 or 7 punches. 

[ Invalid YouTube link ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrXzH4WOUdc&feature=related

 Watch this one.


 

 And this one.

 Guy in a blue gear purple belt. BJJ
 Guy in a white gear black belt. JJJ

[pellius]

1.you have to understand when talking about TMA you are talking about watered down martial arts for the masses and sports. a true Japanese jui jitsu practitioner would school most fighters including bjj because there moves and techniques arent used for sporting purpose but intended to kill people.

 
2. there was already an exhibition between ali (who just defeated foreman) vs a famous japanese wrestler and ali made all these silly rules to make it in his favour and after 12 rounds ali landed like 6 or 7 punches. 

[ Invalid YouTube link ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrXzH4WOUdc&feature=related

You are correct about TMA and how it is currently practiced. Machida is showing that real Karate is very effective in a fight. But he is also proficient in the ground game. You need both now. The reason I would advise Jiu-Jitsu for the average person is that in a street fight there's no squaring off, dancing around, jabs, kicks, etc. Two guys just clash and you find yourself in the clinch. Also, in Jiu-Jitsu you become very comfortable in the physicality of a fight. The physical contact. You overcome the urge to flinch, close your eyes, put your chin up, paw with your hands. You become very use to the violent nature of fighting not to mention the conditioning aspect.

BTW, as a kid I use to read stories how the founder of Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba, use to have such brutal training sessions that after every class they had to mop up the blood. But, in his later years, Ueshiba became more of a Pacifist and took out the competitive aspect and free no holds bar training. Everything just became a choreograph dance and it loss all it's real work effectiveness.

But you bring up a very valid point that I agree with.

[pellius]

OK terminator.....

That's why I've realize that I've put myself in the very spot that I was advising Gracie Jiu-Jitsu to avoid. You can't argue these things over the net. I'm here and you're there. In the days before the net when we had these arguments it was easily settled. And rarely did it ever end in hard feelings. If I got beat then I would have realized I was wrong and there was something better.

If you are interested in being a fighter and are satisfied with the type of training that you do and feel it is effective and have proven it to yourself in the real world than more power to you.

[Azn Muscle]

Tell me friend, what kind of training do you do? And have you tested yourself against other styles?

I like when someone says, "Anyone who has studied martial arts knows...." as if you know and feel you can speak for others.

All else being equal you think an expert in Tae Kwon Do would beat Muy Thai? I can tell you first hand that after a year in Jiu-Jitsu I was already beating guys who tooled me before and were more experienced in their discipline than in mine. I was able to submit D1 wrestlers simply because they didn't know submissions and always turned to their stomachs giving me their backs. Seasoned boxers were useless once on the ground -- and it was very easy to put them there. Like I mention before I easily submitted a golden glove boxer when just a blue-belt. A twenty year black-belt in Aikido wouldn't stand a chance against your typical bouncer who has been in a few rows. Judo, unless you walk around in a gi, isn't going to have much of a chance against a muy thai fighter. As far as TMA goes, they are the weakest of the bunch as Royce clearly showed in the early days of the UFC. All those katas and choreograph moves are worthless in a real fight. Royce, a 6' 170lb ecto easily submitted all his opponents who were far more experienced than he was. And you have the gall to say "Anyone who has studied martial arts for a somewhat extended period of time and is good knows that there is no one style that is superior to the other." Well, ask Rickson Gracie who has studied martial arts his whole life and tested himself in the street and in the ring. Rorion Gracie went from school to school challenging and beating other martial artist. He had an open challenge for $10,000 to anyone who could beat them. And there were many takers. I know. I was there. We'd make an appointment for the given day, shut the school down, the challenger would show up with their students, and their "master" would get their ass kicked every time. Every single time. It got to the point where the black belts from other styles had to fight a student before they would get a shot at Royce or Royler, both in their early twenties at the time. I participated in some of those and always won. I was just a beginner. A blue-belt. I just couldn't believe how ineffective those black-belts from other styles were that they were no match for a beginner in Jiu-Jitsu.

Don't speak for people that you know nothing about.

So again I put the question to you. What kind of martial arts training do you have and how have you tested yourself?

Your arrogance shows you know little about martial arts.  I too have studied BJJ along with Kempo, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, and Krav Maga and can honestly say that if you were to ask any master of any discipline out there whether or not their style is "invincible" or "the best", the true masters will tell you that you cannot say one style is the best.

If BJJ is the best, why do others bother to train in any other style besides BJJ?  Its because it is not.  Every style has different things to offer, and if you cannot see that well that is your own belief.

Your examples are also flawed.  Unless we can clone people and find a way to create exact skill levels of each discipline, there is no way that you can have a "controlled experiment" to test which art is superior.  Who wins a fight is not dependent on "style" alone, but rather a combination of physical, mental, experience, and skill aspects.  The better style doesn't win, its the better fighter.  There is no way to gauge this.

Also just because someone is a black belt (or whatever belt), doesn't make them an expert, or a worthy fighting adversary.  I'm sure even Black Belts of BJJ can get their asses kicked by a 300lb bouncer at a night club.  Does that mean BJJ is worthless?  Of course not.

Is BJJ a great art to learn?  Yes.  Can one say it is THE BEST, well no art can say that.  If you truly believe that BJJ is superior to all (this coming from a BJJ practitioner myself), well I think you need to loosen your Tapout Beanie because its cutting circulation off to your brain.


    

[drkaje]

That's why I've realize that I've put myself in the very spot that I was advising Gracie Jiu-Jitsu to avoid. You can't argue these things over the net. I'm here and you're there. In the days before the net when we had these arguments it was easily settled. And rarely did it ever end in hard feelings. If I got beat then I would have realized I was wrong and there was something better.

If you are interested in being a fighter and are satisfied with the type of training that you do and feel it is effective and have proven it to yourself in the real world than more power to you.

No one's arguing, LOL! It's just plain silly to even say there's a superior art. Even an asswhoopin' would prove nothing more than one guy being a better fighter.

[pellius]

To comment of that vid of the black bet vs the blue belt BJJ figher it shows one of the bad habits inherent in sport Jiu-Jitsu. Most of the advance techniques in BJJ comes from the guard -- the elaborate sweeps and submissions. That's why in tournament Jiu-Jitsu guys often don't even bother going for a take down and getting the top position and just pull guard like this guy did. This is great when both are wearing a gi and no punches are being thrown but all that changes in a fight. That's why most of the top of top Jiu-Jitsu champs don't become MMA champs. They never learned stand up, never learned how to take a guy down and to defend the take down. By the time they start learning it is when they want to become professional fighters. That's why I think, as of today, a champion wrestler would have a better chance at being a top MMA fighter than a champion BJJ guy. There manner of training is better suited for fighting. Not depending on the gi, being very aggressive, knowing how to use your weight to control your opponent, being a great shape, getting the top position. There's a lot of dead time in a Jiu-Jitsu match where you can just hold on to the gi and stall. Even Helio Gracie complained about how sport Jiu-Jitsu has lost so much of it's combat effectiveness with guys relying on winning by points than submissions.

[big L dawg]

That's why I've realize that I've put myself in the very spot that I was advising Gracie Jiu-Jitsu to avoid. You can't argue these things over the net. I'm here and you're there. In the days before the net when we had these arguments it was easily settled. And rarely did it ever end in hard feelings. If I got beat then I would have realized I was wrong and there was something better.

If you are interested in being a fighter and are satisfied with the type of training that you do and feel it is effective and have proven it to yourself in the real world than more power to you.

that wasn't my point but whatever....besides you don't show up to train or roll with someone and bite them and gouge there eyes out.....

there was a fight outside a bar in my neck of the woods and a dude got bitten so bad he nearly bled out & died....later on at the court trial it came out that the dude that nearly died was a brown belt in Jiu-Jitsu..the other guy was just a drunk street fighter being an asshole....long story short the guy had tried to tie the guy up and get um to the ground but met a rude awakening....

but since your the terminator a guy could literally gouge out both your eyes blinding you for life and it wouldn't effect you in the least....I'm sure you would still armbar him huh....

[pellius]

Your arrogance shows you know little about martial arts.  I too have studied BJJ along with Kempo, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, and Krav Maga and can honestly say that if you were to ask any master of any discipline out there whether or not their style is "invincible" or "the best", the true masters will tell you that you cannot say one style is the best.

If BJJ is the best, why do others bother to train in any other style besides BJJ?  Its because it is not.  Every style has different things to offer, and if you cannot see that well that is your own belief.

Your examples are also flawed.  Unless we can clone people and find a way to create exact skill levels of each discipline, there is no way that you can have a "controlled experiment" to test which art is superior.  Who wins a fight is not dependent on "style" alone, but rather a combination of physical, mental, experience, and skill aspects.  The better style doesn't win, its the better fighter.  There is no way to gauge this.

Also just because someone is a black belt (or whatever belt), doesn't make them an expert, or a worthy fighting adversary.  I'm sure even Black Belts of BJJ can get their asses kicked by a 300lb bouncer at a night club.  Does that mean BJJ is worthless?  Of course not.

Is BJJ a great art to learn?  Yes.  Can one say it is THE BEST, well no art can say that.  If you truly believe that BJJ is superior to all (this coming from a BJJ practitioner myself), well I think you need to loosen your Tapout Beanie because its cutting circulation off to your brain.


    

I consider Helio Gracie a true master. I consider Carlos Gracie a true master. I consider Rolls Gracie a true master. I consider Rickson Gracie a true master. All believe that Jiu-Jitsu is superior to all others and all have tested themselves and proven themselves in the ring and street. They all challenged other martial arts and won. I saw a skinny weakling, Royce Gracie, who had the skill level of a purple belt beat guys more experience and physically more superior to him.

I have beat guys who were bigger, stronger and more experience than I was. I saw on a regular basis fighters from all disciplines come into the Torrance Academy during the 1990s and get there ass handed to them.

But as I have made abundantly clear, if you want to be a serious fighter then BJJ is not enough. But one thing I know to be true, if don't have some knowledge and skill in Jiu-Jitsu and you want to fight MMA you will have no chance.

[Azn Muscle]

that wasn't my point but whatever....besides you don't show up to train or roll with someone and bite them and gouge there eyes out.....

there was a fight outside a bar in my neck of the woods and a dude got bitten so bad he nearly bled out & died....later on at the court trial it came out that the dude that nearly died was a brown belt in Jiu-Jitsu..the other guy was just a drunk street fighter being an asshole....long story short the guy had tried to tie the guy up and get um to the ground but met a rude awakening....

but since your the terminator a guy could literally gouge out both your eyes blinding you for life and it wouldn't effect you in the least....I'm sure you would still armbar him huh....

Exactly.  Real world is different from UFC.

Pellius, all of your evidence based on BJJs superiority are "UFC" references and your own personal experiences.  Keep in mind that UFC rules heavily favor BJJ over other forms of martial arts.  Other arts emphasize attacks to vital parts of the body (groin, throat etc) which is not allowed in "the octagon".  

You say that "All those katas and choreograph moves are worthless in a real fight" which shows me your ignorance and your lack of understanding of other art forms.  Other martial arts practice forms to develop power and balance.  Nobody does forms/katas then goes out and thinks he can kick ass.  There is much more to the training, and forms/katas are only 1 part of the training.  

But to reiterate, your belief that your technique is superior really just shows your ignorance and the ignorance of the people teaching you.  No one can say one art form is better than the other.  Masters get their ass-kicked by every day folk in the real world.  That doesn't mean their art is inferior etc., its just reality.  

[Azn Muscle]

I consider Helio Gracie a true master. I consider Carlos Gracie a true master. I consider Rolls Gracie a true master. I consider Rickson Gracie a true master. All believe that Jiu-Jitsu is superior to all others and all have tested themselves and proven themselves in the ring and street. They all challenged other martial arts and won. I saw a skinny weakling, Royce Gracie, who had the skill level of a purple belt beat guys more experience and physically more superior to him.

I have beat guys who were bigger, stronger and more experience than I was. I saw on a regular basis fighters from all disciplines come into the Torrance Academy during the 1990s and get there ass handed to them.

But as I have made abundantly clear, if you want to be a serious fighter then BJJ is not enough. But one thing I know to be true, if don't have some knowledge and skill in Jiu-Jitsu and you want to fight MMA you will have no chance.

I agree if your goal is to be an MMA fighter than this is true.  But most do not "aspire" such ambitious goals in life.  Majority of people who study martial arts have no intention of stepping into the "octagon".   

[pellius]

Exactly.  Real world is different from UFC.

Pellius, all of your evidence based on BJJs superiority are "UFC" references and your own personal experiences.  Keep in mind that UFC rules heavily favor BJJ over other forms of martial arts.  Other arts emphasize attacks to vital parts of the body (groin, throat etc) which is not allowed in "the octagon".  

You say that "All those katas and choreograph moves are worthless in a real fight" which shows me your ignorance and your lack of understanding of other art forms.  Other martial arts practice forms to develop power and balance.  Nobody does forms/katas then goes out and thinks he can kick ass.  There is much more to the training, and forms/katas are only 1 part of the training.  

But to reiterate, your belief that your technique is superior really just shows your ignorance and the ignorance of the people teaching you.  No one can say one art form is better than the other.  Masters get their ass-kicked by every day folk in the real world.  That doesn't mean their art is inferior etc., its just reality.  

OK master, let me know when you ever get into a real fight with someone who knows what he's doing and we'll see who the ignorant one is.

[big L dawg]

Exactly.  Real world is different from UFC.

yep...you get some crazy coked up street fighter that is going for the jugular,groin,eyes,biting like a rabid dog all bets are off.....yea its real easy to say I would take um down & choke um out it's another thing to do it.& we haven't even got into the weapons like pool sticks broken beer bottles and knives....there are other martial arts that are far better at dealing with these type threats than Jiu jitsu......

[Azn Muscle]

OK master, let me know when you ever get into a real fight with someone who knows what he's doing and we'll see who the ignorant one is.

I think you forgot the most important rule of martial arts:

Rule #1: Martial arts is self-defense.  We do not provoke attacks.  We only defend ourselves.  Fighting is the last resort.  

  

[Azn Muscle]

yep...you get some crazy coked up street fighter that is going for the jugular,groin,eyes,biting like a rabid dog all bets are off.....yea its real easy to say I would take um down & choke um out it's another thing to do it.& we haven't even got into the weapons like pool sticks broken beer bottles and knives....there are other martial arts that are far better at dealing with these type threats than Jiu jitsu......

I agree.  Though BJJ is obviously superior ground technique, it really doesn't address when your opponent has a weapon (which is very common in the real world), where other martial arts practitioners will be better suited to handle the situation. 

[GRACIE JIU-JITSU]

Your arrogance shows you know little about martial arts.  I too have studied BJJ along with Kempo, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, and Krav Maga and can honestly say that if you were to ask any master of any discipline out there whether or not their style is "invincible" or "the best", the true masters will tell you that you cannot say one style is the best.

If BJJ is the best, why do others bother to train in any other style besides BJJ?  Its because it is not.  Every style has different things to offer, and if you cannot see that well that is your own belief.

Your examples are also flawed.  Unless we can clone people and find a way to create exact skill levels of each discipline, there is no way that you can have a "controlled experiment" to test which art is superior.  Who wins a fight is not dependent on "style" alone, but rather a combination of physical, mental, experience, and skill aspects.  The better style doesn't win, its the better fighter.  There is no way to gauge this.

Also just because someone is a black belt (or whatever belt), doesn't make them an expert, or a worthy fighting adversary.  I'm sure even Black Belts of BJJ can get their asses kicked by a 300lb bouncer at a night club.  Does that mean BJJ is worthless?  Of course not.

Is BJJ a great art to learn?  Yes.  Can one say it is THE BEST, well no art can say that.  If you truly believe that BJJ is superior to all (this coming from a BJJ practitioner myself), well I think you need to loosen your Tapout Beanie because its cutting circulation off to your brain.


    

 What are you smoking?

[Azn Muscle]

 What are you smoking?

You are joking right? 

ANY MASTER OF ANY ART CAN HAVE A BAD DAY AND GET THEIR ASS KICKED.  NO MAN IS INVINCIBLE. 

If you cannot see this, you are truly blind.

[pellius]

I think you forgot the most important rule of martial arts:

Rule #1: Martial arts is self-defense.  We do not provoke attacks.  We only defend ourselves.  Fighting is the last resort.  
  

BTW, Rickson Gracie never practice a kata a day in his life and had more street fights than everybody on this board put together. And this was in a vicious, violent culture in Brasil where you have a lot of nuts who will bite and gouge and whatever. He never lost.
I'm sure katas are a nice form of exercise but it is not necessary to be a good fighter. You'd be better off hitting the bag.

And what you are talking about is philosophy. Nothing to do with fighting. Brasil is a macho violent culture and fighting is NOT a last resort. You bad mouth a relative or give someone a dirty look or act like a jerk in a bar if there's a Jiu-Jitsu guy in there he'll kick your ass. There's a video on YouTube where Rickson walks up to the Luta Livre champ and slaps him across the face for mouthing off behind Rickson's back. They start going at it right there on the beach. And you never wanted to run into Ryan Gracie (who is now burning in hell).

In Brasil, it's all about fighting. Real fighting. That's why they're so tough and that's why they all train in Jiu-Jitsu.

[pellius]

I agree.  Though BJJ is obviously superior ground technique, it really doesn't address when your opponent has a weapon (which is very common in the real world), where other martial arts practitioners will be better suited to handle the situation. 

And what martial art can defend themselves against a guy who is skilled in a gun or knife? That is a whole different ball game. We are talking about one on one no holds bar hand to hand combat.

[GRACIE JIU-JITSU]

You are joking right? 

ANY MASTER OF ANY ART CAN HAVE A BAD DAY AND GET THEIR ASS KICKED.  NO MAN IS INVINCIBLE. 

If you cannot see this, you are truly blind.

 So you're talking about the bouncer been lucky?  
 Yes no man is invincible, perhaps you should tell that to "Rickson and Fedor".